Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

Shopping for a PA


Eric Jx

Recommended Posts

Usually you want your monitor mix independant so you can dial it in and no matter what you do FOH, your monitors stay the same. That would be PRE fader sends. In fact, that's why we went with the A&H Mixwizard - because we were able to set it up to do 6 PRE fader, POST EQ sends (we're using 5 monitor mixes for our IEM's). But we do not use it for FOH, just monitors, and it was $1000 just for the mixer.

 

Out of curiosity I was looking at the pics of the MixWizard3 16:2

It looks to me like Aux1 & 2 are prefader, Aux5&6 are post, and Aux 3&4 can go either way. Is that Correct?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 56
  • Created
  • Last Reply

""no-interest for x months" plan, and pay off the purchase with the money we bring in from gigs."

 

This is almost never a really good deal, if you consider that you'll pay more for the stuff to start with. You gotta do what you gotta do, but in your situation I would rent. Do you already have a list of regular gigs that pay? If not, I would not buy a PA.

 

Having each guy buy his own mic, stand, and cord is reasonable, and is his own responsibility.

 

Then going together to buy your own monitor rig, with again each guy owning his own box and cabling, and working something else out about the power amp, eq, etc makes sense.

 

All the while, renting the FOH on a per show basis or if you are lucky enough to have one in your area, renting from a store that will rent the PA to you by the month. We have a store here that you rent the gear from on a monthly basis, and after a long time, you own it if you have not returned it (when you have paid list price in rental fees, they sign it over to you). Not the best way to buy, as the payments on a loan or credit card would be the same or less. But there is no commitment that way, so you pay a little more for the ability to return it if the band breaks up. To rent a console, a couple of cabinets, a power amp and an eq is not crushing, it is simple, and you get the best deal. Renting things like mics is not cost effective in this situation.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem I see you'll have with the small mixers is not enough aux sends. You'll need them for monitoring. For example if you want a separate monitor for each vocalist you'll need 4 aux outs and 4 channels of poweramps to power them if they are passive monitors. Keep note of the aux sends.

 

The yamaha mw12cx has only (1) aux send... the mg8/2cx has NONE!

 

The MG8/2cx has something labeled C-R Out (L/R). I don't know what C-R stands for. Is that an Aux Send?

 

 

C-R out is control room monitor. This just sends the entire mix (just like usung headphones) to a stereo bus. I believe it is post fader... I think. My mg has a PFL (prefader listen) button which is good for hearing input only signal.

 

Since vocalists usually only want to hear themselves in their monitor, aux outs are great for sending a specified channel to a specified monitor.

 

It all depends want the band expects in your setup... you best ask them.

-Greg

Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent

Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you already have a list of regular gigs that pay? If not, I would not buy a PA.

 

Yes we do. We're only looking to gig about twice a month. 3 times tops.

Earlier in the year, when we had our last lead singer, We had more gig offers than we needed. A few places, after hearing us, wanted to get us into their regular rotation. We had to pass because the singer left. I'm not saying the gig were great pay, but they were there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... I'm not saying the gig were great pay, but they were there.

 

That is the important part. Not committing to a financial burden with only hopes and dreams to make the payments.

 

As to your console question, many consoles offer the ability to select the output of some combination of the Auxes to be either pre or post fade. You want prefade for monitoring, usually post fade for effects routing.

 

CR stands for control room, and should be independent of the master L/R out, but post all other faders. That way you can feed the tape deck the correct level, but turn the CR monitors down.

 

If you really only need to put vocals in your monitors and in the PA, your needs are very very simple and should be reasonably attained for little money. What size rooms are you playing, and to what size audience?

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What size rooms are you playing, and to what size audience?

 

As an example, one venue we've played has about an 800 sq foot area where the band plays. That area maybe holds 40-60 people? The Bar area is separate and probably holds another 40 patrons. Our sound spills into the bar area, but isn't meant to encompass it. Frankly these numbers are guesses as it's been a while since I've been in them.

 

 

 

Most of the places are roughly the same size. Another place we were offered a rotation spot, but the venue has it's own sound.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PS sweetwater JUST reduced the MG166cxUSB to 399$ this past week... with a xmas promo coupon, get another 15% off

 

ProfD, if your reading this, is the board you were asking about wasnt it?

-Greg

Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent

Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think either the 16 or 12-channel Yamaha MGcx models would suit just fine. I only went for the smallest model because of footprint considerations.

Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37

Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PS sweetwater JUST reduced the MG166cxUSB to 399$ this past week... with a xmas promo coupon, get another 15% off

 

ProfD, if your reading this, is the board you were asking about wasnt it?

Yep. Tempting too. But, I'll wait until after the holidays. ;)

 

I hope others are reading Bill's solid advice regarding PA system investment. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyways let us know what you end up with eric jx.

 

Will do.

 

I'm still waiting to hear back from some of the band members.

 

The guitarist just sent me a link to B-Stock Mackie SRM400v2 at ZZSounds. They are $499/each.

 

That would blow our budget, but assuming the guitarist knows how to add, it may indicate that he's willing to spend a little more for better gear. I don't know how the rest of the band feels about that.

 

Does anybody have an experience with B-stock? Positive or negative?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

B stock means different things to different manufacturers, so there is no real way of telling. To some, it is just a piece that came off of the assembly line with a blemish or something similar. B stock usually carries the same warranty, so I would not worry too much about it.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tonight's the night I need to give my recommendation to the band.

 

I think I'm going to take other's advice and opt for a slightly better mixer in the yahama line: The MG124cx instead of the MG82cx. I noticed that the 5th fader on the 82 is -10db. We're using the first 4 for vocals, and if we need to attach anything else, I would think that -10db would pose a problem.

 

Some here have expressed doubts that the SRM350s would have enough power to get the vocals over the rest of the band. Other's claim it would be fine. I'd like to get a few more opinions on this if I could. I'm really going to get a push back if I suggest expanding the budget anymore, but I don't want to get something that won't cut it.

 

So will the SRM350s be loud enough?

 

Bill, Can I ask for your opinion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So will the SRM350s be loud enough?

 

Bill, Can I ask for your opinion?

 

Count me in for a solid NO! 10in speaker? That's small dude...

-Greg

Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent

Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't read all of your thread nor have I even looked at the rest here. However I think you are foolish not to consider used gear. I have purchased 4 EON G2 15's a pair of EV subs a Yamaha 32 channel board, monitors, power amp for subs, EQ's and crossover, ALL USED and less than half the price of new. I even got a 100 foot 24 channel snake that I had to do repair on 8 channels and go it all for less than $2500. I may end up with other repairs but I would have to spend a lot to get close to the cost of new gear...

 

Ask ITGITC or Learjef if I got my moneys worth. They were at my wedding and heard this PA with three different bands.

Jimmy

 

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho

NEW BAND CHECK THEM OUT

www.steveowensandsummertime.com

www.jimmyweaver.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Usually you want your monitor mix independant so you can dial it in and no matter what you do FOH, your monitors stay the same. That would be PRE fader sends. In fact, that's why we went with the A&H Mixwizard - because we were able to set it up to do 6 PRE fader, POST EQ sends (we're using 5 monitor mixes for our IEM's). But we do not use it for FOH, just monitors, and it was $1000 just for the mixer.

 

Out of curiosity I was looking at the pics of the MixWizard3 16:2

It looks to me like Aux1 & 2 are prefader, Aux5&6 are post, and Aux 3&4 can go either way. Is that Correct?

 

 

That is the standard configuration. But there are jumpers you can move on the inside to change Aux 5&6 to SWITCHED (along with 3&4) - so when you switch 3&4 between pre/post, it switches 5&6 as well. The jumpers also allow you to select pre/post EQ - which is nice because we want them all post EQ, pre-fader.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ask ITGITC or Learjef if I got my moneys worth. They were at my wedding and heard this PA with three different bands.

 

You could have done better.

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ask ITGITC or Learjef if I got my moneys worth. They were at my wedding and heard this PA with three different bands.

 

You could have done better.

 

LOL.... CLICK

-Greg

Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent

Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't advise you about specific pieces of low budget gear for small venues. The last smallest PA on which I was involved in specing was for a hall holding 4,000.

 

I also have a 'bad' attitude when it comes to these things, as I believe that you either buy the best, which is expensive and way more than most will spend, or you buy the cheapest lightest acceptable answer. "Acceptable" is the key word here. And it will have a floating definition, depending upon whom you ask. For me it would have a lot to do with specs, reliability, support, and sound. "Price" would fall way down the list of importance. After finding a group of acceptable answers, then a price/quality comparison is in order.

 

I also believe in a budget, and a plan for the complete system; and in sticking to the budget and plan. You don't appear to have a complete plan for a system, you're just looking for a couple of boxes at this point. I'm not entirely comfortable with this style of buying.

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't advise you about specific pieces of low budget gear for small venues. The last smallest PA on which I was involved in specing was for a hall holding 4,000.

 

I also have a 'bad' attitude when it comes to these things, as I believe that you either buy the best, which is expensive and way more than most will spend, or you buy the cheapest lightest acceptable answer. "Acceptable" is the key word here. And it will have a floating definition, depending upon whom you ask. For me it would have a lot to do with specs, reliability, support, and sound. "Price" would fall way down the list of importance. After finding a group of acceptable answers, then a price/quality comparison is in order.

 

I also believe in a budget, and a plan for the complete system; and in sticking to the budget and plan. You don't appear to have a complete plan for a system, you're just looking for a couple of boxes at this point. I'm not entirely comfortable with this style of buying.

Bill

 

I guess your nose is in the air on this one, huh?

 

Speaker knowledge is speaker knowledge. Oh well... He'll find someone to help him.

-Greg

Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent

Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brother Bill has worked with higher level pro sound. I certainly respect his advice, opinion and sought his counsel in that regard. :thu:

 

The reality is, for most folks playing in restaurants, clubs, pubs, etc., mid-priced systems should work just fine. Just a matter of shopping wisely.

 

Buying new, go with matching components i.e. JBL PRX series or QSC K series. The tops and subs work together to form an idiot-proof system.

 

Work down from there depending on budget. JBL has a JRX line too. Not the same as PRX but better than Behringer, Kustom, Nady, etc.

 

With a budget approaching bottom feeders, it is better to buy quality gear USED. For example, EV, EAW, Turbosound, etc., make quality gear. It isn't cheap. On the used market, those boxes will be a fraction of the new cost since the resale value of PA equipment tanks.

 

You're certainly headed in the right direction by asking questions. It would probably be worthwhile to cruise the Harmony Central Live Sound forum too.

 

Like our own Bill, there are heavy hitters over there too. They aren't that much less abrasive either. :laugh::cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You really need to talk them into used with that budget.

 

Example:

 

(2) New JBL JRX-112M's - $479.95

 

QSC PLX1202 - $299.99 (bridge mono for 1200W into pair - 600W ea)

 

Yamaha MG 10/2 mixer - $90

 

Total: $870 plus shipping

 

Just one example after a very quick review of ebay looking at only "buy it now" auctions. You can do much better if you bid.

 

You could probably spend another $50 and get a mixer with effects built in. Buying separates gives you the ability to search for the best deals on each piece, plus you can upgrade more easily.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mean to derail the OP's thread, but...

 

Dan: How do you and your bandmates like the Yorkvilles? I've been considering upgrading my band's PA, and the precise Yorkville setup that you have has been on my possibilities list.

 

Noah

 

Noah, I am not Dan but my "parlor PA" is a set of Yorkville NX550ps (the discontinued predecessor of the NX55p) that I bought used and a generic Mackie 14. I can't tell you how often I am blown away by the quality of the Yorkvilles and how much I prefer them to the Mackies and JBLs I encounter in my rounds. The Yorkvilles just seem to be...lush.

 

I don't presume to have heard them all, or even many, but I have never been less than thriled with my decision.

Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Just an update to let you guys know what we decided.

 

We bought 2 Mackie SRM450v2 with a Yamaha MG124cx mixer.

 

I appreciate all your advice. Despite the fact that buying used would have saved us a great deal, we bought new. As I previously stated, I had band members who were deadset against the idea of buying used gear. We only had a limit amount of time to make the decision, and buying new made the time constraint easier to deal with. A wiser man than I said "politics is the art of the possible". I think that applies here.

 

Anyway, last night was the first practice we had with all the new gear in place. Wow...What a big difference. I'm not sure how much of the difference to attribute to the new gear, or just the repositioning of the speakers, but last night was the first time I could actually pick out the individual voices in the harmonies, and use that to say "Hey Jim....you were singing flat during the chorus of that last song" Before, when all 4 were singing, the best I could do was "someone was off".

 

We bought the PA with the intention of strictly using it for vocals, but about halfway through the practice I decided to run my keyboard through them instead of my amp. That had a big impact on the sound of my keys.

 

The only issue now if convincing the guitar player that the new PA doesn't give him a license to turn it up to 11.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Better keep in mind that a set of keys can eat up your available power real quick. Especially with synth leads. If you have decent backline equiptment I'd stick with just vocals thru them for now. They aren't a bad set of speakers for their price. Just don't expect concert level volume out of them. Everytime you add to the mix you feed them your overall volume will have to drop to keep from wreaking havoc on them.
SR guy thats finally decided to put his collection of toys to personal use (extremely G.A.S.'y) LOL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

convincing the guitar player that the new PA doesn't give him a license to turn it up to 11.

 

Must be a cut above the average, who would already have it turned up to 11.

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...