E7add4 Chord question

[Elrohir]

I have hesitated asking about this since I didn't want to show my ignorance.

 

I sometimes play an E7add4 chord (all open strings except G# on the 3rd string). I use this in place of a "D" chord at times when I'm playing bar chords in the E shape, get to the E chord, and want to go down a full step to D.

 

It sounds fine to me, but I realize my ears are not as well trained as some of yours. I could play a regular open D chord, or use different bar chords at times, but this one chord seems appropriate sometimes.

 

Am I being lazy, playing incorrectly, or is something like this just a style preference?

 

Thanks

[Chad Thorne]

It sounds fine to me...

The key consideration.

 

E7add4 could also be thought of as E11. I'm having a bit of a time hearing how this could substitute for D, unless what you're saying is that you're playing in E and want to drop to the D; in which case you're actually playing an E/D, or an E chord with a D in the bass. One example that comes to mind right off the bat is Doobie Bros. "Takin' It To The Streets." If you remember, the chorus starts off with the I chord for one measure, stays on the I for the next measure BUT the bass drops down a whole step to the b7. There are probably lots more examples.

 

Well done - carry on!

[Larryz]

No such thing as ignorance around here Eliohir, as there are some guru's that can always help you out...not the sharpest tack on the wall myself but I'll throw in a couple of ideas...if you play the chord described 000600 as a E7add4 you would be playing a 1 5 b3 3 6 4 1 or

E B G G# A E, and you'll see the flatted 3rd fighting the 3rd...I don't see it replacing a D chord.. a better way to play an E7add4 would be 001000 which would give you a 1 5 3 b7 4 1 or E B G# D A E this would keep the G# add the A and throw in a D which would allow you to transition to the D chord or at least have a D in there if you want to use the E7add4 to replace a D chord. My favorite would be 002020

1 5 4 b7 5 1 or E B A D B E which is an E7sus4 or another good choice for me would be 002220 1 5 4 1 5 1 or E B A E B E (Esus4) hope this helps...if you like what you hear just keep on doing it as you maybe coming up with your own sounds which is also fun to do....one last thought on your concept you might give a try is my concept of an Emsus4 which would be 000700 which gives you a 1 5 b3 4 4 1 or

E B G A A E....have fun with it...

[Elrohir]

Hey, it might make a bit more sense if I had listed the right string that I'm playing the G# on - the third string, NOT the fourth string (i.e. 000100).

 

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

Hey, it might make a bit more sense if I had listed the right string that I'm playing the G# on - the third string, NOT the fourth string (i.e. 000100).

 

 

Hahhahhaahh! That DOES clear things up, as I had just been playing what you'd described back-and-forth with a standard-issue "D" chord, and with no "D" present to imply the root, I was really scratching my head over the comparison!

 

If it works, if it sounds good, if it sounds "right", then it does and it is.

 

I don't see- or hear- where this is in any way functioning as a "D" chord of any kind, it still "sounds like E" to my ear, even with D's root and 5th represented on the open 4th and 5th strings, respectively. Probably 'cause there's no G# in D.

 

What's more important and revealing here is, what key you're playing in at the time- so, what key(s)?

[Elrohir]

This may make it more confusing, but what brought this to a head with me was playing "Gallows Pole" by Led Zeppelin in the key of A.

 

I had put my capo on the fifth fret so that I could play the A to Am transition similar to playing E and Em. However, there is a part that switches to G/A/G/A quickly. I was playing this by playing A, then lifting my fingers off the 4th and 5th strings to achieve the "G".

 

Since I was using the Capo, this would be equivalent to playing an open E and then forming the D by using my E7add4. That is, again lifting my fingers off the 4th and 5th strings from my E chord.

 

I'm playing a 12-string and have liked the sound of playing with the capo at 5. I also was having trouble consistantly getting clear sounds switching from A to Am using E-shaped bar chords. I'd also like to see how this sounds along with a guitar playing in open position.

[Larryz]

Hey, it might make a bit more sense if I had listed the right string that I'm playing the G# on - the third string, NOT the fourth string (i.e. 000100).

 

yep that helps, cause if you play the G# on the 4th string 000600 you flat the G# to G on the 3rd sting and get kind of a minor/major infight going...but now that you cleared it up (ie. G# on the 3rd string 001000) I'm still with you....but do you still use this chord for a D chord replacement? or do you use it to slide into the D?

[A String]

Just as an aside here, but this isn't really a chord question, so much as you asking permission to play something incorrectly because you are having a hard time playing it; Right?

 

My advice is, slow the song down until it's slow enough that you can play it smoothly, right through, with no mistakes. Continue to practice at this speed trying to play it a little faster each day. Slowly push the envelope a little at a time until you find yourself, after a few weeks, playing at full speed.

 

We all have pieces that are hard to play. It's mastering those pieces that make us improve as players. If all you ever do is "substitute the hard parts with something easier to play", then you will never get any better.

[Chad Thorne]

We all have pieces that are hard to play. It's mastering those pieces that make us improve as players. If all you ever do is "substitute the hard parts with something easier to play", then you will never get any better.

OTOH, playing this way might lead one to develop an individual, even idiosyncratic style. I'm thinking Richie Havens, Albert Collins as examples. Even B.B. King's style was a result of trying to reproduce a bottleneck sound after he had difficulty mastering the slide. Though I hew pretty close to the "schooled" approach, I'm a big believer in people making music in whatever way sounds good to them. It's a personal choice.

[Elrohir]

A String, I would agree with you that practicing problem areas is important, and I am doing that as well. I guess I am intrigued by looking for different ways to achieve a sound and every once in a while, I stumble upon something that either puzzles me, sounds interesting, or both.

 

I can see in this example that the fourth and fifth strings do go down a full step and I do emphasize them in my strum and the resulting sound seems good to me.

 

I guess I wondered if this was a little guitar trick that others use that I stumbled into, but it seems not to be. I will continue to practice the more staightforward chords that I need to improve upon, and try to figure out if this has a place.

[A String]

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with trying out new voicings and shapes etc. But it shouldn't be done as a crutch (IMO), but as an experiment after you've learned it the right way.

[Caevan O’Shite]

FWIW, playing this on a 12-string instead of a 6 changes what string/note will sound out as the highest "soprano" voice, changing the implied emphasis and any suggested melody.

[Chad Thorne]

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with trying out new voicings and shapes etc. But it shouldn't be done as a crutch (IMO), but as an experiment after you've learned it the right way.

Craig, not arguing, criticizing or trying to start a fight. But I want to share that I have recently come to see that I have been hobbled all my life by the pressure to do things "the right way." At this point I'm feeling like there's a way to play guitar (or to approach a lot of other aspects of life!) that's the most common way, that maybe most people follow and are happy with, and then there are other ways that some people find for themselves. Both approaches are valid, IMO.

 

Specifically as relating to guitar, the "yang" side of so much info available to aspiring players - books, DVDs, Internet - is that we get a lot of cookie-cutter-type players who all sound alike.

 

Again, the above is not meant to start a flame war. Just sharing my POV.

 

Elrohir, only you know whether or not you're being lazy. The voicing you're describing is not "wrong" unless it's not what you want to hear when you play it. As for it being a "little trick," I'm sure some other guitar player has used it at some time or other, it's pretty "guitarry," if you see what I mean. If you could spell out the whole chord progression that you use it in, I think I'd find it easier to understand what chord your voicing is functioning as.

[Elrohir]

Chad:

Two examples. Playing AC/DC Dirty Deeds,(E/G/E/A/D/E), I use the E7add4 in place of the D. I realize that using power chords makes the G,A, and D into G5,A5,and D5. Not being lazy, I use full bar chords instead on a 12-string. An open D chord does not sound quite right to me according to what I hear in my head as it seems too high, whereas the E7add4 continues the drop in chord progression. I must admit that a D5 does sound better than the D in this instance also.

 

Example two as above in my post: Gallows Pole (A/Am/G/D/A, then G/A/G/A for the quick "galloping" part). Again, I'm playing this with a capo on the 5th fret. I play an open D shape on the first part to get my G chord, but play my E7add4 shape to get my G on the second part to alternate with the A chord.

 

Caevan may be right that the 12-string does affect what I hear from the guitar. I also find that I play what I hear in my head which may include the vocals rather than strictly the guitar line. Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

[Chad Thorne]

I also find that I play what I hear in my head...

So it sounds like this is a choice you're making rather than an inability to play a D chord. Carry on.

[A String]

I agree with you, to a point, Chad.

 

Often, I would see students who were "stuck" in their playing. Almost every time it was because they had substituted and easier way to play something, because the right way was to hard. They had "taken the easy way out".

 

When you don't learn things correctly, but instead substitute an easier version of something, it can set you back years. instead of learning and moving forward, you stay stuck in the same place.

 

Sure you may learn that you can play a G chord, by just holding the third fret on the high E and leaving out the 5th and 6th string when you strum, but that doesn't make it right or mean that you've become a better player for finding another way to do it. All it means is that you've put off learning how to play the chord correctly.

 

In this case though, if he is experimenting with other voicings for that chord, even though he can play the original chord, then all the more power to him. In that case, he is building on already learned knowledge and not just putting off learning to make his life easier.

[Chad Thorne]

O.K. Again, not arguing or criticizing, Craig - at least not in the sense of a "flame war." Call it a debate.

 

It seems to me that when you talk about playing the guitar the "right way" you have in mind the most commonly accepted guitar method, i.e., tuned E-A-D-G-B-E, and the chords most commonly associated with that tuning. O.K.; it's the system I myself learned and use. But there are others that have been in use over the centuries, some widely (e.g. "Vastopol"*), some used by one particular person (I'm thinking Joni Mitchell just now).

 

If the goal is to make music rather than merely to achieve technical proficiency in a particular system of playing, one can do that in a variety of ways. That's all I'm saying.

 

*Excerpts from The Language of the Blues: From Alcorub to Zuzu

by Debra DeSalvo

 

Vestapol

 

Vestapol is an open D Major tuning for the guitar. If a guitar tuned in Vestapol is strummed without fretting any notes, it will sound a D Major chord (D A D F# A D). Vestapol tuning was used quite often in the parlor guitar music that was popular from the mid-1800s to the turn of the century. It got its name from the publication in 1854 of an instrumental called "The Siege of Sevastopol," named after the eleven-month siege of a Russan naval base at Sevastopol in the Ukraine during the Crimean War.

 

"The Siege of Sevastopol" being something of a mouthful, the tune became known as "Vastapol" and then "Vestapol."

 

While Victorians were enjoying "Vestapol" in their parlors, blues guitarists were also performing it. Acoustic blues historian Stefan Grossman reports first hearing Elizabeth Cotton play it in the 1960s; he then discovered versions, as well as use of the song's open D Major tuning, in recordings by Mississippi John Hurt, Furry Lewis, and other blues guitarists.

 

Slide master Elmore James used the Vestapol tuning to rock out on "Dust My Broom," his electrified cover of Robert Johnson's "I Believe I'll Dust My Broom." Guitarist Robert Jr. Lockwood noted of Johnson,that "he tuned it [the guitar] in Spanish [open G Major] and in Vestapol."

 

Blues players sometimes also call open E Major tuning (E B E G# B E) Vestapol.

 

Chicago blues guitarist Jody Williams learned how to tune his guitar to Vestapol in E from Bo Diddley. As a child, Williams played harmonica in a group called The Harmonicats that played standards like "Stardust" and "Peg of My Heart" on radio and amateur shows. Williams met Bo Diddley, also a youngster at the time, at an amateur show. "He had one guitar and a washtub bass," Williams recalled. "That's the first time I paid attention to the sound of a guitar. We got together backstage then and we played a little bit and I asked him, if I got a guitar, would he teach me to play a little something on it. He said he would and the next week I spied a guitar in a pawnshop for thirty-two dollars and fifty cents. So he taught me how to tune it to his tuning. It was E, open-E. He called it Vestapol.

 

Williams never did learn to play guitar in standard tuning (E A D G B E). He taught himself to play the blues by imitating players he admired, such as T-Bone Walker and B.B. King, and created his own chord voicings. By the 1950s, Williams was a top session player for Chess Records, as well as a member of the Howlin' Wolf band.

 

"I was one of the first guitar players around Chicago that could play B.B. King's style," Williams said. "If somebody was onstage listening, and they don't see me, they don't know if it's me or him playing. So, when I worked for Howlin' Wolf, one day in 1954 we were in Chess studio playing, and I was playing some B.B. King-style stuff. And this guy comes in the studio and sits down. I didn't know who he was. I notice he's watching me. Watching my hands, watching my fingers, you know. Watching my guitar work.

 

"So I say to myself, 'This dude trying to steal my stuff!' And I'm sitting there just ripping off B.B. King, playing B.B. King style. So I get up, and I move my chair to where he couldn't see my hands. I say to myself, 'He's sitting there trying to steal my stuff. I am not going to teach this dude anything!' I figured he was a guitar player, the way he was watching me. I said to myself, 'If he know his guitar, if he know his instrument well enough, he can learn what I'm playing just by listening.'

 

"It went on like this for a few more songs with him sitting there trying to watch me. Then Leonard Chess said we gonna take a break and play the songs back that we had recorded. So I put my guitar down and go over to the piano and start talking to Otis Spann. Wolf called me over to him and he said, 'Jody, I want you to meet a friend of mine. This is B.B. King.' Oh man! I looked around and I said to myself, 'The studio is too small for me to hide in!' He was trying to see what I was doing 'cause he didn't know how the guitar was tuned."

 

That day B.B. King, Jody Williams, and Otis Spann recorded "Must Have Been the Devil" and the great instrumental, "Five Spot."

 

Songs in Vestapol: Many fine examples of acoustic blues in Vestapol are on Elizabeth Cotton: Freight Train and Other North Carolina Folk Songs and Tunes, Smithsonian Folkways, and Furry Lewis in His Prime 1927-1928, Yazoo.

[A String]

Sure Chad, no "Flame war" going on at all. I certainly don't mind debating this topic a bit. It provides info for other folks.

I do feel that we are on the same page though, for the most part.

 

I think that my main point isn't that you shouldn't colour outside the box, but that you shouldn't use colouring outside of the box as an excuse for an inadequacy in your playing.

 

I taught for many years and one thing I saw, a lot, was kids that were self taught and couldn't figure out why they weren't progressing. It always turned out to be that they had learned things their own way (which is fine, it's how I learned), but they left out anything that they found too difficult. They only knew one scale because working on learning more then one was too hard. Or they played a strange, bastardized version of an F chord, because they couldn't play it the right way. Of course, because they never built up strength for the F chord, they also never built up enough strength for bar chords.

 

Sometimes you have to submit to learning the basics in order to have a good solid foundation and understanding, to build your experimenting upon.

[Chad Thorne]

Well, sure, if somebody is going to learn the - let's call it the "modern scheme" - of guitar playing, he or she owes it to him or herself to learn how to do it corractly.

 

Just to clarify - I'm not thinking so much of "colouring outside the box" (bit of a mixed metaphor, but no matter), but that there's more than one box. But even our buddy Elrohir is sitting smack-dab inside the modern scheme; he just wanted to know what the chord he substitutes for a D sometimes would be known as in the context of that scheme.

[A String]

Well, in Elrohir's case, he was trying out different chords, to replace the D chord. This leads to all sorts of interesting experimenting with chord variations and styles. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

My original point though, was that he shouldn't play another chord instead of the D chord, just because he can't play the D chord.

 

There is a style of teaching where all of the full versions of the open chords, are replaced with three string versions. If all you ever did was learn those three string versions, you would be robbing yourself of all the additional notes that can be added. However, if you learn the full open versions and then try adding notes and moving notes around, learning what is going on within the chord shapes, then you are progressing as a musician and bettering yourself rather then limiting yourself.

[Chad Thorne]

My original point though, was that he shouldn't play another chord instead of the D chord, just because he can't play the D chord.

Agreed.

 

There is a style of teaching where all of the full versions of the open chords, are replaced with three string versions. If all you ever did was learn those three string versions, you would be robbing yourself of all the additional notes that can be added. However, if you learn the full open versions and then try adding notes and moving notes around, learning what is going on within the chord shapes, then you are progressing as a musician and bettering yourself rather then limiting yourself.

I don't mean to be contrary ( I don't seem to be able to help myself). Three-note grips are used by a lot of jazz players who would avoid "cowboy chords," full open chords, like the plague. IME I've found that 3-note chords can be changed a lot faster, the attraction for jazzers, probably. And I've seen lots of guys locked into one grip per any chord they play, another kind of limitation. Pros and cons.

[Eric VB]

Well, it's kind of like the "Smoke on the Water" or "Cat Scratch Fever" thing where you only play two strings (D & G in these cases) to form the "chords". (Let the open A ring in "Cat" if you want.)

 

Elrohir is just using the A & D strings instead.

 

Personally, I'd deaden the other strings if you want a D chord. Using all the strings in the context of a D chord you've got the 2 (E) in the bass, then A & D are fine, then the b5 (G#), 6 (B) and the 2 (E) again. What is that, a D2b56? May was well just strum completely open, eh? (Uh, D246?)

 

But doing this for "Gallow's Pole" with capo 5 means you completely miss the G to A in the bass note. (Maybe you don't miss it if your buddy plays along on bass?) Not sure I'd like it with the drone but it could be a matter of personal taste.

 

For "Gallow's Pole", the A to Am transition is easy without a capo if you hold the standard Am fingering and use your pinky to pick up the C# for the major. (That may be asking a lot for a pinkie on a 12 in standard tuning with all that string tension, but hey, that's exactly what I used to learn how to fully barre an F, so I wouldn't think so.)

 

For the quick G to A transition: I admit it, I cheat. But I'm not going to teach anyone my bad habits. (I'd rather watch Craig play it the right way.)

 

Keep practicing. It'll come in time.

[Larryz]

Hey, it might make a bit more sense if I had listed the right string that I'm playing the G# on - the third string, NOT the fourth string (i.e. 000100).

 

 

sorry, I was not thinking and was using the 0's incorrectly....mine were in reverse order as far as the (000000) chart even though I think I got the notes right along with the intervals....? anyway some good discussion came along after my lame-o post...take care, Larryz

[A String]

My original point though, was that he shouldn't play another chord instead of the D chord, just because he can't play the D chord.

Agreed.

 

There is a style of teaching where all of the full versions of the open chords, are replaced with three string versions. If all you ever did was learn those three string versions, you would be robbing yourself of all the additional notes that can be added. However, if you learn the full open versions and then try adding notes and moving notes around, learning what is going on within the chord shapes, then you are progressing as a musician and bettering yourself rather then limiting yourself.

I don't mean to be contrary ( I don't seem to be able to help myself). Three-note grips are used by a lot of jazz players who would avoid "cowboy chords," full open chords, like the plague. IME I've found that 3-note chords can be changed a lot faster, the attraction for jazzers, probably. And I've seen lots of guys locked into one grip per any chord they play, another kind of limitation. Pros and cons.

 

Not really being contrary at all.

 

I still think we are on the same page though.

[d halfnote]

I always view things in terms of what they are in context.

That's the law in music & anyone who tries to cite any other priciple is not correct, so, not being immediately able to recall the Zep tune, I won't comment on this other than to remark that 2 things are important.

 

As A String says, try to play things as they are rather than introducing shortcuts before you get the actual material.

This may sound great (& that's a very valid approach to adding or changing something) but you should also be able to play what's intended by the composer or at least have an idea why your idea works.

 

The other thing may seem in contradiction to what I just wrote but

I have hesitated asking about this since I didn't want to show my ignorance.

is a common feeling amoungst players at various points, not just for beginners but for those branching into new areas of any sort.

However it always backfires.

You either wind up hanging yerself by pretension or, even worse (though it might not seem so when you're shy or afraid) you simply miss opportunities to learn.

No one with a real sense of humanity or the skill to help will knock you when you are honest & try to learn; that's a game by which you can recognize insecure jerks.

In fact, as you may recognize here, most people will be delighted by the chance to demonstrate what they may do to help.

You may even realize over time that by finding ways to explain things to others one can gain deeper insight into knowledge.

[d halfnote]

Side note from halfnote...

Three-note grips are used by a lot of jazz players who would avoid "cowboy chords," full open chords, like the plague. IME I've found that 3-note chords can be changed a lot faster, the attraction for jazzers, probably. And I've seen lots of guys locked into one grip per any chord they play, another kind of limitation. Pros and cons.

Faster adaptation is good in jazz, as in any music, but I think the guiding principle here is harmonic or simply sonic density.

Thicker chords, whether by a single instrument or by ensemble, leave less room for what others might play, something that's especially important when one gets down into the lower frequency range, as I'm sure you do when playing bass roles.

[Larryz]

I always view things in terms of what they are in context.

That's the law in music & anyone who tries to cite any other priciple is not correct, so, not being immediately able to recall the Zep tune, I won't comment on this other than to remark that 2 things are important.

 

.

 

Not wanting to disagree but I have to cite Guitar Language by David Lawrence Teach Yourself Free-Form Improvisation Technique, gets into playing in and out of any context...uses patterns of dots on the fretboard (which represent all of the numerical intervals if one wants to study their reasoning)...won't go into the whole thing but sometimes Laws are meant to be broken and new compositions are born that way...I'm still working on the material and probably bought the book around 1977...wish I had bought the posters that could have been ordered separately...If anybody has a set, please let me know.....

[musicalhair]

I don't think the question atop this thread is being asked as a student, but more like "hey, I've found this thing I tend to do and I seem to find places to do maybe more than I should." If that is the true spirit behind the question then I say: it is part of what makes you're guitar playing YOUR guitar playing and why someone would want you to play guitar for them and not someone else. Find out what more you like about it. I don't think "laziness" is any part of the real reason you make that choice. You hear something in it, or it frees the fingers for something: those might be ways to explore what's really going on.

 

When I first played the open E major going into the E7 sus 4 (which I think could also be seen as having an A or a D as its root also in some contexts but I can't take the time to go into that) I wanted to continue the descending motion of the B + E -> A + D but I haven't found anything satisfying yet, probably because we have to lose the pedal E in the bass. But, after seeing the examples you cite of where you specifically are doing it, I'm like what you're doing. So long as everyone else in the room you're doing it in is cool with it then don't stop just because it seems to make no sense. It must make sense in some way. I think you should keep looking into what about it works for you and push that logic in as many directions as you can. half way through typing that sentence I said to myself "who the F# am I to say what or how or anything about what this guy oughta do." In any event I like the chord.