OT: Surround sound listening.

[SK]

Surround sound setups can be more than tedious when striving for 'perfection'. When you're obsessed with accuracy, it could drive you nuts.

 

But hey, listening distractions come in many forms... like some are 'distracted' by the minutia of theory and complexity of deeper music to actually enjoy listening, or they can't focus on the music right now because they want a sandwich, whatever, etc., etc.

 

It's nice when a sound system enhances the experience. It comes down to the music anyway - eventually the 'wow factor' wears off and you're left with the quality of the music itself.

 

I rarely use it, but I have a well calibrated surround system. Not all DVD recordings or systems being equal of course, one of the best I've heard is 'Keith Jarrett Trio: Live At Open Theater East.'

 

The piano is central in the recording, high hat and ride cymbal on separate speakers, bass drum and bass augmented in the sub woofer. Was it an accurate reproduction of live? Of course not, it's hyper-real: like being in the center of the stage, equidistant from the instruments - a balanced, intimate vantage point even most players can't experience. Blew me away, but still, if the playing hadn't interested me, it wouldn't matter.

[NoahZark]

Don't think I don't know it. Remember, I used to run ADAM Audio USA...

 

It's a drag that some people are restricted by space/physical constraints in pro situations...it's even worse in consumer situations because of the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) regarding how the speaker placement LOOKS.

 

dB

 

Hey, call me crazy, but if someone's wife doesn't think a handful of ADAM speakers set up in a surround arrangement doesn't LOOK every bit as beautiful as a Renoir or Picasso hanging from the living room wall, they don't know nothin' 'bout home furnishings!

 

Noah

(Proud A7 Owner)

[NoahZark]

Was it an accurate reproduction of live? Of course not, it's hyper-real: like being in the center of the stage, equidistant from the instruments - a balanced, intimate vantage point even most players can't experience.

 

This is why I never really understood surround audio. To me, listening to audio was always supposed to have sense of sitting in the audience of a music venue and experiencing a live musical production. As SK says, surround makes you feel like you're sitting in the center of the stage, which I personally find a bit discombobulating. I like the effect that surround provides for film soundtracks, but I still prefer my music in good ol' 2.0.

 

Noah

[midinut]

Let's keep one other factor under consideration here. WE, as a collective group, are "artists" and most artists listen to music with different ears than your normal Joe/Jane off the street. Case in point. How many of us are overly critical of our keyboard amp setups on stage? Our PA's? Our monitoring systems? We talk about it here ALL THE TIME! Truth be known is that 85-90% of our crowds/customers could give a rats ass what we are playing through and that same percentage couldn't hear a bad note if it bit them in the ass! I feel the same rules apply to surround. DanS was sharing his experience at listening to music that he's known intimately for years and hearing it in a new way. I can relate and understand that as well. I have a cheap POS Sony "Home Theater In a Box" that I spent less than $300 on years ago. I use it mostly for movies but do own a few surround mixes. I had the same experience DanS did and IIRC the first time I listened I thought to myself - "This is the future of mixing - I want ALL my future projects from this point forward to be done this way". Probably a bit unrealistic considering all the reasons that are mentioned so eloquently above. I was there when "Quadraphonic" came out and it didn't catch on. Neither did Beta, and a few other formats that have fallen by the wayside. I remember adults when I was young that I would have considered "Audiophiles" that had every audio gadget known to mankind and their listening rooms rivalled some studios at the time. But audiophiles (and most musicians) have that ear - that gift - that can extract that difference out of the mix that most humans just don't get.

 

Just my opinion and point of view. You can tell me to STFU anytime now! You all have a great day - and enjoy some music!

[Markyboard]

My current home rocks - the only problem for me when we bought it was that the room where the system is has a big built fixture that has the TV in the corner at a 45 degree angle...

 

You don't even wanna know what I had to go through to get the system to the point where it wasn't driving me nuts. I still wanna rip that built-in out someday....

 

I struggle with similar. Fireplace right in the middle of the wall where TV/Center speaker wants to be. Put the TV in the corner next to of one and my old Tannoy LGMs. Other speaker sits in the opposite corner but it looks like crap and I've just never been happy with the setup. We even talked about gutting the room and moving the fireplace until we turned our basement into the enetertainment room. That's where I do almost all of my listening now and I rarely hang in the family room any more.

 

 

....There is no sweet spot in a car. ...

 

They got it all wrong. Speakers should be placed on each EXTERNAL side (front/back/left/right) of a car. If you want surrond sound on your daily commute roll down the windows.

[DanS]

Let's keep one other factor under consideration here. WE, as a collective group, are "artists" and most artists listen to music with different ears than your normal Joe/Jane off the street. Case in point. How many of us are overly critical of our keyboard amp setups on stage? Our PA's? Our monitoring systems? We talk about it here ALL THE TIME! Truth be known is that 85-90% of our crowds/customers could give a rats ass what we are playing through and that same percentage couldn't hear a bad note if it bit them in the ass! I feel the same rules apply to surround. DanS was sharing his experience at listening to music that he's known intimately for years and hearing it in a new way. I can relate and understand that as well. I have a cheap POS Sony "Home Theater In a Box" that I spent less than $300 on years ago. I use it mostly for movies but do own a few surround mixes. I had the same experience DanS did and IIRC the first time I listened I thought to myself - "This is the future of mixing - I want ALL my future projects from this point forward to be done this way". Probably a bit unrealistic considering all the reasons that are mentioned so eloquently above. I was there when "Quadraphonic" came out and it didn't catch on. Neither did Beta, and a few other formats that have fallen by the wayside. I remember adults when I was young that I would have considered "Audiophiles" that had every audio gadget known to mankind and their listening rooms rivalled some studios at the time. But audiophiles (and most musicians) have that ear - that gift - that can extract that difference out of the mix that most humans just don't get.

 

Just my opinion and point of view. You can tell me to STFU anytime now! You all have a great day - and enjoy some music!

 

+100

Thanks Midinut!

[midinut]

Sorry ... after I read it back today it did sound a bit harsh!

 

But I suppose we could have the same discussion about intelligence and it would have the same type of results!

Cheers everyone and take my last post in the vein it was intended!

[Griffinator]

Was it an accurate reproduction of live? Of course not, it's hyper-real: like being in the center of the stage, equidistant from the instruments - a balanced, intimate vantage point even most players can't experience.

 

This is why I never really understood surround audio. To me, listening to audio was always supposed to have sense of sitting in the audience of a music venue and experiencing a live musical production. As SK says, surround makes you feel like you're sitting in the center of the stage, which I personally find a bit discombobulating. I like the effect that surround provides for film soundtracks, but I still prefer my music in good ol' 2.0.

 

Noah

 

That's the problem.

 

They're mixing for effect, not for the potential of giving three-dimensional space to the instruments.

 

A properly mixed surround track would look a lot like a properly mixed quad track (and I've experienced many of those) where it feels more like you're sitting in the very front row, and you have an immediate sense of exactly where the musicians are on the stage.

[Dave Bryce]

They're mixing for effect, not for the potential of giving three-dimensional space to the instruments.

Who does? You think all the surround engineers mix this way? You must not have listened to a whole lot of these...

 

As I said earlier, the way these things are mixed varies...I'd even say wildly. Some mixers have different instruments coming out of different speakers, some mixers make different stereo combinations out of the speakers...and yes, quite a few of them use the front three as the sound stage and the back two for ambience. Kind Of Blue, which was recorded on a three track, has the three tracks separated LCR with nothing in the back two. Very interesting to listen to it like that....

 

Once again, these are not meant to be replacements for the originals, any more than stereo remixes are meant to be replacements of the mono originals. They're just different treatments. Personally, I find more than a few of them to be unbelievably creative: each hit of the backwards clave on Amazing Journey from Tommy starting in the front right and ending in the back right speaker is so cool....Gilmour's solo on Time with the guitar mono in the center channel but the effects/delay in stereo in the back speakers...the Eagles doing Seven Bridges Road with each Eagle (vocals and instruments) in their own speaker...and don't get me started on the gospel vocals on Church from Joshua Judges Ruth...

 

I contend that I can convert pretty much any non-believer sitting in a room with a decent surround system in fifteen minutes max.

 

dB

 

 

[Griffinator]

"They" being whoever it was that mixed these packages that make you feel like you're sitting in the middle of the stage, instead of in the audience...

[Dave Bryce]

"They" being whoever it was that mixed these packages that make you feel like you're sitting in the middle of the stage, instead of in the audience...

Like I said...it varies. Even those. The recent Genesis remixes are a perfect example - they sound three dimensional without being "gaudily" 5.1. The remix of Blow By Blow also does the surround thing very tastefully. Toys In The Attic - another excellent remix.

 

Simply, there's not really any standard, so each engineer just basically does what he feels like (or is told to). Some of them are more subtle (tasteful, IMO) about it than others.

 

Besides, if the mix is well balanced, what's wrong with it sounding like you're sitting in the middle of the stage (other than the fact that you're not used to it)? You've gotta hear that choir on JJR - it's like they're all around you...almost like you're in a small church with everybody singing....or the Eagles disc, which sounds like you're in a room with them sitting all around you...like being in a small studio room listening to some (very talented) friends playing together. How could that possibly be a bad thing?

 

dB

 

 

[FunkKeysStuff]

and don't get me started on the gospel vocals on Church from Joshua Judges Ruth...

 

Now see, I've never even realistically considered getting a surround system, but when you go saying things like that, it really starts breaking down my resistance.

 

Still, for now I'm sticking to the original plan I came up with when these first hit the market: when they start releasing the old Stevie Wonder albums in surround, with the different keyboard parts in different spaces, that's the day I'll whip out the credit card.

[DanS]

 

A properly mixed surround track would look a lot like a properly mixed quad track (and I've experienced many of those) where it feels more like you're sitting in the very front row, and you have an immediate sense of exactly where the musicians are on the stage.

 

Who says the perfect place to sit in a surround setup is supposed to emulate a concert hall in the first place?

Personally I don't give a rat's ass.

I've been to far more concerts where the sound was shite than pristine anyway.

[Griffinator]

I didn't say emulating a concert hall, just that the three-dimensional illusion should give you a sense of instrument positioning in front of you.

[DanS]

You've gotta hear that choir on JJR - it's like they're all around you...almost like you're in a small church with everybody singing...

 

What blows me away is the pedal steel on the ballads. It's like a wave of sound that washes across the room and fades out the back.

Incredible.