Modern music

[Griffinator]

There have been a few times, like when Roland came out with the VG88, or when 7 string guitars became common on the shelves and I thought, wow this really ought to shake things up-and it didn`t happen. I think ultimately those were just variations, not revolution. Same with the computer-it is an evolution to be sure, but very few artists-maybe Brian Eno is one-have put it to use for anything other than making composing or recording more convenient.

 

I put it to use as a way to produce music not possible with a band.

 

There was a very small niche market interested in the music I was producing. I had a bit of a fanbase. By and large, however, the mainstream market had little interest in what I was writing, because it was too complex and didn't have enough raw beat.

[skipclone 1]

There have been a few times, like when Roland came out with the VG88, or when 7 string guitars became common on the shelves and I thought, wow this really ought to shake things up-and it didn`t happen. I think ultimately those were just variations, not revolution. Same with the computer-it is an evolution to be sure, but very few artists-maybe Brian Eno is one-have put it to use for anything other than making composing or recording more convenient.

 

I put it to use as a way to produce music not possible with a band.

 

There was a very small niche market interested in the music I was producing. I had a bit of a fanbase. By and large, however, the mainstream market had little interest in what I was writing, because it was too complex and didn't have enough raw beat.

 

 

But it`s kind of the same story as the other gear I mentioned isn`t it-one would think that there would be a `Star Spangled Banner` moment where everyone said, WOW well the computer has arrived. I think it would have happened by now, if someone can point it out by all means go ahead.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Well, we won't know about modern music for another few decades, will we? Nobody knew what would become of some of that old stuff at the time.

 

We might not have known that it would have legs, but we sure knew that the players were doing something special. Just as we know that the popular players are not doing anything very special today.

[Billster]

Well, we won't know about modern music for another few decades, will we? Nobody knew what would become of some of that old stuff at the time.

 

We might not have known that it would have legs, but we sure knew that the players were doing something special. Just as we know that the popular players are not doing anything very special today.

 

But it's apples and oranges really, because at the same time you had stuff like Hendrix and early Zeppelin, the Pop charts were stuff like the Archies and whatever.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

But it's apples and oranges really, because at the same time you had stuff like Hendrix and early Zeppelin, the Pop charts were stuff like the Archies and whatever.

 

Not quite,

 

1964

1. You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling - Righteous Brothers

2. My Girl - Temptations

3. You Really Got Me - Kinks

4. House Of The Rising Sun - Animals

5. Where Did Our Love Go - Supremes

6. I Get Around - Beach Boys

7. All Day And All Of The Night - Kinks

8. Oh, Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison

9. A Hard Day's Night - Beatles

10. She's Not There - Zombies

 

1965

1. (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - Rolling Stones

2. Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan

3. In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett

4. Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown

5. My Generation - The Who

6. Mr. Tambourine Man - Byrds / Bob Dylan

7. Yesterday - Beatles

8. The Sounds Of Silence - Simon & Garfunkel

9. Ticket To Ride - Beatles

10. The Tracks Of My Tears - Miracles

 

1966

1. Good Vibrations - Beach Boys

2. When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge

3. Reach Out, I'll Be There - Four Tops

4. Gimme Some Lovin' - Spencer Davis Group

5. Ain't Too Proud To Beg - Temptations

6. Eight Miles High - Byrds

7. For What It's Worth - Buffalo Springfield

8. Paint It Black - Rolling Stones

9. You Keep Me Hangin' On - Supremes

10. Wild Thing - Troggs

 

1967

1. Respect - Aretha Franklin

2. Light My Fire - Doors

3. Sunshine Of Your Love - Cream

4. Purple Haze - Jimi Hendrix

5. A Day In The Life - Beatles

6. Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum

7. Somebody To Love - Jefferson Airplane

8. Soul Man - Sam & Dave

9. Strawberry Fields Forever - Beatles

10. Nights In White Satin - Moody Blues

 

1968

1. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye

2. Hey Jude - Beatles

3. All Along The Watchtower - Jimi Hendrix

4. Dock Of The Bay - Otis Redding

5. Mony Mony - Tommy James & the Shondells

6. Jumpin' Jack Flash - Rolling Stones

7. Born To Be Wild - Steppenwolf

8. White Room - Cream

9. Sympathy For The Devil - Rolling Stones

10. Revolution - Beatles

 

1969

1. Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin

2. Proud Mary - Creedence Clearwater Revival

3. I Want You Back - Jackson 5

4. Honky Tonk Women - Rolling Stones

5. Bad Moon Rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival

6. Suite: Judy Blue Eyes - Crosby, Stills & Nash

7. Dazed And Confused - Led Zeppelin

8. Gimme Shelter - Rolling Stones

9. Come Together - Beatles

10. I Can't Get Next To You - Temptations

[Billster]

What chart is that Bill? Billboard Singles?

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Bill,

 

You are correct, I should go by the to from the Billboard Top 100 for each year rather than some possibly questionable list. Here it is:

 

 

1964

1. I Want to Hold Your Hand The Beatles

2. She Loves You The Beatles

3. Hello, Dolly Louis Armstrong

4. Oh, Pretty Woman Roy Orbison

5. I Get Around The Beach Boys

6. Everybody Loves Somebody Dean Martin

7. My Guy Mary Wells

8. We'll Sing In the Sunshine Gale Garnett

9. Last Kiss J. Frank Wilson and the Cavaliers

10. Where Did Our Love Go The Supremes

 

1965

1. Wooly Bully Sam the Sham and The Pharaohs

2. I Can't Help Myself The Four Tops

3. (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction The Rolling Stones

4. You Were On My Mind The We Five

5. You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' The Righteous Brothers

6. Downtown Petula Clark

7. Help The Beatles

8. Can't You Hear My Heartbeat Herman's Hermits

9. Crying In the Chapel Elvis Presley

10. My Girl The Temptations

 

1966

01. The Ballad Of The Green Berets » Sgt. Barry Sadler

02. Cherish » Association

03. (You're My) Soul And Inspiration » Righteous Brothers

04. Reach Out I'll Be There » Four Tops

05. 96 Tears » ? & The Mysterians

06. Last Train To Clarksville » Monkees

07. Monday, Monday » Mama's & The Papa's

08. You Can't Hurry Love » Supremes

09. Poor Side Of Town » Johnny Rivers

10. California Dreamin' » Mama's & The Papa's

1967

1. To Sir With Love Lulu

2. Light My Fire The Doors

3. Windy The Association

4. Ode To Billie Joe Bobbie Gentry

5. The Letter The Box Tops

6. Daydream Believer The Monkees

7. Somethin' Stupid Nancy Sinatra And Frank Sinatra

8. Happy Together The Turtles

9. I Heard It Through The Grapevine Gladys Knight &The Pips

10. Incense And Peppermints Strawberry Alarm Clock

 

1968

1. Hey Jude The Beatles

2. I Heard It Through The Grapevine Marvin Gaye

3. Love Is Blue Paul Mauriat

4. Love Child Diana Ross &The Supremes

5. Honey Bobby Goldsboro

6. Sittin' On The Dock Of The Bay Otis Redding

7. People Got To Be Free The Rascals

8. This Guy's In Love With You Herb Alpert

9. Judy In Disguise (With Glasses) John Fred &His Playboy Band

10. Woman Woman Gary Puckett &The Union Gap

 

1969

1. Sugar, Sugar The Archies

2. Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In 5th Dimension

3. Honky Tonk Women The Rolling Stones

4. Come Together/Something The Beatles

5. Everyday People Sly &The Family Stone

6. Crimson And Clover Tommy James &The Shondells

7. I Can't Get Next To You The Temptations

8. Get Back The Beatles W/Billy Preston

9. Someday We'll Be Together Diana Ross &The Supremes

10. Dizzy Tommy Roe

 

Not quite as rockin' as the other list, but still respectable. If you go deeper, say to the top 25 for each year, you pick up some other rockers, but also increase the number of acts like the Archies. If you pick any local top 40 station in any city, the results could fluctuate wildly. I think that it is a pretty respectable list, with very little bubblegum. It does show what I have been saying all along... that broadcast music was much more diverse. My crowd was as much into the Four Tops and Otis Redding as we were into the Beatles, Stones, and Yardbirds. The Beach Boys, Roy Orbison, all good choices. Also remember that there were entire stations dedicated to music such as "Love Is Blue" and LuLu and Herb Alpert that Granny used to listen to all day while we were in school. This tilts the charts a little bit, since they are POP music charts.

 

[Billster]

The other thing about those lists is that it speaks to the diversity of broadcast radio in that era.

 

A lot (if not most of) the more innovative or "deeper" music of today has zero chance of getting radio exposure, and is therefore a word-of-mouth experience. Then suddenly they might become an "overnight sensation" with their fourth album.

[Zephyr]

As a member of Generation Y, I'll approach this with a grain of salt, as I do normally.

 

But, there is most certainly NOT a lack of innovation or lack of "boundary breaking" that most people attribute to the movements of the 60's. I just finished listening to In the Attic of the Universe by The Antlers, which I think would be too avant-garde for most members on this forum. If you really want to listen to some of the most current innovators: check out some of the CD's on this list and give them an honest listen:

 

 

http://pitchfork.com/features/staff-lists/7573-the-50-best-albums-of-2008/5/

 

I will admit that today's mainstream music is symptomatic of what you're talking about and quite honestly, today's kind of pop isn't representative of my demographic. Mainly because of widespread differentiation, modern technology that makes it easy for people to distribute and a lack of a supporting record industry. I'm no expert, but the reason I think you feel there is a lack of innovation is because you have to look harder for it, when it past decades, the record companies delivered it to you, and now with that invisible filter gone, all the crapola bands are flooding our ears.

 

And as far as worthwhile bands, since the peak of "classic rock", look up U2, Radiohead, Nirvana, REM, Oasis, Neutral Milk Hotel, Fountains of Wayne, Belle & Sebastian, Portishead, and dare I mention Hip-Hop...? On a guitar forum? Is it a list of 25 bands, no, but there again, you just have to look harder...

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

" look up U2, Radiohead, Nirvana, REM, Oasis, Neutral Milk Hotel, Fountains of Wayne, Belle & Sebastian, Portishead, .."

 

Once again, this ignores the original premise of the original post... bands that have emerged between 2004 and 2009, that the western world is listening to, and dancing to. U2 was founded in 1976. Rem, about the same. Fountains of Wayne, 1996; Nirvana, 1985; Oasis, 1991; Radiohead, 1992.

 

That Antlers fits the time frame, but you won't hear them on pop radio, and pretty much nobody knows them(him).

[Zephyr]

To be honest, I don't think I should be confined to the "original post" because it allows you to ignore my points (admittedly I'm making an alternate one), which is that there is worthwhile music that is on par with how you feel about 60's music.

 

To answer your question about danceable tunes, then you'd have to accept the fact that most of it would be rap: Black Eyed Peas, Snoop Dogg, Lil Wayne, etc. which I personally don't like, because music is much more to me than being able to dance to it.

 

[The Bear Jew]

So... in essence, the basic premise of the argument is the popular radio music of the late '60s was better than the popular radio stuff of today?

 

OK. I'll go with that. But, to be honest, this argument has been made ad nauseum. Let's not even get into the whole "it's all a matter of opinion" thing for now... Can I just mention that the argument is a little boring at this point? What, exactly, is this statement proving--the world is going to hell, and we're all doomed to end our lives in a whirl of mediocrity and lousy music? Fair enough. I'll just nip out and frickin' kill myself.

 

If you don't like what you hear, turn it off and make something you DO like.

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

So... in essence, the basic premise of the argument is the popular radio music of the late '60s was better than the popular radio stuff of today?

 

OK. I'll go with that. But, to be honest, this argument has been made ad nauseum. Let's not even get into the whole "it's all a matter of opinion" thing for now... Can I just mention that the argument is a little boring at this point? What, exactly, is this statement proving--the world is going to hell, and we're all doomed to end our lives in a whirl of mediocrity and lousy music? Fair enough. I'll just nip out and frickin' kill myself.

 

If you don't like what you hear, turn it off and make something you DO like.

 

Well, I don't think that it is an argument, it is a discussion. To understand the original premise (which I do try to keep on point...) read my original post.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

"To be honest, I don't think I should be confined to the "original post"...."

 

If not, then the point to your responding in this thread is lost on me. I'd be happy to talk about good music from any era, start your own thread using your premise, and we'll all weigh in with our opinions.

 

 

[Eric Iverson]

I agree - the only positive thing to do, aside from making the best possible music ourselves, is to promote the gems that we DO find - let our friends and colleagues know about the great players/singers/songwriters/composers we discover.

 

Word of mouth still counts for something, and nowadays we can communicate our new discoveries to thousands of people at the click of a mouse! We can also do our best to recommend people for gigs - of course, since I don't do it for a living, it's easy for ME to say!

[The Bear Jew]

So... in essence, the basic premise of the argument is the popular radio music of the late '60s was better than the popular radio stuff of today?

 

OK. I'll go with that. But, to be honest, this argument has been made ad nauseum. Let's not even get into the whole "it's all a matter of opinion" thing for now... Can I just mention that the argument is a little boring at this point? What, exactly, is this statement proving--the world is going to hell, and we're all doomed to end our lives in a whirl of mediocrity and lousy music? Fair enough. I'll just nip out and frickin' kill myself.

 

If you don't like what you hear, turn it off and make something you DO like.

 

Well, I don't think that it is an argument, it is a discussion. To understand the original premise (which I do try to keep on point...) read my original post.

 

OK, I went back and re-read the first post. I retract the word "argument" from my response. You must admit, however, that the thread got a little convoluted along the way...

 

So then, the discussion should revolve around why, after all these years, are the guys who basically invented rock guitar playing still held in such high regard... And why hasn't anyone in the current crop of players taken guitar playing to a new/higher level?

 

Well, I think it's probably because, in general, the world of guitar playing is kind of backwards-ass--technology comes along to allow us to do new/interesting things with guitars/sounds, and we, as guitarists, just kind of pooh-pooh these things, saying they're not warm, don't sound tubey or whatever. So we go back and plug in our Marshalls and Les Pauls... and then you wonder why nobody has taken guitar playing to a new place? Well... DUH. If we keep using the same gear and the same general approach to music, we'll continue to sound basically the same. I won't even lie--I fall into this category. I love me some LP into a Marshall. But I'm old-school like that. Never claimed not to be.

 

Of course, the artists who DO use guitar in new ways... well.. we don't think much of them as guitarists, do we? I mean, look at the guys from Korn or even Tom Morello (from RATM or Audioslave)--they took "shredder" guitars (those 7-stringers were originally Steve Vai numbers, right?) and whammy bars and used them for something totally different... and created guitar sounds that really didn't sound like guitars at all. In fact, one might even say they took guitar to a new place. But those guys are hated among most guitar circles as talentless and effect-ridden losers. Meanwhile... these guys (and others of their ilk) are doing something new and different with guitars and inspiring a whole generation of players to play.

[Zephyr]

"To be honest, I don't think I should be confined to the "original post"...."

 

If not, then the point to your responding in this thread is lost on me. I'd be happy to talk about good music from any era, start your own thread using your premise, and we'll all weigh in with our opinions.

 

 

We both know there are underlying currents here, and I was only addressing them. But if you want to talk about your specific questions about household bands that you could dance to from 2004-2009, then I can tell you right now that I don't listen to those bands, but all you'd have to do is look at the top 40. However, I'll agree with you on this that the '64-69 tunes had much more staying power (again I think the record industry had a hand in maintaining them).

 

On the subject of today's players who aren't as remembered, again I insist that the almost non-existent record industry plays a part in this. And personally, I think too many players have submitted that there is nothing left to do on the guitar. I respectfully disagree.

 

And those who are trashing the impact of Woodstock can be chalked up to ignorant teenage angst. Nothing more

 

 

 

[picker]

So... in essence, the basic premise of the argument is the popular radio music of the late '60s was better than the popular radio stuff of today?

 

Some of it, yes, but definitely not all of it. To me what's really missing now are artists making watershed recordings that the next generation will build on. But maybe those sounds are just on indie recordings, too obscure and regional to made a national splash. Perhaps we won't hear about them until the next batch of young blasters comes down the pike, saying stuff like "My biggest influence was Candypants Bob with the Sugar Daddies. Man, that's the real stuff, right there!"

[p90jr]

Bill, if the young'uns are ragging on your generation it's out of jealousy.

 

I got into a discussion like that on another board a few days ago (Woodstock-triggered) and the general thing from the 19-25 y.o. musicians and fans was "we're tired of hearing about it... our generation can do stuff that's important, too." Why they think that means they have to make your generation's stuff seem less important I don't quite get... especially since they're prone to revivalism - dance theme nights, tribute bands, outright revivalism of genres - but I think it's the usual "parents/grandparents weren't the end-all be-all" thing... made more frustrating to them because nobody is saying that generation were squares, just that they were too wild.

 

I did see a lot of media and editorial stuff from stuffy conservative types of all ages saying the 60s and 70s were, in truth, awful save for Nixon... and I laughed every time.

[p90jr]

Oh, but we can all agree that radio and the music industry in general went deep into the shitter sometime around the early 90s, when instead of being run by music fanatics who happened to be business-minded people they became run by business-people who happened to be money fanatics.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

"I insist that the almost non-existent record industry plays a part in this."

 

Yes, and that falls under the guise of the 90s computer kid 'if I can steal it and not get caught, why should I pay for it' mentality. If you ran a business that was selling millions and millions of pieces of product, and your infrastructure and distribution was set up to handle this type of product production; and within a couple of years you found that your biggest selling lines were lucky to sell 100,000 units you would soon find yourself out of business, too; or at least, unable to sustain your business in the fashion that kept it successful and able to introduce and promote new product.

 

That old tired saw about the record companies and their 'greed' as being an excuse has raised its head again. I can only say that anyone who thinks this 1. doesn't understand how the entertainment industry works and 2 doesn't understand how businesses work.

[webe123]

Bill, if you think that the record companies are spotless companies that only want the musicians and singers best intrest at heart, then it is YOU who is being fooled.

 

I don't agree with music piracy, but I also don't agree with people who spout off that the music industry is somehow spotless when it comes to dealing with artists. They are some of the biggest bunch of hypocrites around!

 

Heard of the latest news? Sony's offices in Mexico getting raided beacuse of what? MUSIC PIRACY!

 

That's right.

 

http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/home-theatre-audio/sony-bmg-in-office-piracy-raid-633196

 

So lets not act like the music industry is "spotless" shall we?

 

There are MANY artist's that have been ripped off by the industry and if you don't agree with that, then you are being deceived.

[Zephyr]

No one said the industry was "spotless" and of course they rip off bands, that's part of the reason why it feel apart. However, it's a necessary evil that provides immense financial support in so many different ways. Ever wonder why people are complaining about expensive concert ticket prices? Money has to be made somehow if people won't buy CD's.

 

[Eric Iverson]

There's plenty of blame to go around, of course!

 

But my question is, where do we go from here? I don't want to be a Polyanna about it, but there are also positives in the new scenario, aren't there? Is the new technology ALL bad? Isn't the ability to get your product out there worldwide with the click of a mouse a GOOD thing? And hear tons of musicians on YouTube that you would never have heard otherwise?

 

I just don't see where nostalgia gets us anywhere - we have to learn to adapt to the new reality, and find a way to make good (if not great) music and make a living, don't we?

 

Maybe there will be fewer superstars in the future... I HOPE so.. but more opportunities for journeymen. Time will tell!

 

PS I'm not trying to ruin a good rant..LOL! I've been known to be an old curmudgeon at times....

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

"...if you think that the record companies are spotless companies that only want the musicians and singers best intrest at heart,..."

 

I don't think that anyone can point to a time when I've ever said anything like that.

 

But the 'greed' excuse was used, not by signed bands who might have a reason to feel that way, but by college kids as an excuse for poor behavior. "I can steal from the record companies because they are greedy." Yeah. Explain that moral stand to your mom.

 

I'm not going to go into the long complex explanation of how the entertainment industry works and how crucial the record industry's role was in the process. I just want to point out that like stupid kids everywhere, we've pissed in the well, and now we're getting thirsty. What to do, what to do????

 

When the destruction was underway I constantly posted all over the web suggesting that before we burned down our house we might want to put up a tent.

[picker]

"I can steal from the record companies because they are greedy." Yeah. Explain that moral stand to your mom.

 

My mom wouldn't go for it...

[Griffinator]

When the destruction was underway I constantly posted all over the web suggesting that before we burned down our house we might want to put up a tent.

 

And, surprisingly, there are indie bands everywhere who have built themselves tents made from the combination of aggressive touring and self-distribution of not only CD's but also MP3's and schwag.

 

A hard working band with decent booking representation can make a fine living for themselves in the current model.

 

Indie labels are also thriving because of the decentralized distribution model as well.

 

The big labels, not so much, and the easy scapegoat is "stolen music" - when the reality is that kids are buying CD's from bands that they can actually afford to go see live.

[Dr. Ellwood]

"A hard working band with decent booking representation can make a fine living for themselves in the current model."

 

Subjective...no?... what would a "Fine" living translate to be??

[Griffinator]

A significantly better living then they'd make working menial labor jobs, which would be the alternative for most of these kids.

[A String]

Hey, I made a living, on the road full time, for seven years. As I've said before, it beat the heck out of Mcdonald's.