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[Trash Monkey]

Hey Pop, have you thought about just sitting around and practicing with a metronome? Sometimes going back to the basics can help. I'm withya on the recording takes, I do so much turd polishing in my studio it really makes me sick but I can't bite the hand that feeds me. Trash

[Lee Flier]

pop, The best way IMO to improve your groove is to play regularly along with music that's really in the pocket. It doesn't matter what instrument you play or even if you just slap along on your knees. I like to play a hand drum or percussion sometimes, along with a CD of some New Orleans funk or Motown or some such thing. Sometimes chunk along to it with an unplugged electric guitar too. Try to do things like hit syncopated beats, play with the offbeat instead of on the beat, etc. That's really the only way to develop the kinds of "muscle memory" you need to really get in the groove. Tension can get in the way too, so if you're at all tense you should do something to warm up and relax before you start recording - take a hot bath, do some drum exercises, get a massage, whatever it takes. If your body is tense it won't respond the way you want. --Lee

[miroslav]

Hey pop! Forget the playing/practicing...maybe you're overloading it. My advice...put on your dancin' shoes and hit a few dance clubs...go for a variety of music. A few hours of groovin' on the dance floors every once in a while should get your body back in sync with you brain! :) I'm listening to some James Brown as I type this...DAMN!!! Now, he has some serious groove...F-U-N-K-Y...OUCH! :cool: [ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: miroslav ]

[big K]

one word - beer or any other acholal for that matter.. not to much.. its like reverb.. a little bit good... too much bad.... way to much ... very very bad.... way way way to much- good again :)

[strat0124]

Not knowing you personally thats a tough call, cause I don't know what you respond to naturally. However, I'd say when you're putting your first track down in time with the click, play the instrument you're the most proficient on and build around that. Having someone come in and play along to your foundation can add some spontenaity, even if it is being tracked. There's no substitute for live players though, and even if you don't use those tracks, it makes for a great foundation to work off of. And adds that groove factor. I find that if I go into the process slow, that the tune sounds fresher to me when I go back in. Personally I play guitar to a click or (gasp) drum machine and then add a scratch bass line, bring in my drummer or my son who is a drummer and go to work. Some of my guitar parts I kept, some went to that magnetic graveyard in the sky. Yeah sometimes my "vision" gets altered, but thats the creative process. Most times though it goes almost exactly as I envisioned it, even better. The more I play live, the better I work in the studio. Playing music with other folks is the key, I've been the route of getting stuck in a rut when I used to do all the instruments myself, and rarely played out. But thats me. Good Luck.

[js]

The first step to recovery is to recognize that you have a problem... I support the metronome suggestion, but with a twist. A few years ago, I took guitar lessons to help me get out of a rut. My rhythm at the time sucked. The teacher suggested that I practice scales playing whole notes with a metronome - at 40 bpm. At that tempo, you have little choice but to give in and relax. It's very zen - after a while, you get in the zone, and you can play anything (16th notes, triplets, etc) and always land on the beat. Then, go dance. js

[Trash Monkey]

Pop, after re-reading the replies and your post, one thing jumps out at me. You mentioned that you loose the feel when you listen to tracks soloed. To me soloing is very misleading, in that I mean that sometimes when a track is soloed it sounds great but with the mix it just doesn't jive, and sometimes a soloed track sounds like crap but rocks with the whole mix. Maybe you're being too hard on yourself? What really matters is how the whole mix sounds, do you GET the "wall of sound"? Everyone else has put in some good points too, especialy playing live. There isn't any substitute, it just builds a certain inner groove for a musician. So here's the rub, this weekend you should...play along with some of your favorite records, then change to the metronome, then drink some beer, then listen to some funk, then go dancing. O.K. enough, but one last thought to inspire you, My wife theorizes that if a person can't dance then they're no good in bed.

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by Trash Monkey: [b]My wife theorizes that if a person can't dance then they're no good in bed.[/b][/quote] Forget the theorizing...how does she feel about your "dancin'"? :D

[Trash Monkey]

Oh...I'm always in the pocket.

[Gus Lozada]

[quote] * No sequencing or quantizing * No punch ins * No comping/editing [b][ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: popmusic ][/b] [/quote] So... do you EDIT or not ? :D

[halljams]

There are some things you should be doing if you are serious about improving your groove. Like all practice they must be done regularly, i mean a little every day on a regular basis. If you are hearing it in your head you are well ahead of most folks. Bringing it out is all about muscle control, and the only way to develop that is by Regular SLOW , slow is very important, did i mention REGULAR and SLOW practice. "Time" control will come and go with your muscle control, it's like being in physical shape... if you don't exercise you will lose it. The more often you gain and lose it the more will stay with you, but to be in top shape you have to exercise. I've heard some jazz greats say that eventually you will keep it, but jazz guys are always playin. -Metronomes are the main thing. Set it to 40 or 50 and play quarters then 8ths.(anything, scales, licks are even better) then play just the 8ths then make the metronome beat become the 2 and 4 then make the metronome beat become the 2nd 8th note of each beat then make it the 2nd 16th and then the 3rd 16th. It gets hard,especially at a slow speed. This shit will show you where you stand and i promise it won't be pretty, You can make it extemely difficult if you get into triplets, but at least it will comfirm for you that you have some work to do. The thing about metronomes is that you will confirm your own sense of groove. You will especially find yourself in this way by making sure the metronome is set to "off beats" while practicing because YOU are defining the 1. This is very good. But everyone has different groove so there is more. While the metronome exercises will allow you to stand your own (groove and time wise) while playing with others, you may still have a hard time fitting into other unfamiliar grooves. So this i where playing with records and loops is just as important. Get some Jim Keltner loops and some of these more quirky drummers and practice grooving to them. Little feat have all kinds of great grooves. Practice with the best. Hope that helps some. Jim

[aeon]

[quote]Originally posted by Trash Monkey: [b]My wife theorizes that if a person can't dance then they're no good in bed.[/b][/quote] I can’t dance, but I can tie a knot in a cherry stem with my tongue. :D

[David R.]

Yup, do the metra-gnome thing. Practice playing in front of the beat, then behind, then right on it. Try pushing it and pulling it, the beat I am talking about. Play along with your favorite records, the ones where they groove the way you want to groove. In eastern music, the percussion is always in front, driving the band. In rock, we have that layed back feel, because our drummers are, well, there are many drummer jokes to choose from so pick your favorite. The more you play, the better you get. Yee haw!!! -David R.

[cerebralborealis]

Lots of good advice posted here already, especially the part about developing muscle memory and metronome work. I get the impression that you may be playing all the parts yourself since you are a multi-instrumentalist. If so, that may be a part of your groove issue. Some of the strongest grooves are created by a group of players reacting to each other's interpretation of time. Listen to a Meters CD for a prime example of this. The individual parts may seem to have timing imperfections by stretching the beat in different ways, but collectively it creates one massive groove.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b]No matter which instrument I play, and no matter how well I know the part, I can hear very, very minute timing differences in my playing that aren't necessarily where my ears are telling me "the pocket" is. [b]* No sequencing or quantizing (unless it's a scratch track).[/b] I do use a click track, although the tempo will often vary slightly throughout the song. [/b][/quote] The click is screwing you up. The groove may not fall perfectly on the beat, or it could have an accent that is tricky to do against the click.

[gtrmac]

[quote]When everything in the arrangement is playing, it sounds fine to my ears. However, I want to become a better musician so that the tracks will feel "right" even when soloed.[/quote] I'm guessing that you would probably hear timing fluctuations even with solo'ed tracks done by the Muscle Shoals Rythym Section. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts as far as a groove is concerned. You should play with some good players and record that, see how it feels. There are enough micro-tweaked sterile recordings being done these days, what we need are more records where the spirit is left intact, warts and all.

[Alndln]

You can't expect to be in the pocket with all the instruments you play especially if you specialize in one.You say your main is keyboards right?My advice is unless you get a real passion for playing these instrument's either do one of 2 things,either hire musicians who are good at these other instruments or don't be so anal about quantizing or cheating.

[Groovepusher Sly]

popmusic, Hey man you haven't been playin' long enough! :p Seriously, 15 yrs. on keyboards means that you started around '86. Popular music around that time was heavy on the drum machines, maybe what you are feeling and hearing is the freedom you're gaining from your brain reprogramming itself to not hear straight time. Think about it most of what you hear nowadays IS QUANTIZED! All kidding aside, everybody has good points. You can also pratcice just rhythms, with your feet, hands, fingers and combinations. Another thing an old teacher of mine said, "If you can hum it, you can play it", you'd be suprised how many times you can't hum it right! So don't be so hard on yourself, five years on guitar is not a long time, and one year on drums is just the blink on an eye! You've played 15 yrs., would you hire yourself as a drummer for an important gig? Antway hope this helps, and don't throw away any more tracks! Sly :cool:

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b]In any case, I found that my concentration was shot. I then realized I couldn't play in the pocket at that moment. I wasn't comfortable or relaxed. Wasn't able to focus on the click or the feel/groove that I wanted. [/b][/quote] Apartment life and recording DON'T mix, I hear that... But seriously - clicks are sometimes evil. Some grooves involve time drifting forward and back across 2 measures; a click is going to screw that up. As an exercise, try recording some things by Zeppelin, or James Brown into your DAW. Figure out what the tempo is, and put a click to it in your DAW. *Try* to match the click perfectly across 32 measures - it won't happen. Zoom in and look at what's going on, it's very revealing: at times things are rock steady "perfect", then totally behind, then totally ahead - what makes it sound in the pocket is that the entire band is locked in perfect, not that it's locked to an arbitrary tempo.

[Chip McDonald]

Drummers can play with time against a click, but I don't think it feels the same as letting the tempo breath over the space of a few measures. Try dropping some beats out on your click and seeing if you can play what you're doing in a way that brings you perfectly back to the 1 every *other* measure. In other words, make a click track that has 1 on it, maybe 4, then an empty measure. What makes the sound of a lot of modern music based on loops is that it's a riff that has something "wrong" with the time from the start point to the end point; when it's looped it's "forced" to be perfectly in time, but what happens inbetween is "?????". Instead of forcing what you're doing, maybe try seeing if you can get it to work with a more sparse click track first. I've seen a lot of bands who have something of a "trademark" sound based on the whole band playing "bad", or off kilter. I know drummers who'll never hit 4 behind the beat, others who'll never hit it ahead. The important thing is that they don't *drift*.

[Anderton]

Here's another possible theory: Your ability to hear tiny timing differences is improving. I was not as conscious of timing until I started playing with drum machines, both because they showed me what REALLY tight timing is, and they also showed me that sometimes you DON'T want metronomic timing. The more you listen to things like digital delays, sound card latencies, and such, the more you train your ear to recognize subtle timing differences. I think what may be happening is that your muscles now need to catch up with the improvement in your hearing. I bet this all sorts itself out in 4-6 months at most. Of course, then you'll improve your hearing some more, and the cycle will start all over ... !

[tenthplanet]

I remember when a piano teacher of mine talked about internal timing or the internal metrenome. You have to feel it as a rythmic sense and that's where relaxation could come in. Something else to consider is when you're doing the whole thing yourself is how you're listening to what you're doing. In other words, you lay down a keyboard track for instance now you want a drum or percussion part. Are you listening like a drummer or a keyboard player. You might want to approach it as if you were given the part played by someone else. Now what would you do. Also, if you're comfortable with it play with other people just for the heck of it(basically jam). Always remember what George Clinton said: "Free your mind and your ass will follow." :cool:

[m2]

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: macle96@yahoo.com ]

[m2]

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: macle96@yahoo.com ]

[gae_layahoo.it]

i think every player has some kind of problem with tempo and feel,even the most proficient one...no one is perfect. personally,i have solved a lot of problems by concentrating less on the song bars and more on the tempo.practically speaking,i don't think of tempo as "1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4" anymore...it's more like "1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.....". i could be fooling myself,but i've found out that after mastering this i have improved a whole lot. counting a whole bar made me do a little "stop" everytime i had reached the fourth beat.i was kind of "sitted" on the beat...don't think i'm mad,but the sensation i have right now is that the tempo and me are,like, "riding" together.it feels like i'm on tapis-roulant.... okay,you're thinking that i'm mad and i understand it.

[Lee Flier]

Lots of good stuff here. pop, yeah, a lot of people underestimate the value of being relaxed. It's pretty impossible to have good time and feel if you're tense. When I record drummers in particular I'll usually have them warm up for quite some time and just really beat the crap out of the kit. Whatever tensions and frustrations he's brought to the room then hopefully are banished and he can play a good part. :D I think Craig's point about your hearing having "improved" to where you can hear subtle differences in timing is probably correct too. I would question, though, whether this is necessarily a good thing. As others have pointed out, most really "grooving" records are actually NOT consistent in tempo or straight on the beat. I've been constantly annoyed since the mid 80's with people making perfect time a goal, always recording with a click, etc. I just plain don't think it sounds or feels good. The music doesn't "breathe". Also a lot of tracks that might sound off when they're soloed, actually sit very well in the mix, and there's nothing wrong with that either. Sometimes it's the combination of instruments that all sort of "compensate" for each other timing-wise, that actually makes the groove happen. So, at times you may simply be too hard on yourself and you might even kill the performance by trying to be too perfect. Something to think about anyway. --Lee

[dansouth]

Yo, popmusic! I feel your pain, my man! I have to work HARD on my time, ALL the time. But I DO think that you might be a little too hard on yourself. I once read that Zappa used live rhythm tracks (i.e. recorded at concerts) as a basis for his studio albums, but he edited those tracks like crazy when he got back to the studio. Zappa had incredibly talented musicians working for him. If those guys needed a little tweaking, who am I to cop a "no edits" attitude? I also read once that Rush used overdubs and punch ins on their live recording of La Villa Strangiato. Rush! I've seen those guys in concert several times, and they are amazing players. Yet, they still needed some punches to get the recording perfect, i.e. to the level that they felt that their fans deserved. Hey, if it's good enough for Rush, it should be good enough for we mere mortals. :) Another thought. People always talk about timing when they talk about groove, but I've found that carefully placed accents are as important, if not moreso, to creating good feel. You timing just has to be ON - there's not much room for slop in either direction - but the ACCENTS are what the audience really hears. I've listened to a lot of (Motown bassist) James Jamerson's playing over the years. No matter what he's playing, you can always pick out the "one" easily, because he always plays "one" with more punch and more accent than any other beat. When I'm playing, I ask myself whether a musical novice could find the "one" if my part were soloed. If not, then I know that I need to be more conscious of accents and their placement within each measure. Maybe that will help add some groove to your playing. Best wishes for good groove!!!!

[Chip McDonald]

Have you tried recording yourself without the click, and then checking your time, to see if there is a problem and if so, where it is? ASIDE: Peart isn't always perfectly on the beat. If his vibe comes off "sterile", it's from how carefully he's placing accents in a regular way. On the old stuff his kick is usually a tad late on off beats, but in a really peculiarly regular way. Same for the snare, late by a peculiarly regular increment, but not perfectly on 2 and 4, whereas Bonham let that "breath" a lot. Same goes for Copeland, who is the trickiest to get right. Put him on a click in a DAW and you'll see he varies being ahead to being behind as part of the section he's playing, in a regular fashion, and then sometimes he'll regularly switch that around. His ride/hat stuff is all over the place, that's something drummers seldom get right. In fact, it's funny to listen for: I know one drummer that can nail the "pushing" ride/hat Copeland stuff, but doesn't do the drags, and another that does the drags right but doesn't do the pushes. Another that was a big Copeland freak that got that right, but was too metronomical with the rest of the kit. He'd get the ride stuff perfect, but instead of pushing on something like "Message in a Bottle" he's plodding along perfectly on beat - which isn't the vibe of that song. Hmm. Another guy I know does the off-time Copeland rolls really well, but nothing else. Oh well.

[dansouth]

Stewart is my groove idol!