Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

Disadvantage to using TRS cables for unbalanced outs?


Phil Aiken

Recommended Posts

I know that they are not NECESSARY, but any potential problems?
Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 22
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I don't think there could be a problem... unless you're using them with your RMI keyboard.

 

I'm kidding. :)

 

I used to have an RMI Electra-Piano. Dave Horne is desperately trying to borrow it from me, but I'm afraid he would pound it and break the keys.

 

Then what would I do? :sick:

 

Tom

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whenever possible, use XLR cables. Nothing like a separate ground wire. Yes, TRS cables have a ground, but sometimes the barrel of the male plug is not quite big enough on "some" mfg cables, and you don't always get as good a contact as with XLR cables.

 

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there could be a problem... unless you're using them with your RMI keyboard.

 

I'm kidding. :)

 

I used to have an RMI Electra-Piano. Dave Horne is desperately trying to borrow it from me, but I'm afraid he would pound it and break the keys.

 

Then what would I do? :sick:

 

Tom

 

LOL!!! Dude, your awesome!

Ian Benhamou

Keyboards/Guitar/Vocals

 

[url:https://www.facebook.com/OfficialTheMusicalBox/]The Musical Box[/url]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TRS 1/4" cables - if used in an unbalanced connection simply have one wire (the "ring") that is not connected at either end with some 1/" jacks, or is shorted to ground with others.

 

Should not cause significant difference in reasonable lengths over a TS 1/4" cable. My old K2000VP is the only Kurzweil I have that is unbalanced, all the later are balanced, and I use TRS cables all the way.

 

XLR versus TRS 1/4" is another matter. The original XLR Cannon connector used in broadcast did have a separate connection for the plug shell (although that only benefitted if one had cable that had three internal wires plus a shield); however a lot of the later clones of that connector either leave the shell floating or simply connect it to the neutral pin. At that point (or if using typical cabling with two wires and a shield), the only real benefit of XLR over TRS 1/4" is added mechanical strength, and the locks which SOME XLR connector have to keep them from being pulled apart easily.

 

For long extension cables, I carry TRS plug to XLR male and TRS plug to XLR female adapter short cables. This way, I can use standard mic cables for runs to my EON powered cabinets, or lengthen a too short TRS cable without having to stock additional special cabling.

 

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I can say is where I use good quality XLR cables, there is no noise, with TRS cables, you can get more noise, and usually do. I had a technician show me the inside of a couple different mixers he had apart and the TRS cables his customer was using with them. The plug was not the correct size and did no make proper contact when plugged in to the female connector on the mixer. The customer was experience some channels cutting out on him. A good set of cables solved the problem. Not all cables are created equally. You don't have to buy Monster cables to get a "good" cable. But buying budget cables is a poor investment. Take a micrometer and measure the barrel of cables by various mfg's. You might be unpleasantly surprised.

 

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TRS 1/4" cables - if used in an unbalanced connection simply have one wire (the "ring") that is not connected at either end with some 1/" jacks, or is shorted to ground with others...

 

:blah: :blah: :blah:

 

Hey Jim,

 

Have you noticed?...

 

On technical questions like this, I'll set you up with a half-ass answer so you can come along and dazzle us with your brilliance.

 

So far, I think it's working well...

 

Don't you? :D

 

Tom

 

PS Oh, BTW... if, perchance, you hear a knock on your front door in the dead of the night...

 

You open the door only to find a lone K2000 (Serial #K20001902396525004:20) sitting there in a gently used SKB case, alone, with no place to go...

 

Would you take it in, repair it, and let me know when I can come by and pick it up?...

 

er.

 

Just sayin'...

 

Hypothermetical and allz. :cool:

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Key pair of words "GOOD QUALITY" There are good quality TRS plugs (like the better grade of Switchcraft), and some that suck. There are good quality XLR connectors, and some that suck. Same for the wiring between them.

 

Ya wanna dazzle the sales droids in the usual store, ask them about the percent shielding coverage (probably no use - the average one won't have a clue and will just give you a manure answer). 100% shield cost more than 50% shield. 30 gauge wire is used in some of the cheap junk. Tolerances that are somewhere near 1/4" - junk.

 

Tom, send me a PM with more detail. I don't have access to service manuals, etc. If the problem is relatively simple, I can probably get it going. If not, best bet would be Duane - he could tell which parts need to be sent to them.

 

Jim

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Potential problems with using TRS on TS sockets.

 

1) Lower signal quality

2) Less protection from ground loops and earth problems

3) Sometimes poor connections

4) Greater signal loss and degradation on long cables.

 

You need much higher quality conductors (shield and wire) in TS cables than in TRS cables for a variety of technical reasons. A 'good' TRS cable does not always perform as well as a 'good' TS cable on unbalanced connections. Typically, a TS cable will have a higher percentage shield than a similar quality TRS cable, and thicker signal wire with lower capacitance. The longer the cable, the greater the potential problems, signal loss and noise.

 

My advice is to use TS cables on unbalanced connections as that is what they are designed for. Good quality TS cables are cheap. Go out and buy a set.

 

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could conceivably end up where the wiper that normally makes the earth connection ends up connecting the ring at one end so that you don't get a two wire connection.

 

However, I have used TRS cables for TS connections and never had a problem.

 

The other potential problem as someone already pointed out is increased capacitive loses. TS inputs are almost always high impedance so only capacitive losses inside the cable are important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Potential problems with using TRS on TS sockets.

 

1) Lower signal quality

2) Less protection from ground loops and earth problems

3) Sometimes poor connections

4) Greater signal loss and degradation on long cables.

 

You need much higher quality conductors (shield and wire) in TS cables than in TRS cables for a variety of technical reasons. A 'good' TRS cable does not always perform as well as a 'good' TS cable on unbalanced connections. Typically, a TS cable will have a higher percentage shield than a similar quality TRS cable, and thicker signal wire with lower capacitance. The longer the cable, the greater the potential problems, signal loss and noise.

 

My advice is to use TS cables on unbalanced connections as that is what they are designed for. Good quality TS cables are cheap. Go out and buy a set.

 

Michael

 

 

I don't thonk you should put it this way. The four disadvantges you've listed are not inherit to using TRS cables on TS connections. You have a valid point about TRS cable being worse than TS cable at the same price, because TRS cable is more complicated. Also, TRS cable needs less shielding since it's purpose is balanced connections with great noise rejection.

 

 

But if you gget a good TRS cable (not the megadollar one, just normal good-quality cable), there will be no difference.

Stage: MOX6, V-machine, and Roland AX7

Rolls PM351 for IEMs.

Home/recording: Roland FP4, a few guitars

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Potential problems with using TRS on TS sockets.

 

1) Lower signal quality

2) Less protection from ground loops and earth problems

3) Sometimes poor connections

4) Greater signal loss and degradation on long cables.

 

Michael

 

Number 4 of what you have described above is more typically a characteristic of the opposite situation, wherein one tries to use TS cables with a TRS connection and we lose the benefits of CMR (as well as sending half the signal to ground). Number 3? For the discussion to have meaning, we need to agree that we are working with functionally equivalent cables/connectors.

 

"You need much higher quality conductors (shield and wire) in TS cables than in TRS cables for a variety of technical reasons."

 

What are they? Most pro situations use bulk cable of a given type and buy their connectors in bulk and make their own custom wires; or buy custom cables from one of the houses like ProCo, RapCo, Horizon, or Whirlwind (where the same situation re: pieces/parts applies); if what you say is true, pretty much NOBODY is accounting for it. If there was a functional performance loss, studios and pro sound companies would not use Belden 8412 in place of 8410, but it is done all the time. (And I pick those two particular cable numbers because they are probably the most commonly used cables in the business, and make a reasonable standard for this discussion.)

 

" A 'good' TRS cable does not always perform as well as a 'good' TS cable on unbalanced connections. ..."

 

Again, can you reference this? I don't dispute the fact that in a cable like Belden 8410 verses 8412, the 8410 has 1 wire size larger conductor (.020 inches thick,verses .018)and typically the shielding coverage is different among various 2 verses 1 conductor wire specs of the same product line from a given manufacturer.... but does it really show up in the performance in any audible way, in any way that is not wiped out by the already electrically noisy aspects of our business?

 

Not that I've been able to detect.

 

" The longer the cable, the greater the potential problems, signal loss and noise."

 

Always true, with any connection, using any cable.

 

There is a lot of voodoo surrounding a lot of pieces of our business. Cables are one of the prime areas. You can talk about things that are absolutely scientific fact, like skin effect and number of conductors in a given wire size; you can talk invention ( and there are SOOOOOOO many examples of this, particularly in the audiophile world...) but where the rubber meets the road... in a live or recording situation... most of these concerns are rendered moot by the rest of the signal chain/actual usage of what we do.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill - very well put.

I'm a former TV broadcast Chief Engineer - our first studio was colocated at the transmitter site, and a 1KW AM station next door. That's where I found out about 100% braid coverage THREE wire shielded cable - very pricey; but it was the only working solution to get the RF caused grunge out of the studio mic lines.

 

Shield grounded at the console end only for a Faraday shield, two wires for 150 ohm balanced audio at mic level, third wire connected on both ends for ground. (This was back in the old days when all the mic inputs on the console had Jensen transformers - a truly balanced line).

 

The station owner was crawling all over me about the noise; but cancelled my Purchase Order for the special cable. I pretty much had to put the job on the line to get the cable approved, but it did the job.

 

Quality ain't never cheap.

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By Moody Blues Keys:

 

Key pair of words "GOOD QUALITY" There are good quality TRS plugs (like the better grade of Switchcraft), and some that suck. There are good quality XLR connectors, and some that suck. Same for the wiring between them.

 

Bingo, Switchcraft connectors. The tech I've been using for over 20 years is a big proponent of the the high end Switchcraft components. As far as what kind of cables to buy, we all know by now that Monster cables have a monster price, and they bring a new definition of the term "over-priced". You can get good shielded cables with high end Switchcraft connectors at a "Fair" price if you have a relationship with a dealer that is willing to cut you some slack off the high retail prices of cables.

 

Interesting story about your broadcast engineer job. The station owner had no problem "crawling all over" you about noise but didn't want to pony up the cash for the solution. Most businesses are run like that. I've run into that situation with all the "small businesses" I've worked for over the years. What they need is a bigger dose of operating capital instead of hoping for "magic" to cure their poor business practices.

 

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And now ------ for the rest of the story.

 

My guys and I (Engineering Dept.) had been getting flak for weeks about noise in the studio mics. This was back in the 70's - the station did a whole lot of live stuff from the studio. All of the fixed (console to wall jack) wiring for studio mics had been done by standard practices (Belden shielded pair, the kind with the foil shield and a shield wire running along).

 

I called the RCA Field Engineer, and he suggested this cable - said that RCA sold it, don't know who made it for them. Anyhow, the standard Belden stuff back then was about 30c/ft or so, and this stuff was about $5/ft. We needed about 1,000 ft for the job. I ordered it.

 

Few weeks later, still no cable; and the station owner flew in from wherever he lived up North. He was at the station for the 11pm news - gave me grief again about the noise. I told him that I had ordered 1,000 feet of cable a month earlier, but it didn't arrive; I had just found out some "damn' fool" had cancelled my order (thinking it was some bean counter in corporate).

 

The owner informed me that he was the "damn' fool", that was WAY too expensive for mic cable. I told him that was the ONLY way to fix the problem - and we resolved it that he would OK the order, but, if it didn't work, I would be looking for another job.

 

At least he was smarter than the first owner - that idiot told us about 4:30 one Friday afternoon that he couldn't pay us (it was payday) cause he was "a bit short." that he would pay us next week. I was the only licensed operator on duty - went over and flipped the transmitter off the air right during one of the most popular ABC soaps - told him I'd turn him in to the FCC if he turned it back on - and to call me when he was ready to pay us. He told me that he would find a way to get the money - turn the transmitter back on. An hour later, he had the money.

 

Hey - I just thought - bar owners, TV station owners - same mentality. FT musician or FT technician - not getting paid calls for drastic action. I guess I was just a tiny bit hostile - amazing what a mixture of redneck and hippy will do.

 

I'm SO glad that my corporate days of working for others is over. There's just something so special about owning the corporation yourself - even if it is a itty-bitty one!

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I was just a tiny bit hostile - amazing what a mixture of redneck and hippy will do.

 

That, sir, is the QUOTE OF THE DAY! :thu:

 

There are many of us here who can relate. :D

 

Tom

 

PS er, can I quote you on that?

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moodyblueskeys:

 

You certainly had the upper hand. For unregulated jobs, the rules set out by the Dept. of Labor should be followed. Paydays have to be on a SET Day. An employer cannot generate paychecks when he/she feels like it or "has the money". No money? Tough tickets. If I ever showed up on payday and there was to be no pay, just a hollow promise, I would tell the employer to call me when paychecks were printed, but until then, I would "report off" for Unemployment Compensation so I could start collecting. It doesn't hurt to call the Dept. of Labor and report your company if they try to give you a rain check for pay checks!

 

$5 a foot is steep, but GREAT story!

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"My guys and I (Engineering Dept.) had been getting flak for weeks about noise in the studio mics. the studio. ... All of the fixed ... wiring for studio mics had been done by standard practices (Belden shielded pair, the kind with the foil shield and a shield wire running along)."

 

My questions about this are, how did you isolate the problem to the studio wiring; and why did you decide that it was not a routing problem?

 

I ask because your situation seems unique in that the only applicable solution was to replace the wire with higher quality wire, when the wire in use at the time was an industry standard product, used in thousands of studios and broadcast sites worldwide for just the application in which you were using it. Yet these thousands of sites do not show the same technical problems that you encountered. You say that the wiring was properly installed, and so we'll assume that this is correct. So the issue of routing is what seems most obvious to me. Could the wire runs have been to close to some inductor?

 

And let me add an anecdote of my own: Doing sound reenforcement a live remote for Larry King. Tried advancing the gig, but the assholes at Turner don't (or didn't) talk to lowly SR guys, didn't return phonecalls, made stupid demands and proclamations ("we're supplying all the mics...") and stuff like that.

 

Hooked up our system, they provided me with tails, gee, it buzzed. Big surprise. Could not get anyone to stop and talk to me about it. Put Jensens in line with the line feeds, lifted the grounds, but because I didn't supply the stage boxes I didn't have any mic level splits.

 

So Turner had sent an A2 out to be the A1, and she was also very young and more worried about her hair, and she talked like a Valley Girl and would not talk to me because I was obviously not cool, and the whole show looked to me as if it would crash and burn.

 

Finally I said, fuck it, and went back to my console. Someone in the truck took a listen, freaked out, then came running to me. I reply, "Sorry, it's your problem, not mine." Turner engineers were flown in, people scrambled all over the place, no joy. I walk out to the truck, pull their portable fluorescent light off of the external patch bay and guess what? The buzz is magically gone.

 

I'd love to say that this was the happy ending, but it was only the start of my adventures with the bozos from Turner. Their crew was bottom of the barrel, and the event sucked form my perspective. I've done these kind of events all over the country for all sorts of clients, and what should have been one of the best was a disaster. Oh, and their $35 omni mics worked great in a live room. ('screeeeeeeeeeeccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhh.....")

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill:

Routing was pretty much defined - this was back in the 1970's, all original B&W equipment was analog equipment, all tube. The mic runs were put in originally in conduit (separate from the AC mains - well spaced, no long close parallel runs). The building was a metal shell with a concrete pad. There were numerous runs of large conduit in the pre-planning of the building from one area to another - some for general AC power, some for lighting, some for TV camera cabling, some for audio, some for monitoring. The main control room had a small room for audio control and production, and was adjacent to the studio with dual pane windows between the control area and one side of the studio. The audio wiring went through the audio conduit into the studio, then was attached to walls so that there were XLR jacks scattered all around the studio. (there probably were snakes being made then, but we didn't find them in any of the pre-Web paper documentation).

 

All of the original Belden was put in before my time as C.E. Grounding was done by the broadcast standard at the time, there was lots of 4" copper strap buried under the concrete, with connections made to the various equipment rack areas. 2" strap was used for the smaller runs. The original building electronics were wired by locals (including myself) to specifications made by RCA field engineers.

 

Phase 2 was conversion to local color capabilities, most of that generation equipment was early transistor stuff; so there was a mixture. Examination of the audio with a high-gain oscilloscope showed that the grunge being heard had relation to the TV sync pulses - not AC powerline hum. There was no possibility at that time of relocating the transmitter. We were still purchasing almost all equipment from RCA (back in that day, they were a powerhouse in the TV transmitting business), and we did enough business with them that there was no problem in getting a couple of their engineers to look at the problem while they were there working on another issue.

 

I based my decision on purchasing the expensive cable on the reputation of their engineers, the fact that I had been able to find no other way of curing the problem, and the fact that what they said seemed logical. Perhaps I should have purchased enough cable for a single run as a test, but if I remember correctly, it was only available in 500' and 1000' spools. I'm pretty sure it wasn't made for RCA by Belden, but have no idea of the OEM except that it had an RCA part number.

 

TV broadcast was a bit different field than audio recording studios - because MOST audio recording studios were not located within a few hundred feet of a 25kw VHF TV transmitter. As far as why the Belden stuff caused us a problem when I knew it worked elsewhere (I had installed it in a bunch of radio stations) - I don't know. I just know that I was really glad to have an answer - something that worked to cure the problem. Believe me, there are enough other problems - even just keeping two of the early 2" quad video tape machines running along with all the other analog stuff that was about as stable as early analog synths tuned so they worked.

 

The bozos from Turner sound very much like the "engineers" who designed the Navy Marine-Corps Intranet (NMCI) project. They just plain didn't want to listen to any complaints from us guys out in the field (at the time I was the Shift Supervisor for Fri-Sun day shift, with about 90 people that reported to me) - and flat refused to believe that their specifications just plain DID NOT WORK - were not even willing to come from CA to the East Coast to see for themselves - until someone VERY high up in corporate came out to see why we were weeks behind schedule and lit a fire under their tail.

 

At the TV station, we actually carried the "Bozo the Clown" show. Unfortunately, the corporate bozos don't wear size 16 shoes and face paint with a big bright red wig (but they are far more stupid than the actor that played Bozo).

 

 

 

 

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"TV broadcast was a bit different field than audio recording studios - because MOST audio recording studios were not located within a few hundred feet of a 25kw VHF TV transmitter."

 

Yes, that is pretty are.

 

Starting to come back, though, as studios are moving away from the cities and closer to their transmitters. Few are going to move -that- close, though, even though today they would be able to solve the problems.

 

I understand about transmission huts. Stole their grounding scheme for my last studio because a fully enclosed Faraday was impractical, but there was some guy in the neighborhood who was transmitting, I assume from his car or truck, that would occasionally break into the monitoring rig in the previous studio incarnation. Buried the braid around the building, multiple rods,and like that. I never worked as a tech in radio or TV, but I did enough work with, for, and around them to at least be familiar with the facilities.

 

The broadcast video guys used to razz us all the time... "...our only worry?...one volt, peak to peak...", as they watched us sorting through audio issues. Our reply? Audio without video is radio. Video without audio is unemployment.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the original station design tried for as close to a fully enclosed Faraday shield as they could get (with doors, windows, etc.) Each of the pieces of sheet metal that made the sides of the building was drilled and bonded with copper strap before all the stuff was painted.

 

I've only seen a couple of buildings that really approached a complete shield. There are some buildings at Fort Detrick that have a thin layer of pure gold inside all the walls - NO windows, and very few doors. All to keep what Unc. Sam considers REALLY secret from getting outside the building. But - Unc. has a bigger budget than the average studio operator.

 

I worked in Greenville, NC for the Voice of America transmitting station for a couple of years. Each site - 3 500kw transmitters, 3 250kw, 3 50 kw, and a couple of 40kw Sideband - all in the short wave bands. The power figures are NOT effective radiated, they are actual watts leaving the transmitter. The 500 kw - final stage ran 15,000 volts at 52 amps. When we had to do some work outside in the 2500 acre antenna field at night, we would carry a 6' flourescent lamp along. Just stick it in the ground where working - light up with no electrical connections.

 

 

 

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...