WHY is it so hard to PERFECTLY tune a guitar?

[rocknrollstar]

Hi everybody.

 

Over the last twentysum'pin years of my musical career I have struggled many times to get guitars in tune. Believe me, technically I knew HOW to tune a guitar, even twenty years ago. Still, there were so many situations, even after carefully tuning by ear or with a tuner, that guitars sounded awkward with certain chords, in certain positions or in general. Step by step I gathered information and knowledge - and even after 18 years (around 1998) somebody showed me a method to tune (especially acoustic guitars) which I had never heard of before, but which proves to be better than anything I did before.

 

I had a guitar student ask me two weeks ago, why his tuning method would never result in a well-tuned guitar. I told him the reasons and I figured I could make a little video tutorial to help everybody to understand, why tuning a guitar IS a challenge, even for a pro.

 

I posted the first part of this video tutorial on my blog site:

Part 2 and 3 will be done within this weekend. I'll post it in this thread.

 

How to perfectly tune a guitar - Part 1

 

I REALLY, REALLY hope this is helpful for you. There might be stuff, you already know, but I bet my favorite guitar there is some information that you have not thought of so far.

 

Stay TUNED,

Holger

 

[A String]

99% of the time, tuning issues are due to bad guitar set ups.

[rocknrollstar]

99% of the time, tuning issues are due to bad guitar set ups.

That's one of my points. I have also heard bunches of people who couldn't fret a guitar without bending a string... They still asked me, why their guitar doesn't sound right.

I have also had situations in studios especially with acoustic instruments, when the tuning-issue turned out to become a nightmare. Mandolins, twelve string guitars etc can sometimes be a p.. in the b...

[OldTuna]

It's not that difficult to tune a good guitar.

Before tuning, there are a few factors to consider as to getting your guitar in tune and a definite method to follow.

 

First: the condition of the instrument itself. If the neck and action are not set right and the intonation is out, you'll never get it in tune.

 

Second:

Assuming that you are using an electric tuning device....always use a pick when you tune. Be sure that your pick attack is strong and consistent.

Unless you play sitting down, when tuning, always stand with the guitar on a strap. This will equalize the tension on the neck and body. Basically speaking, tune it as you play it.

 

NOTE:

Before stringing the guitar, sharpen a number 2 pencil and darken the string grooves on the nut. It adds a bit of dry lube and also stops the strings from suddenly jumping while tuning.

 

Third:

The strings should be the correct gauge and be new or fairly new. Old strings lose their accuracy as well as their tone and timbre. Two or three loops around the tuning peg is sufficient for a stable tuning. Cut off any excess string. That "Nashville Skyline" look might be cool and "folksy" but it does nothing except add a possible rattle or other extraneous noise...especially on acoustic guitars. TIP: The "Martin Lock" stringing technique is a valuable asset and is well worth learning.

 

Another note:

Make sure that new strings are stretched a few times after they are installed. Always apply a little downward pressure to the short section of string between the nut and the tuning pegs, too. It helps to eliminate any unnecessary string tension between the nut and the tuning peg.

 

Try to have the same solid impact each time you pluck the string. Tune more to the attack of the string more than to the decay. As strings decay, the pitch can shift a bit. It's easy to see this happen if you use a Peterson Strobe tuner, for example.

 

If anyone's interested in the tuning method I mentioned above, I'll be glad to continue this. For now, I hope this is logical and useable information for those who need it.

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

The physics of the length of the G string, coupled with our desire for thin, low-tension strings is the problem. Longer scales and thicker solid G strings have better intonation. Also, one of the things that you mentioned... people often bend the strings out of tune while fingering various positions.

[Scott Fraser]

It's not HARD to perfectly tune a guitar, it's IMPOSSIBLE. It's just a fact of physics that the equal temperament system means some intervals are never perfect, & since we insist on playing in any & every key, we're just stuck with some intervals that are always going to be off. 'Close enough' is as good as it's ever going to get, unless you go fretless, have impeccable intonation chops & can temper all the intervals in any chord (assuming there's never any harmonic ambiguity in your voicings.)

So, get close, but don't beat yourself up over the stuff that can never sound right on a fretted instrument.

 

Scott Fraser

[OldTuna]

Nice point, Bill. I remember that Ry Cooder used wound G strings on some of his guitars. Seemed to work for him....although, he is Ry Cooder.

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Nice point, Bill. I remember that Ry Cooder used wound G strings on some of his guitars. Seemed to work for him....although, he is Ry Cooder.

 

That would be worse.

 

The tension and the thickness are at issue. Wound G strings would not be as tight, so they would be even less prone to proper intonation up the neck. What you need (using a standard guitar...) is a thicker solid G. I used to use 22s or 20s when I had my sets custom pulled. (No big whoop, just Ernie Ball singles). I also liked very heavy E and A strings, but the high E, I tried 12s for a long time and just pulled my cuticle down, and bled too much. I use 10s today.

[Gruupi]

Classical Guitars are even worse, very small temperature changes can make a guitar go out. For Instance, just the physical act of playing the guitar for a few minutes causes the 3 plain nylon strings to go out.

 

Even if the guitar was perfectly in tune, just pressing the strings harder can make a difference, and even more so since we rarely can press everything down straight. If you are going to be recording and have a particular chord that sounds out, you could tune just that chord.

[GreySeraph]

lol threadstarter, you've opened a can of worms. Really, I dont think any of these guys have even bridged upon a third of the reasons why tuning will never be perfect.

[anderz]

Very nice!

[Windjammer]

It's not HARD to perfectly tune a guitar, it's IMPOSSIBLE. It's just a fact of physics that the equal temperament system means some intervals are never perfect, & since we insist on playing in any & every key, we're just stuck with some intervals that are always going to be off. 'Close enough' is as good as it's ever going to get, unless you go fretless, have impeccable intonation chops & can temper all the intervals in any chord (assuming there's never any harmonic ambiguity in your voicings.)

So, get close, but don't beat yourself up over the stuff that can never sound right on a fretted instrument.

 

Scott Fraser

 

+1

[Larryz]

the word "perfectly" seems to be the biggest problem....get as close as you can and go for it...re-tune after each set of 10...during the set if necessary...strings will go out of tune just from bending them for a while and sometimes for no reason at all, sometimes they stay in tune all night long....it's them little green gremlins that are doing it to you.

[rocknrollstar]

Here is my FAVORITE way to tune a guitar by ear. It's actually extremely simple, but delivers great results:

[video:youtube]

I know, there are actually a lot of people doing it this way, without even thinking about it as special. I had somebody show it to me after 15 years of playing. It helped a lot!

 

Holger

[Larryz]

Good presentation on tuning by ear...should use a tuning fork or a pitch pipe or piano note to begin with on the first A note so you get a nice starting point...I have found octaves to be the best for me but will try the bending and interval concepts too next time I'm playing around with it...thanks for the post rocknrollstar....I still need the tuner and like it for silent on-stage tuning and noisy situations (even if it's just one other guy tuning up at the same time) this by-ear method can be used to check your tunig between songs while practicing too...

[desertbluesman]

WHY is it so hard to PERFECTLY tune a guitar

 

Has not been hard for me to do since I got my first electronic tuner waaaaaay back in the last century. At least I can get them close enough so's I can't hear the little bit that it may be out.

 

Since the guitar is not a perfect instrument, how can you get it tuned perfectly?

[Larryz]

I like the snap on vibration tuners the best, mine has a lighted dial and a swing-needle which makes it a great tuner while others are making noise on a dark stage and it gets the job done...no chords to plug in and the battery lasts well over a year...

[d halfnote]

The best thing, I think, is not to use any single approach but a combination of fret-to open string matching, harmonics & chord checks in various keys.

One might even find that that last point is paramount, playing in particular keys may be an important factor in "sweetening" the pitches.

 

As Scott F. pointed out, there's an inherent problem in getting guitar, piano, or any instrument with fixed pitches in actual tune...& even when we get close, there's a difference that creeps in over the range of several octaves that's inherent in the nature of audio physics.

 

Suggested reading: Temperament by pianist Stuart Isacoff, a detailed history of the problems & attempts at solving them in European music.

A brief detailing can be found here:

http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/0375403558.asp

 

Interestingly, many of the world's cultures have solved this problem by downplaying harmony & sticking to fewer keys, whereas in the West it's a mark of skill to be able to play in many keys.

 

I've begun to wonder whether one could actually be a better player, however, if they concentrated on the mastery of a single key or position, rather than spending all the time needed to be able to transpose with ease.

[Gruupi]

I audited a master class with David Russell earlier this year and its amazing how much detail some players things about. One thing that came up in a discussion on vibrato was on certain notes he will alter how much he pushes or pulls the string for certain notes in context. (classical players rock their fingers up and down the fingerboard as opposed to side to side on steel string).

 

While it would be impossible to stretch and pull every single note in tune, it wouldn't be out of the question to adjust intonation on an out of tune note say on a hanging chord in a recording situation. Not an easy technique I would think, but if a chord is really bothering you it would be worth working that out.

 

For all reasons mentioned in this thread there isn't really going to be an in tune guitar as we now know it. Too many variables. Even if you had staggered frets and a perfect setup, small changes in temperature and humidity are going to reset everything from minute to minute and day to day. Just get close and get the important notes and chords right by making adjustments.

[GreySeraph]

WHY is it so hard to PERFECTLY tune a guitar

 

Has not been hard for me to do since I got my first electronic tuner waaaaaay back in the last century. At least I can get them close enough so's I can't hear the little bit that it may be out.

 

Since the guitar is not a perfect instrument, how can you get it tuned perfectly?

 

Seems like a bit much when you can just use a tuner.

[mavick]

The Major Third Interval bt. your G & B strings is the main issue because that Interval is 14 Cents out of tune in the 12-TET to start with................

[Caevan O’Shite]

FWIW, I've been pretty happy using the "sweetened" Guitar Tempered-Tuning on my Peterson StroboStomp tuner (tagged as "TMPR:GTR" on its LCD display-screen)...

 

I used to tune to a "regular" digital-tuner and then tweak the 3rd and 2nd strings by ear, with randomly inconsistent results.

 

But now, I just use that StroboStomp on that tempered "GTR" setting, pull any slack out from behind the nut and saddles by tugging a little on each string, and then do a final re-tune with the StroboStomp and... aaaah! Now I can just play...

[Billster]

WHY is it so hard to PERFECTLY tune a guitar

 

Has not been hard for me to do since I got my first electronic tuner waaaaaay back in the last century. At least I can get them close enough so's I can't hear the little bit that it may be out.

 

Since the guitar is not a perfect instrument, how can you get it tuned perfectly?

 

Seems like a bit much when you can just use a tuner.

 

I think you're kind of missing the point. You can easily tune the strings with a tuner, but tuning the guitar involves having acceptable tuning across the entire range of the instrument. The central problem is the intonation of the 2nd & 3rd strings as related to the intonation of the other strings. I think that conflict is one reason some people tune in fourths across the entire guitar (E-A-D-G-C-F low to high).

 

If you tune the guitar for "perfect" chords in the first position, when you get up around the 8th or 9th fret, you have intonation problems; the same goes for the reverse. So you have to compromise the perfection of both ends of the neck in order to have acceptable intonation for most positions on the neck.

[Guitar Slinger]

When my ear developed to the point I could hear chords out of tune it would drive me crazy that I could tune my guitar to play a perfectly in-tune A chord or a perfectly in-tune E chord but that I couldn't get both chords to play perfectly in-tune when switching between the two.

 

Then I read a book about how Bach would write music in specific keys for the harpsichord and then tune the harpsichord so it would play perfectly in tune only for that key. The problem with a standard tuned harpsichord, later a piano, being the fact that the instrument was generally tuned to an even-tempered scale.

 

We have that same problem with our even-tempered tuning on the guitar and yes, the fact that the 2nd and 3rd strings are tuned to a Major 3rd interval is a big part of the problem. Hence the reason my A chord or my E chord would play in tune but not both of them.

 

So we have had to adjust our definition of in-tune, with perfectly in-tune being exact harmony without the pulsing 'beats' you hear in out-of-tune notes. In-tune for our even-tempered scale means some intervals will produce those beats that will drive you crazy if you focus on them. A heavily distorted guitar will bring those out-of-tune intervals even more which is why it sounds so much better to play perfect 5th power chords through your cranked up Marshall.

 

There comes a point when you just have to accept some slightly out-of-tune intervals and realize that most people can't hear it.

 

That's my 2-cents on the whole tuning issue.

[Shoes]

It's not HARD to perfectly tune a guitar, it's IMPOSSIBLE. It's just a fact of physics that the equal temperament system means some intervals are never perfect, & since we insist on playing in any & every key, we're just stuck with some intervals that are always going to be off. 'Close enough' is as good as it's ever going to get, unless you go fretless, have impeccable intonation chops & can temper all the intervals in any chord (assuming there's never any harmonic ambiguity in your voicings.)

So, get close, but don't beat yourself up over the stuff that can never sound right on a fretted instrument.

 

Scott Fraser

 

+1

 

+2

 

Can't be done my friend. You can get close and you can shift about where you want that close to be perfect but someplace it's going to be relative at best.

[Larryz]

to quote Brian Setzer: "it's close enough for rock & roll"....

[Eric VB]

It's not HARD to perfectly tune a guitar, it's IMPOSSIBLE. It's just a fact of physics that the equal temperament system means some intervals are never perfect, & since we insist on playing in any & every key, we're just stuck with some intervals that are always going to be off. 'Close enough' is as good as it's ever going to get, unless you go fretless, have impeccable intonation chops & can temper all the intervals in any chord (assuming there's never any harmonic ambiguity in your voicings.)

So, get close, but don't beat yourself up over the stuff that can never sound right on a fretted instrument.

 

Scott Fraser

But is it possible to "perfectly" tune a guitar to equal temperament? That should be the goal, no? Pianos are "perfectly" tuned to equal temperament all the time, right? (Well, there was a thread about this some time ago that brought up some of the Tom foolery necessitated by the 88-key range of that instrument, human perception of pitch, yadda yadda, but the equivalent on guitar would be to give each string it's own set of frets and then tweak their placement, not in how to tune the open strings.)

 

I think Craig has the right answer: it takes a quality guitar with a proper setup. That should get you usable equal temperament.

 

Don't want to put words in Bill's mouth, but I think he's getting at the fanned-fret approach to account for each string's ideal scale length. Don't know if I'd be willing to put up with that system just to be slightly more "in tune".

 

You can get around the scale length problem by trading in your guitar for a harp, although you'll still be stuck with equal temperament.

 

But if you want to play perfect ("sweetened") intervals all the time, look no further than violin-family instruments. Play fretless guitar (as Scott mentions), never play open strings and fine tune each interval yourself. Too hard to hold chord shapes that way? Make a fretless guitar orchestra, just like a "string" (violin-family) orchestra, and have everyone play one note at a time. Or maybe just take up violin if you're going to go through all that trouble.

 

Yes, you can "sweeten" the tuning for a particular key, but how's that work when you're on stage? Do you play every song in the same key (and potentially bore your audience to death)? Do you bring 12 guitars to each show and swap when necessary? Do you bring only one guitar and retune it between every song?

 

From a practical standpoint I still think Craig has the best answer.

[Scott Fraser]

But is it possible to "perfectly" tune a guitar to equal temperament?

 

Yes, & that is what we aim for, while accepting the inherent out of tune-ness that equal temperament imposes, especially on thirds.

 

That should be the goal, no?

 

I think it's as close as we can get for chromatic playing. If playing modal music in just one key, we could get the open strings to favor that key.

 

Pianos are "perfectly" tuned to equal temperament all the time, right?

 

There's actually quite a range of subjective interpretation going on in piano tuning. How much stretching to incorporate on each side of the middle range is not an agreed upon matter. Different tuners use different amounts of offsets in different parts of the instrument to get what they feel is in tune, & this is what constitutes the subjective impression of a good or bad piano tuning job. Some tuners aim to get as close to perfect fifths as possible. My preferred tuner aims for good tenths & his tunings last a long time & please a lot of clients here in my studio.

 

Scott Fraser

[Larryz]

Try an electric piano/keboard instead of acoustic, just hook up the tuner, check it at concert A at 440 and suspend the note, reach back and turn the sharp/flat adjustment knob until the meter pegs high noon, and Wah Lah, the whole keyboard is in tune...not so on the guitar...you can have 12 guitars on the rack (chromatic) but 7 will probably do the trick if you want to chage for each key up to the 12th fret, then you'll have to double up the rack....better to just get the one you're playing as close as you can and go for it...I take two and change every set of 10 songs and/or check tuning if I want to stay with the same one and check tuning before I start the next set...check the tuner and fine tune by ear if it doesn't sound right...the registers as you travel up the neck and while playing open chords will also cause differences depending on how your guitars are set up..

 

***also listen for those little gremlins that make you sound out of tune even when the meter shows that you are dead on...

[JMaserati]

No discussion about compensated nuts yet? Buzz Feiten/Earvana nuts?