Where to put my vocal monitor??

[Phred]

Hi all,

 

I have a question that has plagued me since I started singing live. It might seem silly, but hear me out...

 

I never know the best place to put my monitor. The only thing coming out of my stage monitor is vox, as I am hearing my keys through an amp behind me.

 

My keyboard setup is fairly typical, 88 note keyboard on the bottom, 61 on top of that. Vocal mic on a boom style mic in front of those and hanging over the boards (Shure beta 58).

 

So, the ideal spot for me to hear my voice properly is beside me, giving me a side wash of vocals. However, I would worry about feedback through my own mic, so I don't tend to do that.

 

Another option, is to put it well infront of my keyboards, kind of shooting up over them at my head. I have two issues with that. 1) I don't always have the stage room for that. 2) in order to clear my boards, they have to pretty far away, and I wonder about if it is too far away to hear properly.

 

What almost always happens is I get it (or part of it) shooting directly at the bottom of my bottom board, and spend some of set one repositioning it and hoping that I don't make anything feedback.

 

Am I alone in this, or do others have similar issues?

[Sven Golly]

Phred:

 

I share a similar dilemma; the solution is to always have it to the side; depending on your mic, feedback should not be an issue if the two are at right angles to each other (see the other 'mic' thread today for more discussion about mics and response patterns).

 

You don't mention how you're set up on stage, or if you're in a band situation or solo; if you're in a band situation, I've often angled the boards so that they're at an angle (instead of facing directly out at the audience, angle inwards towards the center line of the stage (i.e. if you're on stage right, angle so you're facing left, so your right shoulder is closer to the audience than your left), and place the monitor on the audience side of your setup. That allows you to angle your mic so it's away from the monitor. It means you have to turn towards the audience somewhat when you're singing to make eye contact, but it works well.

 

In short, NEVER have your keys in between you and the monitor.

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Tori Amos has, along with a semicircular row of monitors behind here, two studio monitors on stands on either side of her, slightly in front of her, at head height, shooting directly at her.

 

Most other keyboardists just stick a floor wedge in a convenient spot on the floor on whatever side of them has room, and adjust their levels accordingly.

[Mr. Nightime]

I used to use a powered Hot Spot on a mike stand slightly in front and to the left side.

 

Now that I'm back to floor monitors, it's directly to the left side, at about 90 degrees.

 

Like Sven said, there should be no problem with feedback due to the response pattern of the mike. I personally use an EV N-DYN 367, which has superb feedback cancellation properties, as well as an extra 10db of output over the Shure mikes. I've been directly in front of the mains, and not gotten feedback. The other guys have Sennheiser's so feedback is not really an issue.

 

It helps that I'm a strong singer, so my mike doesn't have to be all that hot.

 

If you're encountering feedback on stage, cup your hand over the ball of the mike one at a time. The offending mike will start to feed, helping you to identify and correct the culprit. Sometimes, especially with a low feedback, testing one mike can cause another to roar, making it difficult to locate the offender.

 

 

[CEB]

I play on the right side of the stage. I stopped using floor monitors a few years ago because I could never get happy with them. I think floor wedges were designed for people who stand up.

 

Now I just have my vocal sent through the right side cross-stage monitor. That seems to work well for me.

[RedKey]

Considering your mic's super cardioid polar pattern, side fill should be just fine.

[jimmymio]

A vocal monitor on the side of the KB has been a pretty standard procedure for as long as i remember. Shouldn't be a big problem. As Redkey mentioned, a super-cardioid is ideal in this application because it rejects sounds from the side.

JP

[midinut]

Where to put my vocal monitor?

 

In your ear. Get an IEM. You can find a Shure PSM200 on ebay for $200-400 and you'll never want to go back. The trick is to get everyone on stage using them. Totally eliminates any concern about feedback, saves your hearing (and the other ones using them), everyone has control over their own mix. Most boards with multiple buses allow for that many "mixes". Just a thought.

 

I've had the same problems you are having. In several bands I've played in recently, I couldn't use my IEMs so had to use a floor wedge. I feel your pain.

 

After using them since purchasing them ... I'd choose IEMs every time.

[Maze Sound]

IN ears are a great way to go. Some people have a hard time getting over the slight bit of delay, but with use it becomes much easier. Another thing that helps with the transition is to place a boundary mic in the mix. Helps make the sound you hear a bit more like what you are accustomed to from using floor monitors. A proper mix through a good set of floor wedges doesn't need to be loud. The key is the quality of the wedges and the mix thats fed to them.

[CEB]

I tried those once. A sound contractor wanted me to use those a while back at a festival show. It was weird. I didn't like it all. You know how old people get set in their ways.

 

In ear is supposed to be the way to go though.

 

[Eric Jx]

Do all IEM's have a delay?

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Do all IEM's have a delay?

 

should not be enough to detect.

 

I was working monitors on a stadium country show, back when the Dixie Chicks were not headliners. They were on the bill, and they were having a lot of fun and their crew and band were really nice, and on the last song, one of the crew ran out and tapped the drummer on the shoulder. He looked around, and th crew guy got him to stand up. When he did they stole his throne. Another guy pulled away some of his cymbals. Then another crew guy pulled out his in-ears. There were no amps on stage, everything was in-ear. Everyone was laughing, including the girls, when finally someone realized that the band couldn't end the song... they were stuck vamping there, and the girls were starting to look helpless. One of the crew guys ran out the hi-hat, and stuck the guys molds back in his ears, and they ended the set. It was pretty funny, but I would not like to have been in the inevitable meeting that must have happened afterwards.

[Phred]

Thanks guys...

 

I am talking about it a band situation.

 

This has all been very helpful. I will try for a side wash and hope that I don't feedback.

 

IEMs have always interested me, but it is a pretty big change to how we are currently doing sound I would think, and a potential investment for the whole band (including the drummer who doesn't sing, and doesn't currently use a monitor at all). Most shows that we do, we only run vox and Kickdrum through the pa, and the rest of the band is through our own amps, and not through the PA at all. I suspect the holy grail IEM solution involves everthing through the pa, including drums to achieve the perfect in ear mix. Is anyone using in ear for vox only? If so, is there ever an issue with the earbuds blocking out the sound of your amp, drums whatever?

 

Thanks again.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Thanks guys...

 

I am talking about it a band situation.

 

This has all been very helpful. I will try for a side wash and hope that I don't feedback.

 

IEMs have always interested me, but it is a pretty big change to how we are currently doing sound I would think, and a potential investment for the whole band (including the drummer who doesn't sing, and doesn't currently use a monitor at all). Most shows that we do, we only run vox and Kickdrum through the pa, and the rest of the band is through our own amps, and not through the PA at all. I suspect the holy grail IEM solution involves everthing through the pa, including drums to achieve the perfect in ear mix. Is anyone using in ear for vox only? If so, is there ever an issue with the earbuds blocking out the sound of your amp, drums whatever?

 

Thanks again.

 

in ears need a whole band mix, but it could be from a single mic. I'm not the big proponent of in ears as so many others, because I see them abused too often. Too many people who have not bothered to learn to use this potentially damaging tool make up their own rules along the way, and that can be very very bad.

[ProfD]

I can imagine how IEMS could be beneficial if used properly. However, since I have to 'feel' the music, my preference will always be a floor monitor or sidefill.

[J. Dan]

First, I've never heard of delay in IEM's and I've been using them for a few years now. If anything, it's tighter because you don't hear all the bounceback from the room.

 

As far as "feeling it", that's what the PA is for. I can feel plenty just fine from that... a 6 or 8 18" subs do the trick just fine, no need for monitors. Of course practice with them is always quite a different story.

 

Regarding room or ambience mics, usually the vocal mics pick up enough room for me. Not much, but for instance if the sound guy has an echo on the lead vocal, you can tell. It's not prominent, but you can make it out - that's about all I wanna hear from the room.

 

Sounds weird at first, but is so much better. Once you get your mix dialed in, everything is so clear and tight. And when I pull mine out during break and hear how loud the break music is compared to what I was listening to, it makes me realize how much I'm saving my hearing. When it's so clear, it doesn't have to be loud at all. It seems loud because you can still feel it from the P.A., but it's not.

 

Implementation:

 

It works best if everyone's on them, but at a minimum, everything's gotta run in your IEM mix. Technically, I suppose you could have the sound guy run you a separate monitor mix to your IEM's, but I would never trust anyone to do that.

 

Get a splitter snake, or rackmount splitters & snakes. Everything that would normally go to FOH, goes to the splitter, then you drop them a snake with all their channels. The other half of the snake goes to your monitor board, which should have enough sends to give each person their own mix. We use the A&H MixWizard - 6 sends that can all be configured Post EQ, Pre Fader, and 16 channels for $999. A 16 channel splitter will run you more like $1500-$2000 for anything of decent quality. A&H also makes a monitor board for $2000 that has the splitter built in, 16 channels, and either 12 mono mixes, or 6 stereo mixes.

 

Put the splitter the mixer, and everyone's wireless IEM transmitters in a rack. Each person in charge of their own mix via their row of knobs - if they don't like their mix, it's their own fault.

 

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

"I've never heard of delay in IEM's... "

 

You're thinking of the commercial single station units. The various digital multiuser ones do, (the ones that use ethernet cables, etc) but as I said, it should not be detectable.

[SpaceNorman]

I use a "personal PA" for keyboard amplication - a small Yamaha mixer, a QSC power amp and a pair of JBL floor wedges which I place to the left and right of my piano bench. I simply take AUX send with my monitor mix from the FOH board into a channel on my mixer and run it through the my keyboard system. I can control the keys vs monitor balance on my own. It works like a charm.

[Phred]

Me being picky, because it's friday, but to me no delay is the same as undetectable delay.

 

 

Happy friday.

[J. Dan]

I use a "personal PA" for keyboard amplication - a small Yamaha mixer, a QSC power amp and a pair of JBL floor wedges which I place to the left and right of my piano bench. I simply take AUX send with my monitor mix from the FOH board into a channel on my mixer and run it through the my keyboard system. I can control the keys vs monitor balance on my own. It works like a charm.

 

That's how I did it in my old band. I had a Rolls line mixer and a Crate powered monitor. The only thing I noticed is that I had to make sure the keys were NOT in the mix they sent me, or else sometimes it would cancel out my keys - I guess it got inverted somewhere along the way. It took me a while to figure out why I couldn't get my mix right til one day I figured out that I could almost completely get rid of my keyboards in the mix by turning them UP. BTW - the crate monitor was a 10" 2-way, but I put it on top of my rack (which sat on an x-stand), so it was right at ear level - so I didn't need much. I usually had it slightly to the side.

[SpaceNorman]

... The only thing I noticed is that I had to make sure the keys were NOT in the mix they sent me, or else sometimes it would cancel out my keys ....

 

Most of the time I'm the "they" since I'm usually running sound as well. My starting monitor mix for ALL monitor mixes is "vocals and sax only". Then - depending on how large the stage is - I might add a little keys to the wedge mixes and a little guitar to the send that runs to the keys rig.

 

The thing I have to be careful of is including the monitor send in the send from the keyboard mixer to the FOH board. I use Channel #1 on my keys rig for the monitor feed - and actually have little colored labels next to what must be IN and ON in order to INCLUDE it in the right sends and equally important EXCLUDE it from the wrong ones.

[J. Dan]

I use Channel #1 on my keys rig for the monitor feed - and actually have little colored labels next to what must be IN and ON in order to INCLUDE it in the right sends and equally important EXCLUDE it from the wrong ones.

 

Right, that hardwired feedback loop is a bad thing.

[SMcD]

I usually put the Traynor K4 behind me (I mic it sometimes, depending on the size of the venue) to hear my keys, and get a vocal monitor somewhere between me and the drummer. On smaller gigs, where the sound from the other side of the stage can carry over to me unassisted, the guitar/bass/keys don't run, and we rely on the projection of the amps instead. I've never had a problem with being unable to hear the other people in the band.

[JeffLearman]

Do all IEM's have a delay?

With analog IEMs, the delay is LESS.

 

Sound takes about a millisecond to travel a foot. Monitors are rarely closer than 3 or 4 feet. The delay of analog an anlog headphone amp is way less than a millisecond.

 

I don't know about the latency for digital units, in which case it depends on the system architecture.