How important is tempo?

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Second, do you ever record yourselves? I'd recommend doing that and listening back as a group and deciding if the chosen tempo works.

 

Nothing works better than the truth.

[Dave Pierce]

As far as our drummer's mindset...he gets bothered when either:

 

1) The guitarist try to slow the song down mid-song (or)

2) The guitarist stops playing mid song because he's unhappy with the tempo.

 

Your guitarist needs to be bitchslapped.

 

True for anyone who tries to influence tempo by playing out of time. That's just an absolutely buzzkill. Suck it up, and play the damn tune at the tempo the rest of the band's at! Later, you can sit down and have a chat with the drummer. Or, use Bill's hammer method, which may be more effective.

 

But not in the middle of the tune.

 

--Dave

 

[J. Dan]

I have to admit that my tempo is not the greatest. So songs that I start, if it's one where I have trouble getting the right tempo, I've asked the drummer to count me off before. That usually does the trick. Although after we've played it a whole bunch and it's burned in my brain enough, I don't have that problem any more.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

I think he plays at the tempo that he feels works best for the song. When a song is over, he will accept criticism regarding the tempo he set. However he gets bothered when either:

 

1) The guitarist try to slow the song down mid-song (or)

2) The guitarist stops playing mid song because he's unhappy with the tempo.

 

 

If you are talking about rehearsals:

 

At a professional rehearsal (such as the symphony, or any pit band for a musical or play) the conductor will stop and tweak the performances constantly. It wastes a lot of time to play a piece all the way through incorrectly.

 

So perhaps you guys need to chill out the drummer about stopping to get it right. And perhaps you need to discuss productive ways to make a point with your guitar player that help rather than irritate.

 

And here is a small suggestion... a digital metronome? once you find the tempo that works, write it down for each tune. Then when there is an argument, before anyone stops, you can check to see if there is any BASIS for an argument. Sometimes, these things are all in the mind.

 

[Eric Jx]

And here is a small suggestion... a digital metronome? once you find the tempo that works, write it down for each tune. Then when there is an argument, before anyone stops, you can check to see if there is any BASIS for an argument. Sometimes, these things are all in the mind.

 

I actually went through the trouble of counting out the BPMs of every song in our setlist and keeping it handy in my phone. The idea was if there was a tempo argument, I could tap along on my Alesis and have objective proof that the song is too fast. The problem is those tap pads don't work great and the reading jumps around.

 

I do have a digital metronome. I'll make a habit of bringing that to practice. We can use that to count in instead of drum clicks. At least on the songs the guitarist complains about.

[wmp]

As far as our drummer's mindset...he gets bothered when either:

 

1) The guitarist try to slow the song down mid-song (or)

2) The guitarist stops playing mid song because he's unhappy with the tempo.

Your guitarist needs to be bitchslapped.

 

Depends. Was it a televised gig?

 

Without being a witness to it all, I'm inclined to think your guitarist probably has a point. More so if he's also singing the tune. It obviously bugs him. I can often play tunes faster than they ought to be without it bothering me too much, but I sometimes feel like an auctioneer trying to spit out a tune that's played too fast.

 

The thing was, I was really just playing the tempo Ray Charles did. It only seemed laid back because the instructor rushed it.

 

When I was auditioning drummers for a band I posthumously renamed Double Spinal Tap, I began referring to bad drummers Russians and Dragons. I got a call from a university music teacher working on his PhD. Piled higher and Deeper. This guy was the worst Russian I ever encountered. One tune that started around 94 crept steadily up past 125. He thought he nailed it. We had a hard time being polite and professional about it, but somehow managed to pull it off.

 

Good points in this thread. Listen to Feat and Ray. Use a metronome. Know exactly what the tempo ought to be. Record yourselves and analyze the crap out of it.

[wmp]

I actually went through the trouble of counting out the BPMs of every song in our setlist and keeping it handy in my phone. The idea was if there was a tempo argument, I could tap along on my Alesis and have objective proof that the song is too fast. The problem is those tap pads don't work great and the reading jumps around.

 

Good stuff. Record yourselves, import to your DAW, line up the clip and adjust MIDI tempo. You'll find out exactly where the tempo is and how steady it is.

 

 

[Threadslayer]

A good way to tell if you're playing something too slow is if the lead singer keels over from lack of oxygen. I play with a drummer who tends to start ballads out way too slow and I sometimes feel like I'm going to pass out. I'm a marginal vocalist and sustaining some of those long notes at the top of my range a few extra 1/bps makes a big difference.

[Garrafon]

As has been said, groove and pocket are all that matters. If you can nail a groove doing a song at 120 bmp that was originallywritten at 60 bpm, great. We do plenty of songs that some nights just feel better played a little slower or a little faster. IF you can pull off the right feel at different speeds, go for it. But, musician be ware, that's not such an easily done feat. As many have expressed, the wrong speed can really mess up the groove (been there, done that).

[Phred]

Our drummer has a metronome and he starts every song, at gigs and at rehearsal. Our tempo arguments are no longer about "the song is too fast, too slow etc...". Now it is about adjusting the agreed upon tempo to better suit the dancers.

 

Some songs that we play we deliberately change the tempo, to better pack the dance floor, or sometimes to enhance the groove.

 

We sped up:

Angel of Harlem

How far is heaven

 

We slowed down:

Gimme some lovin (spencer davis)

My own way to rock (burton cummings)

[J. Dan]

Yes - it definitely depends on the song and the crowd.

 

Groove needs to be maintained where it exists. But if you're talking about something like Billy Idol - Dancing with Myself, there's no groove to begin with. Speeding it up a little doesn't hurt, and if you're trying to keep the energy level up, it goes better just a little bit faster.

 

There are songs we play slower as well. It just depends... also on where in the set list it is. Sometimes when we string a bunch of dance tunes together, we'll slightly modify tempos to make them flow better.

[Eric Jx]

Groove needs to be maintained where it exists. But if you're talking about something like Billy Idol - Dancing with Myself, there's no groove to begin with. Speeding it up a little doesn't hurt, and if you're trying to keep the energy level up, it goes better just a little bit faster.

 

Thank you for making this point. I was thinking along those lines as well but didn't know how to articulate it.

 

For instance, there is always an argument surrounding the pace of "Talk dirty to me" and "Nothin but a good time"

 

To me...Poison has no groove. Poison has no soul. Nothing is lost by playing them a little faster.

 

(I really hate poison, but the crowd likes it)

[fjzingo]

If you play really really fast you can get to the after gig party and get all the chicks faster..........

 

A few tips from me in no special order:

 

Just record youre rehearsals and gigs and listen to it afterwards, it's often quite obvious what doesn't work. Sometimes playing the right tempo doesn't help, drop a tune that never works or you disagre to much about.

 

Sometimes I find myself playin a solo and thinking, hell I'm burning good on this song.......just to realise after that I just played too fast and uninteresting. Relax is key here-create tension and expectation while playing.

 

Sometimes you need to adapt the tempo to the stage, bar, venue to get things to swing great in good groove.

 

It's often stress to start the next tune that give a too high tempo in that next tune.

 

If nothing works give you're drummer a metronome

 

Good luck with you're band and tempos, remember arguing to much about songs kills a band. (If you're not Police off course)

 

/Fred

 

[Eric Jx]

 

 

Thanks for the tips.

 

Could you please rephrase this one?

It's often stress to start the next tune that give a too high tempo in that next tune.

 

I'm missing your point.

[Road Apple]

If your drummer had any respect for the rest of the band, he would make every effort to get the tempo correct. Isn't everyone in the band expected to do their part correctly?

 

Either a cover is done correctly or it isn't. There is no in between for the good bands. I do the song as close as possible for myself and for my band partners. Our drummer expects it from us and we expect it from him. Ask your drummer if he is exempt from this theory in your little world.

 

His attitude shows a complete lack of respect for the rest of you!

[Mr. Nightime]

In the country band that I was in on the road, the bass player/band leader thought that he had a metronome in his mind, and if he perceived that a song was rushing at all, he would drag it back down, completely destroying the groove, and making it miserable.

 

Toward the end of the band's existence we recorded every night, and the entire band, without the bass player, would be required to go over the tapes. 90% of the issues we had were the bass player, but since he was the band leader, he refused to be involved on the review. On a couple occasions we got him in there, played a digital metronome along with the songs he insisted had been rushed, and proved to him that he was totally full of shit. His response..."The metronome is faulty!"

 

Now if anyone tries to pull the tempo, they'll get a serious stink eye from me. Let the song breathe, and concentrate on the groove.

[ProfD]

Tempo is more important than any other note played.

 

Even those who aren't inclined to dance wll feel the need to move something or pay attention when the pocket and groove is right.

 

I understand the dancefloor isn't important to every style of music but it doesn't lie either.

 

Make sure the drummer understands the importance of getting the tempo right for the gig and not according to the record.

[SpaceNorman]

Someday I'd like to be able to say that I've played with a band that never fought any tempo wars. Even the best groups I've played with have their moments though.

 

Matching the original isn't all that important to me - as long as the band creates a pocket and finds a groove with it. I'm OK with bumping up the tempo a bit to make a middle of the road song a little more danceable - however I prefer that the band doesn't simply jack everything up to 120 bpm so that everything feels like it's surfbeat - thinking that's the same thing as groove and pocket though.

 

I absolutely HATE when drummers and/or bass players slow a passage down as if to emote - especially when I'm playing a keys part with a 6/8 feel. I spend alot of time playing with a metronome and it absolutely frustrates the hell out of me when a drummer or bass player play the tempo mid-phrase...

[J. Dan]

I absolutely HATE when drummers and/or bass players slow a passage down as if to emote - especially when I'm playing a keys part with a 6/8 feel. I spend alot of time playing with a metronome and it absolutely frustrates the hell out of me when a drummer or bass player play the tempo mid-phrase...

 

For me, singing in those circumstances is even worse. You kind of learn to have certain phrases roll off the tongue with a certain timing. If they slow it down too much, it's hard to slow down some of those phrases and you end up having to almost put unnatural pauses in to keep it in time - it just doesn't work. It's easier to speed up vocals, IMO - to a point. They can get fast to a point where you can't get everything in appropriately as well. But vocally, I'd rather be slightly fast than slow, as long as it isn't TOO fast. Keyboards, I can adjust to just about anything as long as it's consistant.

[Mr. Nightime]

I sat in with a band a couple times where the drummer had this device that he placed on his bass drum. It connected to a pickup he'd placed on his snare, and gave a tempo readout. That way he could check the readout and confirm that the tempo was correct.

 

They are basically a blues jam band that can do one song for 10-15 minutes, and since they play agressively, it would be very easy for the tempo to creep up. By having the read out, Mike, the drummer, and hold the tempo where it needs to be, without having to resort to a click track.

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Variations in tempo - especially during a phrase, really irritate any good Ballroom Dancers that may be on the floor. Probably doesn't make as much difference to the multitude of clueless that just get on the floor and move whatever moves; but a good ballroom lead dancer is thinking at least 8 bars ahead, more commmonly planning for the next 20 or so bars.

 

Long rambling intros that have no discernable beat are another way to be sure that your group will not get called back for any dance sponsored by a ballroom group. Playing songs that no one can figure out what kind of dance is yet another. I'd rather lead dancing to one muso playing an arranger keyboard that has a consistent (even if boring) beat than have a "groove" that sounds like its grooving at 90bpm, then 10 seconds later its at 105, then its 85, etc.

 

[wmp]

I used to include language about annoying and injuring dancers in my metronome rants. A really bad drummer can make drunk people fall down.

 

 

[Dave Pierce]

I sat in with a band a couple times where the drummer had this device that he placed on his bass drum. It connected to a pickup he'd placed on his snare, and gave a tempo readout. That way he could check the readout and confirm that the tempo was correct.

 

They are basically a blues jam band that can do one song for 10-15 minutes, and since they play agressively, it would be very easy for the tempo to creep up. By having the read out, Mike, the drummer, and hold the tempo where it needs to be, without having to resort to a click track.

 

Yeah, the trap kit drummer in my Santana Tribute Band uses one of these. I think he uses it more for reference and rehearsal than for actual on-stage adjustments on the gig, but I'm not really sure.

 

While we do sometimes start things too fast, we mostly don't, and once we've established a tempo for a tune, we're pretty solid on staying with it.

 

--Dave

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

"the drummer had this device that he placed on his bass drum. It connected to a pickup he'd placed on his snare, and gave a tempo readout. "

 

I'd be curious to know more about tht device. Might be nice to own one, depending.

[Dave Pierce]

I'll ask Arturo Saturday night at the gig...

 

--Dave

[wmp]

Here's one.

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Here's one.

 

could be handy, and its reasonably priced.

[Joe Muscara]

Here's one.

 

This will also help solve band disputes over song tempos.

[fjzingo]

What I meant was basically, It's quite boring with long breaks between songs, for example when you play funk, soul disco for a dancing crowd. They don't wan't to wait ages for the next tune.

 

Sometimes this stress in starting the next tune leads to a band setting off in a to high tempo.

 

/Fred

 

 

Thanks for the tips.

 

Could you please rephrase this one?

It's often stress to start the next tune that give a too high tempo in that next tune.

 

I'm missing your point.

[grooveclock]

Hello,I'm new to this particular forum and I recently authored a book on the subject of tempo.It's about 60 pages and is currently in design.I'm looking for feedback.It just about covers everything I've read hear.No devices per se, just training exercises and methods I've used beyond the metronome for the past 35 years.Hit me up at L-seven@att.net for a preview