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What fingering should I use for diminished minor arpeggios?


Alkeys

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Hey guys- I had a question for you players out there.

 

I've still got tons to learn and am a budding piano player and

I know how to do major key Arpeggios- I always use fingers 1,3,5 and go under with my thumb to start up on the 1 again.

 

What fingering do you guys use when you do a minor diminished arpeggio? I find 1,3,5 hard to use because of the black keys. Any advice?

 

Thank you for all the help

 

 

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what is a 'minor diminished'? I presume you mean a diminished triad? 1,2,3 is just fine for that. Fits the fingers perfectly. Never 5.

 

For a diminished 7th chord, you can use 1,2,3,4, or 1,2,3,5

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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I am suprised nobody caught this. It's 1 2 3 for major and minor triad arpeggios only when it's a white note and it's 1 2 4 when it's a black note (see Hanon page 65). Thumb always on white except in the case of Gb major triad and Eb minor triad where you have no choice but to use the thumb on a black key.

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." 

Harry teaches jazz piano online using Facebook Messenger, FaceTime, or Google Meet.

 

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I am suprised nobody caught this. It's 1 2 3 for major and minor triad arpeggios only when it's a white note and it's 1 2 4 when it's a black note (see Hanon page 65). Thumb always on white except in the case of Gb major triad and Eb minor triad where you have no choice but to use the thumb on a black key.

 

I don't ever do that for some reason. Maybe because I always shape my hand for a 7th chord so I don't ever think of a triad arpeggiation.

 

 

Also for 7th chords, I use the 4th finger when the chord ends on a black key and use 5th finger when it ends on a white key.

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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If you are into Upper Structures (triads) in jazz piano (D/C7, A/C7, Ab/C7, Gb/C7), like I am, then you probably sometimes play triad arps. The 123 fingering is best when it's a white note and 124 when it's a black note. This fingering is the consensus of centuries of classical pianists. Of course you can still do them all as 123...

 

By the way, 1 2 3 4 fingering for 7th chord arpeggios are slower and less efficient than 1 2 3 5 fingering. Of course you can still do them as 1 2 3 4 but the 3rd finger gets tripped up at high speeds.

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." 

Harry teaches jazz piano online using Facebook Messenger, FaceTime, or Google Meet.

 

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I can see why 124 is easier on a thumb cross on black notes when arpeggiating. Now that you mention triad shapes, I do that a lot too and I did notice that on a triad shape arpeggiating down I do use 4 on the black key. I don't know if I'd automatically use that on a smaller diminished triad though since the distance is much smaller.

 

How do you arpeggiate a Cmaj7 or Cmin7 for example? Don't you use 1,2,3,4 for that? I seem to always do.

 

For a dimnished 7 shape where both 1 and 5 end on white notes, I feel balanced with 1,2,3,5. But when the diminished chord is like a B diminished, I feel my hand is over twisted with 5 on the Ab.

 

 

 

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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Try this, play Cmaj7 in eighth notes ascending as an arp at tempo 300, with 1235, then try your 1234... you notice the difference? It's effortless with 1235 and I can't do it with 1234 because the stretching is so difficult

 

It is not comfortable stretching the interval of a major 3rd between the 3 and 4th fingers when you simply don't have to. Use 5

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." 

Harry teaches jazz piano online using Facebook Messenger, FaceTime, or Google Meet.

 

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I always use fingers 1,3,5 and go under with my thumb to start up on the 1 again.

 

Keep your thumb 'glued' to your index finger and simply slide your hand laterally _keeping your fingers parallel_ to the keys ... and then play the key with your thumb by simply lowering your thumb.

 

When you anticipate the 'next' note by placing your thumb under your palm, you will rock your wrist and move your entire hand back and forth which is wasted motion. A good teacher can demonstrate how to do this.

 

Keep your fingers always parallel to the keys. It takes many hours of practice to make this effortless but it pays off.

 

Perhaps some day I'll make a video of what I'm saying but until then, get a teacher.

 

To have an idea of what I mean, take your hand, keeping your thumb glued to your index finger (and keeping your hand compact and not splayed out), and move your hand in front of you (over your desk, or in the air or over your keyboard) _keeping your fingers parallel to the keys; you simply lower your thumb to play the note in quetion - you do not slide it under your palm to anticipate the next note in question.

 

Take a look at the following thread and read it slowly ...

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1170591/page/0/fpart/1

 

By using correct technique, the question of what finger to use never should come up; it's almost on the level of, I'm leaving my house should I make the first step with my right foot or left foot. I think after you spend a lot of time playing you rarely think of fingering. I know I don't think of fingering and I remember the best teacher I had stating the same.

 

(By the way, feel free to disagree with me. :) )

 

This added later ... I just reacted to the fingering issue and not to the 'dim minor arpeggios'. Perhaps someone can translate that one for me.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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I am suprised nobody caught this. It's 1 2 3 for major and minor triad arpeggios only when it's a white note and it's 1 2 4 when it's a black note (see Hanon page 65). Thumb always on white except in the case of Gb major triad and Eb minor triad where you have no choice but to use the thumb on a black key.

 

Actually the rule, which works for inversions (which the Bb essentially is as you put the thumb on the D - I assume that is what you are referring to in Hanon) is that if the interval is a fourth, you use 2 and 4 across the interval and if its a third you use 2 and 3.

 

But that's just because it tends to fit the hand better. The basic rule is to try to fit the relaxed hand to anything you play.

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All good, Dave. But 123 is better, ask the Horrwitz guys .

 

I know. I was only responding to the 'thumb under' thing.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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If you were to play 3rd scales I believe you would start with the 1,3,5 scenario but play 1,3/2,4/3,5/1,3/2,4/3,5 and so on going up and reverse going down

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Try this, play Cmaj7 in eighth notes ascending as an arp at tempo 300, with 1235, then try your 1234... you notice the difference? It's effortless with 1235 and I can't do it with 1234 because the stretching is so difficult

 

It is not comfortable stretching the interval of a major 3rd between the 3 and 4th fingers when you simply don't have to. Use 5

 

You know, you don't have to stretch out your hand to have your fingers (1,2,3,4) ready in place to play a C maj7 arpeggio. You can still keep your hand compact and essentially slide your hand over the keys (keeping your fingers always parallel to the keys) and simply drop the finger over the key.

 

I'm practicing arpeggios at the moment and this thread popped into my mind.

 

 

 

 

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Exactly Dave. I play 1,2,3,4 arpeggios on a C major scale with a compact hand. And it is less tense for me if I arpeggiate up and then go down multi-octaves with 1,2,3,4. It's not even that I "slide" my hand over, I just relax the fingers that have already played and my wrist rotates in the direction of the arpeggio (up or down).

 

I think 1,2,3,4,5 is good for playing seventh chords, but the pinky is not strong enough for quick arpeggiation for me, especially going down.

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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