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Well, I'm new here and just thought I'd add another awesome "HI" message for ya...

 

I'm somewhere around the beginner stage maybe approaching intermediate-ish.

 

My first love is computer programmin'. But playin keyboards is a close second.

My rig is here:

http://shazware.com/piano/rig.html

Except that now i have a CME GPP-3 pedalset in addition to just the one.

(4 pedals, 2 of em variable)

 

I'm workin' on a midi sequencer of my own.

Lighter, hopefully easier, more for a keyboard player's PRACTICE,

although less functional than the biggies out there.

Yea, it's freeware.

If anybody has some good ideas about "good directions to go in", I'm diein' for some feedback/ideas/recommendations/etc...

 

I've been to pianoworld.com, but those folks just do NOT seem interested in sequencers in the least.

 

Anybody besides me like pianoroll notation better than standard notation?

 

Anywayyyyz, just thought I'd say hi.

This forum seems pretty "substantial" :)

 

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Hello Steve and welcome to the forum.

 

Yeah, this forum is pretty substantial, with a number of professionals who are frequent contributors, and countless members who play at the highest levels. And generally we're a pretty civil and supportive bunch as well.

 

I have nothing to suggest for a 'small footprint' sequencer as I'm committed to Apple Logic Studio, but I applaud any coder following their passion to develop freeware. I managed a team of developers some years ago and have nothing but love for folks who code ex nihilo.

 

Many (most?) folks here embrace standard notation as a normal working tool for the same reason construction drawings are generally standardized - it's not perfect but it is the shortest path to communicating musical ideas to the widest audience with a minimum of misunderstanding. I find pianoroll notation useful for cleaning up MIDI events in a sequencer, but it doesn't serve the same purpose as standard notation.

 

Welcome.

 

..
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brace myself? :)

i can take plenty of criticism. it beats silence any day.

And I've heard a LOT of silence :(

 

standard notation. yep, I'll have to get around to that.

it's on the to do list, but kinda down there a ways...

right now, the closest it gets is scrolling scanned sheet music.

With the drum track or whatever.

 

I get that standard notation is needed.

But, man, it's so much easier to draw piano roll.

And if you've got a live recording, there's so much less mess just giving the midi file to somebody and have them just start picking out your ideas from there...

rather than formatting,formatting,formatting...

Well, at least it SEEMS that way to me being the newb i am at this...

 

Top of the "to do" list (as of now) is a

- play a riff and hop to that part of the sequence.

- sync background tracks to my live playing.

 

after these, I'll START tackling standard notation.

But, that's going to take a while so I NEED to have

funner stuff to work on in the short term :)

 

I think lilypad is a good place to check out when

i get to that stage, right?

 

Anyways, I'm hoping to keep -this- sequencer about

live play enhancement and piano PRACTICE and such.

 

But any and all ideas are most welcome.

I need to find a "path" that's different than that

of the "big boy" sequencer makers out there.

And I =think= there's some room in the area of

piano practice at minimum...

Do you use Apple Logic Studio when you do your

piano practice?

 

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Standard notation is ubiquitous, compact, and displays harmonic relationships in a way that piano rolls can't/don't. If you're editing "events" the piano roll is more precise and convenient, but for communicating musical ideas to other musicians standard notation is better. I understand how it makes your coding and display job MUCH harder though.

 

How would a practice sequencer differ from a full-blown sequencer that would make it preferable? For me it would be something that can let me quickly draw/write rhythms and chords and let me create loops of arbitrary lengths for playback using various sounds. However one can already do that fast in Ableton Live, but that's more for writing/composition. For practice and study one would probably prefer to do that in - you guessed it - standard notation.

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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Ok. I'm not arguing that piano roll notation is better than standard notation overall.

I just like it better personally is all.

 

There are a few areas where piano roll notation IS better.

- It shows an actual performance with all the wierd tweaks a performer did.

- Even a dummy can make it out. (accidentals are just right there, etc.)

 

And there are a few areas where standard notation IS better.

- Everybody knows it. Or oughta.

- It's usually the most compact - especially time wise. Although often not pitch wise.

 

I'll start to work on the standard notation.

Guess I might as well start bitin' into the bullet now.

Who knows, I could come up with some "improvements" to standard notation so it more accurately reflects a performance. We'll see.

 

But for help with practice, I was thinkin more along the lines of having background tracks sync with how fast you're playing a track the sequencer has that you're trying to learn.

And having it show the keys like in guitar hero.

It'll do that now. And wait for you to hit the keys.

Sort of "spoon feeding" you a song.

 

Check back with me in a couple months for my first simple stabs at standard notation. Probably very simple to start out with.

 

But if anybody has any "not in a sequencer yet" ideas, I'd love to hear those, too :)

 

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Piano roll notation? I'm not sure I follow.

 

You want to actually 'see' holes punched in a piece of paper or that image on a monitor? ... and work with that?

 

I'm all for reinventing the wheel though it makes sense to actually ride the wheel for a few thousand hours to see if it really needs improvement.

 

The argument for standard notation - it's been around for centuries and everyone speaks it .... well, most everyone.

 

Below is a jpg of what he's talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

http://pianocheater.com/img/tinker.png

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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I've not ever known anyone to use piano roll notation, and quite honestly I didn't know people actually did that -- player pianos yes, people no.

 

I agree that standard notation is really the way to go if you want to play other people's music. If you want to play original music or ever play in a band that plays original music, or you are playing with a bunch of musicians who don't read sheet music (guitar players are notorious for this) then you should also learn to "jam" -- that is, someone mentions the chord progression and you should be able to play the song and throw in solos and fills where necessary. It's very freeing to be able to hear that the chord progression is C, E, F7 with a bridge that is Am, G, F and then be able to quickly with a band play that. Sheet music just isn't readily available for everything -- especially not without paying for it.

 

BUT, if you're going to spend any time becoming proficient with piano roll notation or standard notation, go with the latter. Beyond that, learning music theory along with reading notes is highly recommended. Too many piano players out there are great sheet music readers but are lost without it.

 

Welcome to the forum, and good luck with the improving.

Steve (Stevie Ray)

"Do the chickens have large talons?"

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I find that piano roll notation is useful, as has been said before, during editing. You can easily see where any phantom notes are and eliminate them, you can see the actual timing, and easily correct notes that are off time individually without resorting to global quantization. So it is helpful.

 

But, agreeing with the others, when conveying musical ideas, piano roll is too difficult to read, and standard notation is more efficient.

 

BTW, Welcome to the forum.

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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Ok, well, not an ACTUAL piano roll with punched holes.

I mean the "bar graph" sort of notation in general.

Like the picture posted, but the pic is pretty "zoomed out"...

http://pianocheater.com/VIDEO.html has some better examples.

(you may have to refresh that dang page to get the videos to work.)

 

In the end, I'll add standard notation to my app.

But this'll take me a while.

At least I've resolved to start on it.

That'll at least make "other people than me" happier about it :)

 

I agree that knowing chord progressions, solos, fills and playin' with others is a must. Although I haven't reached the tail end of that yet, I will.

 

And improvising and composing are skills I'm "heading towards", too.

 

But these are all skills for "combining good notes n rhythms".

Whether the notes are shown on lines and spaces or in bars won't change the fact that you're going from this chord to that one.

 

My main goal with pianocheater is to help me get songs into my fingers faster than conventional sheet music can IF i have a midi file that's worth beans.

However, by FAR, I've found sheet music on paper to be a MUCH better rendition than those I find in midi files :/

 

As a stop gap, it'll scroll scanned sheet music pages.

With each .bmp you give it the bar# of the 1st and middle bar on the page and it'll scroll in half pages when it reaches that bar of the song. You also give it a list of sections and the bars they start on and it scrolls the verse back in for you after the chorus.

 

Anyways, in general, what I'm lookin' for is ideas of "stuff that ain't in the big boy sequencers".

Stuff that'll speed learning a new song.

 

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Here's yet another way to look at music.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjdDNLA5Ht0

 

(I couldn't get the 'Create a link to a webpage' dingy to work so I copied the link 'long hand'.)

 

This is a good example of someone trying to reinvent the wheel - all to avoid reading and working through conventional notation.

 

 

.... and yet another way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klavarskribo This is more like the 'piano roll' / graph method.

 

 

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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I understand standard notation is a pain in the a$$ as I fought learning it as well. (ok relearning it is more accurate.) I somewhat understand what you are saying. If you are approaching this from a learning perspective one thing people have found easy is seeinhg the actual letter names of the notes. As an example:

 

Melody line C, E, G, B, C ect.

 

Chord C

E

G

 

 

The chord is abviously a cmajor but I found learning the names of the notes is easier. From here, you could transfer the notes onto a music sheet in standard notation and put them in their proper place with the notes still there. I think a transition like this makes learning music easy initially and transfers over the knowledge necessary so you can ween off the note names and eventually use standard notation.

Begin the day with a friendly voice A companion, unobtrusive

- Rush

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Well, I'm certainly not trying to avoid standard notation.

Just looking to find ways to augment or improve it IF i can.

 

(the link is only a simplification. mostly an oversimplification. inversions and arrangement are important!)

 

I often come across that way. What with the name PianoCheater and all :)

It's kind of a play on guitar hero, for what it's worth.

 

Algorithms for cooking up standard notation have started bubbling. SpriteMap of each note duration. handling 8va/b. id'ing stacatto q notes versus 16th notes. handling variable bar width...

I'll get there!

 

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Having looked at your videos on the PianoCheater site I have to say that one positive thing about the piano roll is that (assuming one has recorded their actual playing) one can quickly judge their playing accuracy. Timing is everything in music and seeing whether you were late with a note or if you played all the notes in a chord at the same time is useful in a practice session. It seems that the piano roll is better for analysing execution and standard notation for communicating intent.

 

Oh, and where ARE my manners?! Welcome to the Forum :-)

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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Yes! :)

 

That's what I mean about showing an exact performance including all the tweaky stuff (that could make a song really ROCK.)

For example, play chords just a little late to build anticipation n such.

 

Just that a piano roll is EXACTLY what you played and not

a summarized version of what you should generally play.

All the "jazziness" you did is stored in there.

Add jazziness to standard notation and things start goin south.

32nd note triplets, baby...

 

And when things go all chromatic, i'm not troubled with the keysig and double sharps. The KEY is right there.

I can work out optimal fingering a little better on the fly.

 

Ok, I'm starting to let my preference for piano roll notation show way too much again - sorry :)

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Having looked at your videos on the PianoCheater site I have to say that one positive thing about the piano roll is that (assuming one has recorded their actual playing) one can quickly judge their playing accuracy. Timing is everything in music and seeing whether you were late with a note or if you played all the notes in a chord at the same time is useful in a practice session. It seems that the piano roll is better for analysing execution and standard notation for communicating intent.

 

Oh, and where ARE my manners?! Welcome to the Forum :-)

 

Rather than use my eyes when listening, I find it more accurate to use my ... ears.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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> Rather than use my eyes when listening,

> I find it more accurate to use my ... ears.

 

Well, yes, if you already know the tune.

But, if you haven't played that tune's rhythms before it's helpful to see that YOUR rhythms match the author's.

Instead of "just sound passable"

(the easier route I often find myself taking:)

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Having looked at your videos on the PianoCheater site I have to say that one positive thing about the piano roll is that (assuming one has recorded their actual playing) one can quickly judge their playing accuracy. Timing is everything in music and seeing whether you were late with a note or if you played all the notes in a chord at the same time is useful in a practice session. It seems that the piano roll is better for analysing execution and standard notation for communicating intent.

Rather than use my eyes when listening, I find it more accurate to use my ... ears.

True enough, Dave. I was referring to the type of microscopic analysis that can elude the ear. I've often found it illuminating to look at the piano roll after recording a sequence and seeing the little pushes and pulls that give my part and my playing its feel. Ears trump everything but that doesn't mean that a some after-the-fact visual feedback isn't useful, particularly in a software tool designed for practice as the OP intends.

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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I wrote my comment within the quote of what I was quoting.

 

Sorry. I'll go back and edit it if I can.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Having looked at your videos on the PianoCheater site I have to say that one positive thing about the piano roll is that (assuming one has recorded their actual playing) one can quickly judge their playing accuracy. Timing is everything in music and seeing whether you were late with a note or if you played all the notes in a chord at the same time is useful in a practice session. It seems that the piano roll is better for analysing execution and standard notation for communicating intent.

Rather than use my eyes when listening, I find it more accurate to use my ... ears.

True enough, Dave. I was referring to the type of microscopic analysis that can elude the ear. I've often found it illuminating to look at the piano roll after recording a sequence and seeing the little pushes and pulls that give my part and my playing its feel. Ears trump everything but that doesn't mean that a some after-the-fact visual feedback isn't useful, particularly in a software tool designed for practice as the OP intends.

 

Interesting... I have also been considering writing a piece of MIDI software to do realtime timing analysis. It would need to detect tempo & probably do analysis over 1 or 2 bar sliding window to give a continuous indication of whether you are on/ahead/behind at different points in the beat.

 

I've been doing a fair bit of rhythm training lately and it has made a big difference in my playing. If the software could track your progress (play over backing track at different tempos... keep track of how well you are able to rhythmically track the song and maintain (or accurately switch between) particular styles).

 

Even cooler would be to analyze your playing, then play your music back to you the way it 'seems' like you are trying to sound... ie at a consistent amount of swing or at a locked-in tempo. Intelligent quantization?

 

Anyways... cool & welcome to the forum.

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Hi lerber3 - if you're writing midi software, might i recommend:

http://groups.google.com/group/mididev

 

an email list about developing midi software.

 

Not sure what ya mean by Intelligent quantization.

But quantization is somethin I'm just sort of not a big fan of.

I guess I'll have to bite into it in order to SOMEhow get ok lookin standard notation out of a midi performance.

But it just kinda "irks" me :D

 

right now, my app doesn't do stats about how well you matched the "to learn" track(s). Just shows your playing over the "to learn" tracks so you can get a general idea.

 

In the "wait for me" mode, it'll mark the top 3 "wince" spots where you delayed the longest. But that's turned out not to be of much use.

 

I'm hoping to get logic to pick the 3 biggest note/rhythm gaps of your performace compared to the "to learn" track(s).

 

But that's still like 3 or 4 down on the "to do" list as it sits now.

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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Stephen,

Welcome. I don't really know what it is your doing, but I hope you stick with it. You may have a hard time convincing most of the old dogs around here to consider any new tricks, but I say any way you're inspired to express yourself creatively has validity.

The great master painters of the day hated the invention of the camera, but in no time, photography established itself as a significant art form existing side by side with oil paint. Perhaps someday we'll all read music using some method you've devised.

Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can!

 

www.stevenathanmusic.com

https://apple.co/2EGpYXK

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Ok, now don't be givin' me a swelled head or nothin :)

 

This is not a new method that i alone devised.

I'm just tryin to write an app to help me learn songs faster.

And although I've got a long ways to go, I do use it in my piano practice and it does help.

 

But midi and piano roll format and "piano hero"-ish apps already existed before I came around with this thingy.

 

Man. I shoulda signed on here a long time ago.

...Steve (writing my own midi sequencer - yeah, i'm crazy like that - http://pianocheetah.com)
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