Set-list patch changes

[SpaceNorman]

I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...

 

 

"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

 

 

The laughter is understandable. Of course back when you and I were getting started we laughed alot too. I remember laughing pretty hard when somebody asked if I could cover a piano part, an organ part, strings and some horn lines - all in the same song.

 

Life has changed a bit though hasn't it? We've now got "high tech singles" where one guy surrounded with digital toys does it all live in real time.

 

Selecting a programmed patch number isn't a problem. Selecting several of them - simulaneously - without missing a beat in the middle of a song however can add some challenge.

 

I don't have a problem selecting a programmed patch number - I'm simply looking for a way to deal selecting patches on multiple devices more quickly and easily.

[Al Coda]

Al Coda told me about a better unit out there, but it's only available in Germany.

http://www.miditemp.com/english/products.html

 

- Karl

 

Hi Karl !

 

The link is correct, but the product I use is discontinued,- so it´s not on the website anymore.

 

The machine I toured with a lot is this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/MIDITEMP-PMM-88-FERNBEDIENUNG-RAM-Speicher-fuer-128-Prog_W0QQitemZ400057622934QQcmdZViewItemQQptZStudioequipment?hash=item5d254ae196&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1229|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

 

a 8x8 midi matrix/ midi processor w/ 128 preset memory.

 

What I´m using is the successor,- PMM88E,- which has a better remote controller (display), a few add. features and more memory (4x128 preset locations in 4 banks à 128.

 

which is also included in this product ...

MP88 W (Midi Player, Midi Matrix, Digital Audio Player, Standard MIDI File PLAYER/RRECORDER)

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/Midiplayer-Miditemp-MP88_W0QQitemZ320392931273QQcmdZViewItemQQptZStudioequipment?hash=item4a98e827c9&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1229|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

 

Who doesn´t need any midi-player functions should look for the PMM88E, but they are rare and there are many bidders always.

 

The machine for the very large rigs was the MT-16x,- 16x16 matrix/ processor,- a 2HU unit.

 

The PMM88E, MP88 and MT-16x could be stacked by a optical device (optional card) called FORNET.

SysEx format here:

http://www.miditemp.com/english/dump.txt

 

Software update versions are here:

http://www.markusmuziek.nl/miditemp/update.htm

 

more here:

http://www.miditemp.nl/stats/PMM_88e.php

http://www.miditemp.nl/stats/MT_16x.php

http://www.miditemp.nl/stats/MP_88W.php

 

support & questions here:

http://www.miditemp.com/english/support.html

 

I also own a MOTU Midi Timepiece II, but this is a very, very rudimentary machine compared to a Miditemp PMM88, PMM88E, MT16-X and MP88.

With these machines, there´s no USB and/or computer needed to set ´em up,- it´s all done by the remote controller and it´s extremely easy for it´s complexity,- nearly self-explaining.

Once one found out the logic of the remote controllers LED illuminated push buttons, rotary encoder and display messages,- it´s a no-brainer in usage if you´ve some knowledge of MIDI and if you know what you want to do. No cryptic HEX or such, it´s all very clear.

 

Ask support for an english manual...

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[DanS]

My S80 usually handles the piano & rhodes sounds. I use Performance mode in my Fantom X7 (16 layers/splits), and use Live Mode to organize the setlists, which are nailed down a day or 2 before the gig.

[Karl Schmeer]

I did a little reading on the MOTU Timepiece unit. Unless I'm not understanding what I'm reading - I don't think it's going to do what I want. I don't want to control complex MIDI routings - I'm looking for a way to send Program Change control commands to multiple MIDI connected devices from a single device - with a single button push - and want an easy to use PC/MAC based user interface to be able to control THAT single device.

Nice User Interface Design, I'l take one, How much?

 

Well, you have to dig deep in the manual, but the midi timepiece AV will do patch changes with something they call a midi cannon which will send midi events ( in this case patch changes ) to each midi out. It does more when hooked up to a MAC B.T.W. There are things it won't do when programmed with a PC. And the documentation for PC programming is way too sparse. I can't say I recommend it, but I could not find anything else that worked without dragging a computer along. That is, until I heard about Al's suggestion of the PME88. Eventually I want to move up to one of these.

 

If you have a computer along on the gig, can't you use a software midi sequencer to do this?

 

-Karl

 

 

[Karl Schmeer]

Hey There Al

 

[Karl Schmeer]

One more reason not to go midi timepiece unless you have no other choice.

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2042282/MOTU_DISREGARD_FOR_CUSTOMERS#Post2042282

[J. Dan]

Dan, how much time did it take you to program all this? Sending program changes to Triton and the guitar proc. - very cool!

 

Did you sequence all of it inside the Fusion or use a PC and then upload to Fusion?

 

For the most part, all in the fusion. I had a lot of sequences from past bands already - some done in the triton, some on computer - that I imported, but extensive work was still required in terms of sound programming, patch changes, etc. I already had the fusion in my last band but had not started using it yet, so when I switched bands, I decided that was the time to switch my setup. I had about 2 weeks until we started practicing together and about another 2 weeks before I was playing out. Of course I started out with about 50 songs and have since gotten up to around 80 total. Anything new is solely sequenced in the fusion, with additional sounds from the Triton.

 

Not entirely ideal, but I can go from song to song with no delay, no matter how complex. And I don't need a pedal board for my guitar.

 

In my old band, I also controlled the drummer's patches and vocal effects patches. This band our drummer switches them himself, which works better because sometimes he's switching sets at different times than i'm switching for the next song or whatever. And we don't have our own vocal FX in this band - we rely on FOH.

[Al Coda]

If you have a computer along on the gig, can't you use a software midi sequencer to do thisß

 

-Karl

 

If there´s a computer in a live rig anyway, software like Brainspawn Forte and Cantabile Performer 2.x would do it.

But there´s always the USB connection and drivers for a USB MIDI interface,- you know.

 

My experience w/ external hardware is,- use additional hardware (in this/my case a Miditemp),- it´s less Midi jitter and latency.

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

Hey There Al

 

 

Hi Karl !

 

What are the plans ? Weather changed here,- it´s all fine actually.

Let me know ...

 

:-)

 

A.C.

[wineandkeyz]

While I get great use of MASTER mode on the Motif and programming sequential program changes, I am curious how others manage multiple patch changes in their set lists.

 

How many do you have per show and per song? Do you think it gets a bit out of control at times, or is it just par for the course?

 

It's par for the course. It gets even trickier when you have one "main" band but fill in with several others. I use the Master mode on my S90ES to control the changes on all my keyboards (a Roland VR-760 and Fantom X7). For one of the fill-in bands, I set up a Master (and sometimes 2 or 3) for each song and have them stored in alphabetical order in banks D and E. I can be playing one song, glance at the set list and punch the bank for the next song, which displays the list of programs in that bank. When the first song is finished, I just push the program button for the next song.

[wineandkeyz]

I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...

 

 

"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

 

 

Another old timer here. There was also the enjoyment of constantly tuning the danged things. When I gigged with a Minimoog, I connected its headphone jack to a strobe tuner. Between/during songs, I would switch off the main outputs and check the tuning on the 3 oscillators. And inevitably, just before a signature solo, either the heating or cooling system in the building would kick on and the oscillators would drift in different directions. Fun stuff!

[jarrell]

I use method c) the live switching approach on my Kurzweil PC3 (used to use it on my Roland JV-90). I need the flexibility of this method; I can't imagine using patch chains unless it was a completely planned out show. The PC3 allows you to have up to 16 programs in a setup, and I can freely layer, split, and mute/unmute them as I need, plus I have 9 volume sliders - it is kind of like mixing on the fly. It handles my external MIDI modules as well. I also can switch to another setup in the middle of a song, so there is tons of flexibility.

[NewImprov]

Another old timer here. There was also the enjoyment of constantly tuning the danged things. When I gigged with a Minimoog, I connected its headphone jack to a strobe tuner. Between/during songs, I would switch off the main outputs and check the tuning on the 3 oscillators. And inevitably, just before a signature solo, either the heating or cooling system in the building would kick on and the oscillators would drift in different directions. Fun stuff!

 

Hey, I just took my Mini to a gig on Saturday and did the same thing! Actually, since it was so hot out, and I was able to set up quite a while in advance and leave it on, tuning was pretty stable by showtime. I plug the headphone out into the tuner, and then from the tuner into the external input for feedback. I love my Mini!

[RABid]

The laughter is understandable. Of course back when you and I were getting started we laughed alot too. I remember laughing pretty hard when somebody asked if I could cover a piano part, an organ part, strings and some horn lines - all in the same song.

 

Life has changed a bit though hasn't it? We've now got "high tech singles" where one guy surrounded with digital toys does it all live in real time. ...

 

 

Actually, I had to do that. It got much easier once I got a stack of programmable keyboards. I don't think that music was any less "hi-tech" back then. Producers had a habit of bringing in a lot of extra musicians for recording sessions. It was usually the keyboardist in a coverband that had to cover all those parts as best as possible. On the positive side, it kept me working in good bands.

[SpaceNorman]

If you have a computer along on the gig, can't you use a software midi sequencer to do this?

 

Yes - there are lots of software sequencers that will do it - especially the "set list" mode stuff. Given my druthers, I'd rather go the hardware route - were it available. My issue with software is time. File --> Open --> Scroll --> Select (or whatever multi-layer path the user interface takes you to get there...). Then there's the inevitable inopportune screen saver start ups, display timeouts, move the mouse and then have to visually find it before you can do anything delays, etc. Heck there's even the issue of my old eyes not being able to see the litte PC screens on dark stages.

 

I use my computer with my keys all the time at home ... but absolutely hate taking it on gigs for a number of reasons (space, setup, boot time, etc.). The laptop at a gig is overkill when compared to what I really want. Worst, is that in the end - it won't really save me any time.

 

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.

[rdownton]

I use a midi foot controller (FCB1010 which has 10 banks of 10 programs). I also use it to change patches on my guitar amp as well. It can send patch changes on 2 channels from one pedal.

 

I do change patches during songs at times so I needed something that could handle multiple changes at once. I've set up banks 1 for set 1, bank 2 for set 2 etc and use those for when I need to make changes during a song. For situations where things change on the fly I've set up a bank for keyboard defaults. Pedal 6 - 10 along the top are defaults - Piano, EP's, Organ, Horns, Strings. The pedals along the bottom 1-5 are for things like turning the leslie on or off, turning on the overdrive on my K4 or default guitar settings so I can get to them fast. The FCB1010 also has two pedals so i use one as expression and the other as volume on my guitar amp.

 

Hope this makes sense. It took a while to set it up but not that it's done it works great. I can edit the controller on my computer so set changes can be updated fairly easily.

[J. Dan]

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.

 

There is a device that does this, but you'll have to find one on Ebay, and it's a bit cumbersome to set up, but I used to do it that way: The Alesis DataDisk. You can store any MIDI data - patch changes, sysex, complete sequences, whatever, as a song file and MIDI PC#'s will trigger them. The only trick is that you it numbers them in alphabetical order. So the first one in alphabetical order is always PC#0, etc. If you add a song and put it somewhere in the middle alphabetically, then all your PC#'s will increment by one for all the songs after it. The other downside is that it stores on 3.5" floppies which are rapidly becoming obsolete and hard to find, and in fact it uses the low density format (700k or whatever, not 1.4MB). Limit is something like 50 songs.

 

If you have a numeric keypad on your keyboard, just write the PC# next to each song in the song list. When it comes up, punch in the number, and voila, it sends out everything you want it to on any and all of 16 MIDI channels.

 

It would be nice if somebody came up with a modern version of that, where you could plug it into your PC via USB to program the changes and/or dump sysex, or SMF's, and assign PC#'s the way you want. Also, have more storage, and maybe 2 or more MIDI outs.

[MusicWorkz]

I'm sure I am not the only old timer browsing this thread and laughing. How can I put this? ...

 

 

"When I was a young lad just getting started in the business, changing a sound meant turning a bunch of knobs, flipping a bunch of switches, and listening to a note a low volume to see if you had dialed in the sound you want. I never thought anyone would consider selecting a programmed patch number as a problem."

 

 

I can imagine how humorous it must be . The premise is a bit laughable, but that is the price we pay with progress covering different synths, pads, rhodes, organ and strings at the same time in every song for a multi-song set.

 

I am just glad I haven't had to lug a B3 on my back every week, contend with dirty power messing with the tonwheels or drifting tuning for cold synths .

[MusicWorkz]

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj251/spacenorman/th_RigMaster-Setup.jpg http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj251/spacenorman/th_RigMaster-SetList.jpg

 

There is a market for this. You might want to patent this and pitch the idea to a company like A.R.T.

[jarrell]

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.

 

I know it doesn't help now, but that is one thing OMS Setup, OMS Studio Patches and the Studio 5 did back in the early 90's - it was great. You could change a patch on the Studio 5, in Vision, or on a synth that you designated as the "studio" channel, and it would change to a new Studio patch, which could include new bank/patches for every device in your setup, plus MIDI routing and processing. I think Yamaha has something like OMS Setup now, but more limited.

 

OMS and the Studio 5, or Opcode for that matter, never made it to OS X.

[Karl Schmeer]

Yes - there are lots of software sequencers that will do it - especially the "set list" mode stuff. Given my druthers, I'd rather go the hardware route - were it available. My issue with software is time. File --> Open --> Scroll --> Select (or whatever multi-layer path the user interface takes you to get there...). Then there's the inevitable inopportune screen saver start ups, display timeouts, move the mouse and then have to visually find it before you can do anything delays, etc. Heck there's even the issue of my old eyes not being able to see the litte PC screens on dark stages.

 

I use my computer with my keys all the time at home ... but absolutely hate taking it on gigs for a number of reasons (space, setup, boot time, etc.). The laptop at a gig is overkill when compared to what I really want. Worst, is that in the end - it won't really save me any time.

 

The device I want would take ALL the MIDI connected devices in a user's rig to the appropriate patches as defined in a predefined setup - simply by entering the digit ID # and pressing enter. It would be 3-4 keystokes to "stage" the next setup - and 1 button push (Enter) to issue the commands.

 

I am with you on all of this. I know a lot of people use laptops on stage these days, but they are just not tough enough for road use IMO, Plus they have a habit getting swiped. I know of a guy who had his patch changes setup on his laptop, and backed over it with his car in a hurry to get to the gig. I understand this was a rough night for him.

 

Anyway, I have been looking for something like this for some time. It seems these days the focus of the music industry is on

computer solutions for everything. Sadly not too much emphisis on hardware only solutions.

 

- Karl

 

 

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

I know a lot of people use laptops on stage these days, but they are just not tough enough for road use IMO,...

 

That´s true !

The question is and was,- what´s tough and reliable enough for the road.

The answer is: Nothing is and was reliable enough.

 

Even the best and "built like a tank" pieces of gear, especially instruments, weren´t and aren´t made for touring usage in 1st place. It´s all mass products and most musicians don´t do concert touring, they are the minority and the manufacturers know this.

 

I know of a guy who had his patch changes setup on his laptop, and backed over it with his car in a hurry to get to the gig. I understand this was a rough night for him.

 

He, he ... :-)

Imagine what can happen if you don´t transport your gear yourself, in opposite it travels in one of the tourtrucks over the country for 2 month and is always in the hands of crewguys and local stage hands.

I remember times, I got calls all day while being in the hotel after shows, reporting what´s damaged by mishandling and treatment by "technicians" even the gear was packed in cases and racked.

Most risky is packing/unpacking into or out of cases and wireing.

Small parts/items will fall off a stand or a riser, sometimes off the stage,- it´s just only a question of time.

A laptop/notebook is such a item.

A portable computer is manufactured for everyone.

A hardware midi-processor/matrix, incl. features only pros really need on stage, was never made for everyone.

Also all the "racked" midi-interface gear ever made to connect w/ computers wasn´t and isn´t pro gear for live usage, it´s for home- and pro-studio DAWs, fixed installations, not traveling and it always comes w/ a very reduced feature set in standalone mode.

If this is used by pros, it´s just only by reason there´s nothing other available or by lack of knowledge it´s existing somewhere.

The best MIDI matrix ever made, just only a 16x16 matrix w/ 32 preset memory and Midi-Prg.-Changes per channel was the Sycologic M16/M16R and the M16X output expander,- later there was a M48,- 16 Midi-Ins by 48 Midi-Outs.

The best processor and 8x8 matrix was and is the Miditemp PMM88E.

 

There´s nothing comparable, especially not in a combination of both,- and all this units are made for the live performing keyboardist and for the days of hard touring only,- but are usable in any studio environment too and up today if much outboard midi gear is existing.

 

It seems these days the focus of the music industry is on

computer solutions for everything. Sadly not too much emphisis on hardware only solutions.- Karl

 

Right!

It´s simply much cheaper to design a software product offering "lots" of features and in the end, it´s promises only compared to the hardware devices from the past, especially regarding products for midi-handling.

 

A.C.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nursers]

Ok this is a huge dredge up from the past but I found the thread interesting for both how much has changed but also how little some aspects have changed.

 

Mainstage certainly wasn't around then (was it?) - the set list modes on the more recent boards have improved too but some of the same hassles still remain

[CowboyNQ]

Man I am so low-tech in this regard it's embarrassing.

 

I do all my patch changes manually simply by saving sounds in "favourites" and recalling them as I need them by pressing a button (or touching a screen).

 

As documented elsewhere in these forums I recently had the chance to play a Kronos live for the first time and must say I really did enjoy the set list mode (and the tech support David).

[CEB]

The Kronos laughs at this thread.

[MikeyP]

OnSong triggers all my patch changes to all my iPad Synths AND shows me the lyrics, song notes

 

If you have an iPad I highly recommend MIDI'ing it up to your hardware synth and using it.

[The Real MC]

I will never depend on a laptop or mobile in my gigging rig.

 

My song configurations are done with my Kurzweil MIDIBoard. All my synth/rompler/clonewheel/effects are configured there - MIDI program #, volume, filter settings, effects - EVERYTHING. Even the MIDI matrix patchbay. Press one button and I am ready to play, easy to use more than one configuration in the same song. Some serious power there.

 

As a systems engineer for a day job, I quickly learned to use templates. Pre-planning is the key.

 

There's some mid level configuration too. Due to the 80s repertoire we play, I depend on the Andromeda a lot. I need to pull off a lot of analog sounds during any one song using the Mix mode to configure splits, layers, volumes, output routings, etc. The master controller sends a sysex string to put the Andromeda in Mix mode, then sends the program number so the correct Mix setup is ready.

 

The configuration management is crucial. I maintain a spreadsheet to keep track of my configurations because much of the MIDI setups gets re-used and I need to find unused ones for new songs. The spreadsheet lists the song and artist, then the master controller patch # containing all the configurations. Lot of work, but well worth it.

 

The set list changes often. I bring a printout of my song configuration spreadsheet to the show with me, and I write the master controller patch numbers on the songs on the set list.

 

I have yet to find a master MIDI controller as comprehensive as the MIDIBoard. They got it so right back in 1986, and today there isn't anything that can come close to it. It would be real nice if that kind of control were available in a module.

[rockinredeye]

I second the suggestion of a Kurzweil. Any of the PC3 series can do two things I use all the time.

1) Every Setup (multi) can have up to 16 channels/instruments and can send out MIDI changes to external modules on each channel. If you have multiple Setups per song, put them next to each other and move up or down to the neighboring Setup with a foot pedal.

2) There is a Quick Access mode that holds 10 Setups per page. I can type in 45 Setups at a gig in about 10 minutes, though I prefer to do this at home. I can do this because each Setup has a 3-digit number which I have in a list on paper. I'm just typing in 45 3-digit numbers. Mine happen to be numbered between 150-400, and no we don't have a 250 song list!

I don't use externals anymore, but you could have up to 16 if you wanted.