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mono a mono - piano


theharmonium

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any advice out there on good -scratch that- acceptable mono piano patches or any tricks of the trade as far as editing a stereo path to sound good mono ... right now i'm working with a fantom x6 but just digging into the surface

 

for most of my live gigs stereo isn't practical ... so i've been trying to ge a passable mono piano sound for live use - not looking for a steinway (in fact i prefer a slightly darker junky sounding acoustic piano for most tunes)... seems when i hard pan right or left the patch comes out thin and if i blend them the phase stuff comes into play so its tinny ...

 

probably asking for the impossible but thought i'd throw it out there in case i missed some 'trick'

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Let the games begin :deadhorse:

 

Anybody wish to place any wagers as to how many pages this will end up being?

 

OK, sorry, to be honest, you gave a little bit of info about the kind of sound you are looking for, but the context may also be helpful. I.E. Part of a mix with a 5 piece versus solo piano. Full FOH PA versus coffee house with speakers on sticks. These all make a world of difference in my opinion. I've played gigs where the mono output from a Roland sound canvas was perfectly acceptable, and others where anything else less than a real acoustic piano was cheesy at best.

 

Some keyboards with "mono" outputs actually have fairly decent mono piano sounds (even if they were originally stereo samples) - let your ears be the guide.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Some keyboards with "mono" outputs actually have fairly decent mono piano sounds (even if they were originally stereo samples) - let your ears be the guide.

 

To my ears - the Yamaha CP300pianos - connected via a single cable out the "L/Mono" output doesn't sound all that bad. When I tried that with my Roland RD700SX - my first thought was that something was physically wrong with entire rig. My ears thought it sounded like total ass.

 

I just resigned myself to carrying the extra speaker and being happy with the sound.

The SpaceNorman :freak:
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sorry bout that - yeah i figured i ran the risk of sparking a mono stereo debate which wasn't my intention ... if i had a choice i would love to go stereo but its hard for me to rely on having it between the variety of club sound systems (venues are typically small to mid sized rock venues which hold between 200 and 500 folks) ... I run direct 90% of the time with a feed to my amp solely for monitoring purposes ... my primary band has 6 members, 4 of us play multiple instruments live so inputs can be an issue as well ... sound wise we range from pretty loud to pretty quiet ... obviously its the quiet tunes that are exposing the piano ... so I'd like to be ready to go with a good mono sound i can rely on and treat stereo as a bonus if its available ... basically just want to make myself more adaptable ...

 

I've been using my ear and made some progress with trial and error but i've hit a point where i think ive tapped out my approach - which has been to boost the low mid frequencies to reclaim some of the body and give it some reverb to smooth out brittleness ... and while its better its still soso ... i am concerned about going too much further with reverb and sacrificing a lot of cut for a only little body ...

 

so i figured there are likely parameters or effects i may be overlooking and i might be taking the band aid route with reverb when some more serious editing would get better results ...

 

 

 

 

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Does the Fantom have the same piano sounds as the Roland RDx00 series? If so there's at least one very good mono piano sound in there. On the RD700GX it's called Expressive Mono. I'm away from my RD300GX so I don't have the name of that patch available. I use it whenever I have to do mono piano.

 

The thing about Roland piano sounds is that tweaking the to the room is a necessity to get a good sound out of them. The lower the quality of the amplification system, the more tweaking is necessary. The upside is, that once you tweak it, it can sound wonderful!

 

I avoid the mono-stereo issue by using a Traynor K4 as a monitor so I'm always listening to it in "stereo". BTW - you can send mono from a K4 easily by using the mono full-range sub-woofer out. I don't know why but I've not had phasing issues of thinning out of the sound when I've done it that way. YMMV.

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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no doubt ... I've definitely heard pianos sound good mono i just haven't been able to get there with mine yet ...

 

i wish i could just bring an extra speaker but space is always tight and i usually prefer running direct unless i'm just playing a Rhodes or something ...

 

I suspect stereo patches that sound like they are miced closer in scheme would be more susceptible to good results blending because of lower phase effect between left and right ... figured i should try to blend a patch rather than just picking left or right but that may be a bad approach ...

 

 

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figured i should try to blend a patch rather than just picking left or right but that may be a bad approach ...

Just about every stereo KB I've ever used detected when the right channel wasn't plugged in and a sent a mono-summed signal to the left channel. I always assumed that the KB itself did the summing then. Does anyone know if that's the case?

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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All the rooms you'll likely end up playing in run mono, and if they don't, then they probably should unless the FOH guys really know what they're doing. At any rate, with that being the case, I never really saw the point in running my rig in stereo.

 

As far as mono goes, there's really no trick to it. What you described is basically what happens when you take a stereo source (the samples on your Fantom) and try to sum it to mono. It ain't pretty, and there's really no way around it. Your best bet is to try and find a piano sound that uses mono samples, which unfortunately is less common.

 

The only mono piano that I can think of off the top of my head (I'm sure there are more options) is the one for the Nord Electro and Stage. It doesn't come as a stock sample, but it's available as a downloadable sample set. At least on the Electro. It might come installed on the Stage. Kanker swears by it. I think it's only so-so, but the main point is that I think you'll get better results using a mono source.

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YEP - you're playing the size venues where the audience will for sure hear mono from FOH, no matter what you run. Now there is a lot of debate on the forum as do the advantages of running a stereo monitor - as far as how it affects your playing, etc. But let's put that aside for a second and just talk about FOH, which will pretty much never be stereo in your case.

 

If a stereo sample is the "room" sample type, then running ONE side of the sample COULD have good results, where summing could be OK, but will more likely cause weird phasing artifacts, etc. The horribly artificial left to right stereo sample (more LH in the left, RH in the right), can actually work OK summed, and will sound horrible with just one channel. Mono samples are ideal, and as mentioned, really don't exist much.

 

Regarding what manufacturers do with the "mono" output of a L/R pair, I think it varies by manufaturer. I've gotten wildly different results with different manufacturers. The OLD Roland stuff worked pretty well, but were probably mono samples to begin with because of the limited memory.

 

And maybe that's the key.... and OLD piece of gear with a GOOD sample. Everybody has plenty of space and does these huge stereo samples. In the old days, space was a premium, and they had to get the stereo spread in other ways (FX).

 

Comments?

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Someone needs to design a proper circuit that will sum the L/R channels and remove those pesky phasing artifacts. :mad:
As any good recording engineer will tell you, you can't fix it in the mix. You gotta get it down to tape right first.

 

Roland used to pan mono samples across the stereo field. Obviously, those patches collapsed to mono perfectly. What I would like to see is a more complex panning algorithm. You could create, from mono samples, the ambience of the player's perspective, the audience perspective from different points of view, etc... for those guys who swear that playing in stereo makes them play better, yet it would collapse properly to mono so that they don't sound like dogshit in the house while they're (allegedly) playing better.

A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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I think what you suggest would be sort of a 3-way sample: Mono plus L/R ambience. YES - that would be perfect! IMHO, of course.

 

In the days of 5.1 and 7.1 surround, you'd think they could find ways to make a piano sample work equally well in mono vs stereo.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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+1 on the Expressive Mono piano on the GX. I do find that a little EQ on it helps, though - flat, it's a bit... well, flat. For most rooms I tweak the high end up a little and the bottom down, but that will obviously depend on a) the room and b) your amplification system. For me, that's going straight out of the L/Mono jack into one JBL EON10G2.

 

I don't know about mono sample on the CP300, but I do recall that the one on the CP33 felt very compressed to my ears fine for pop/rock, not so for jazz/classical.

Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37

Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D

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Hearing myself in stereo doesnt matter much to me heck Im happy just to hear myself during most gigs and considering the headaches Ive had from running stereo Id probably play better not having to worry about it - heh

 

I hadnt spent much time with the pianos on the electro but I liked the piano sounds i got from an NE2 a few weeks ago but it was primarily the amp and it wasn't really 'true' - I ran it through a twin with healthy dose of reverb and a slight touch of tremolo to give it a little shine - it was kinda muddy and very Rhodes-ish but it was super warm and sat in the mix well with the acoustic instruments ... sorta like a piano flavored rhodes but the amp is not really workable with the other stuff I use and i'd probably get tired of all that mid squish'n

 

Anyway I digress so this evening I took a different approach rather than finding the patch with the fullest sound and tweaking from there I looked for the ballziest / grittiest patch and tried to soften it up and I think im getting better results

 

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I use a laptop and the Akoustic Piano library in Kontakt live. Beutiful samples in stereo. Did a gig recently with a mono PA, and the samples sounded horrible, thin, tinny and basically ugly. Can anybody recommend a good, playable mono piano sample set for Kontakt? I don't play a lot of piano, more Hammond, Rhodes and synths.

Turn up the speaker

Hop, flop, squawk

It's a keeper

-Captain Beefheart, Ice Cream for Crow

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Someone needs to design a proper circuit that will sum the L/R channels and remove those pesky phasing artifacts. :mad:

 

As any good recording engineer will tell you, you can't fix it in the mix. You gotta get it down to tape right first.

 

Yeah. :rolleyes:

 

They figured that one out right about the time YOKO came on the scene! :sick::(:cry::laugh:

 

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
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figured i should try to blend a patch rather than just picking left or right but that may be a bad approach ...

Just about every stereo KB I've ever used detected when the right channel wasn't plugged in and a sent a mono-summed signal to the left channel. I always assumed that the KB itself did the summing then. Does anyone know if that's the case?

 

your right but to avoid the phasing affect some of the patches get when summed i had tried hard pans which helped some but has its own set of issues ... I know its probably anecdotal but it seemed to me the best stereo piano sounds to my ears made the worst mono sums (im sure that relates to some unconscious preference i have towards a certain mic placement) ... which is probably why i was so dissatisfied live using my favorite stereo patches by default ... just realizing that has already made a big difference ...

 

last night i tried a few things and I think i might be on to a decent sound - for my ears ... needs some more work but its getting there ... basically I tried layering a variety of patches and hard panning each one to see if there was a blend that when summed had more character ... I was having best results with mixing a piano patch that sounded just slightly overdriven (which i think will cut nice for the loud banging songs) with a large hall patch to give some reverb and ambiance (a little audio spackle if you will)...

 

I'm going to try to mix in a clean third tonight when i have time and work with the levels ... but my goal is to get the performance/summed patches as close as possible before diving into effects ... i was over killing the effects and eq to fix patches when i need to try to get a base sound closer to the prize leaving effects for slight touch ups on the fly ...

 

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YEP - you're playing the size venues where the audience will for sure hear mono from FOH, no matter what you run. Now there is a lot of debate on the forum as do the advantages of running a stereo monitor - as far as how it affects your playing, etc. But let's put that aside for a second and just talk about FOH, which will pretty much never be stereo in your case.

 

I guarantee 99.9% of the audience can't tell the difference between mono and stereo.

all they hear is "plinka plinka plunk" unless you're playing an intro,like "Don't Stop Believin'" and even then you could probably play it on a Casio plugged into a guitar amp and they'd still think it sounded pretty good.

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I wonder what it would sound like to use the center channel from a surround sound processor being fed with a stereo sample.

 

Center channel should be only the content that is present in both the left and right channels. Any components of the sound (room, etc) that would typically result in phasing would be routed to the Left/Right, which could be discarded.

 

Anybody ever try this?

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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while i agree most folks can't pick up most stuff like this - i am always suprised at what people do notice ... and folks that come out to every show absolutely notice when things sound better or worse - they may not know why but they notice - not to mention folks who write about shows certainly notice ...

 

its been my experience that people do notice corny digital piano sounds particularly when set amidst warm analog guitars and acoustic instruments ... i don't want people to notice how great the piano sounds - I want people not to notice how it sounds ...

 

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I wonder what it would sound like to use the center channel from a surround sound processor being fed with a stereo sample.

 

Center channel should be only the content that is present in both the left and right channels. Any components of the sound (room, etc) that would typically result in phasing would be routed to the Left/Right, which could be discarded.

 

Anybody ever try this?

 

I'm no audio expert, so I'm not totally sure exactly why that wouldn't work, but I feel like it wouldn't. The reason I think so is that, as far as I know, 5.1 systems don't actively separate channels. The audio has to be specifically mixed in 5.1 format to work in that way with such a system. I think in that case, without the correct channel specifications, the system would would automatically sum L+R to the center channel, which would give you basically the same result. I could be wrong though.

 

 

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I wonder what it would sound like to use the center channel from a surround sound processor being fed with a stereo sample.

 

Center channel should be only the content that is present in both the left and right channels. Any components of the sound (room, etc) that would typically result in phasing would be routed to the Left/Right, which could be discarded.

 

Anybody ever try this?

 

When I listen to stereo music on my surround system, it definitely separates things... some of it even ending up in the surround speakers. Usually a lot comes out of the center - but it depends on the content. I think if you mix in 5.1, it will come out exactly that way, but if it's a stereo source, I think it still "decodes" the surround channels the way it should - anything common to L/R out the center, anything not common to L/R, not sure how it figures out the surround channels.

 

I may experiment with this - problem is it involves me dragging gear from my 3rd floor studio to my 1st floor surround system at a time when my 1yr old and 4-1/2 yr old are not around to mess with it (or sleeping).

 

I'm no audio expert, so I'm not totally sure exactly why that wouldn't work, but I feel like it wouldn't. The reason I think so is that, as far as I know, 5.1 systems don't actively separate channels. The audio has to be specifically mixed in 5.1 format to work in that way with such a system. I think in that case, without the correct channel specifications, the system would would automatically sum L+R to the center channel, which would give you basically the same result. I could be wrong though.

 

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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