How much is too much?

[Eric Jx]

Quick question:

 

Every gig we've played so far, we've been comped alcohol. Some owners specify drafts only, others aren't specific.

 

Last night we had a gig we had a gig where the agreed arrangement was the band would be comped alcohol and food. At the end of the night, we were shorted $50 from what we were promised, and then we were handed a $110 bill for food/drinks.

 

When we pointed that they were reneging on the agreement, we were told that we "abused the priviledge".

 

It felt like that scene from blues brothers.

 

Personally, I tend not to drink at gigs. Last night I had one water and a $7 plate of chicken tenders. So how much to bar owners expect the band members to drink? 3 drinks per member? What would you consider excessive?

 

 

 

[Aidan]

Do you know how much was consumed by the band in total? It's impossible to know how fair or not they were being. Personally, although I write complimentary food and soft drinks into my contracts, I'm always very aware of being fair to the client and not taking the piss.

 

For example, if I'm offered the facility to order my meal from the bar menu, I always try to choose from the low-to-mid end of the menu, price wise.

 

Likewise, beyond iced tap water (free most places), the most I'd ever dream of putting on a client's bar bill would be a couple of Diet Cokes.

[Joe Muscara]

I don't drink on the job.

[Guest LesS]

I always bring my own water. Some of the other guys in the band sometimes get drinks. Remember you want the place where you play to be profitable. I would make a band rule to not order alcohol at all and go light on ordering food and drinks.

I would contact the bar owner and tell them that the band has discussed what happened that night and that you will definitely won't be abusing the privilege going forward - you never know - they might hire you more often......

 

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

First, it was not a "privilege", it was a part of the deal.

 

Second, do you now understand why you need to get things in writing?

 

Third, Is it possible to go in and talk to the owner to repair the situation? If so, do so.

 

Fourth, If not, never play there again. Put out the word to other bands.

 

Fifth, recognise that undefined (unwritten) 'deals' are shifty and shady, and that you are the only one in a position to lose. Likewise, owners are noty going to sign some crazy multipage document with a hundred clauses. But a simple agreement with simple terms that is fair to both sides can usually be agreed upon; and there are several 'standard' contracts that can be pulled form the internet.

 

I have to say that it has been years since I had to sign a performance contract, but I havne't gotten screwed by a club owner since the 1970s.

 

Bill

[timwat]

I rarely drink on a gig, and coincidentally same is true for most of my bandmates. But I have noticed that most of the venues we play that comp food and drink have specific band menus printed up to avoid this kind of issue. First time I saw one, I presumed it was the result of a situation just like what you had on your hands.

[SpaceNorman]

I use contracts for my wedding/private party act - and always ask and document whether food and/or drinks are part of the deal. Note that I said "ask"! That's because I don't waste my time negotiating for food and drinks - I negotiate for $$$ and don't want my client to think for a moment that by giving me a plate of mostacolli and a couple of beers (which he's already covered in his food budget) is going to reduce my fees. I negotiate our fee first - and then ask if the band is welcome to eat/drink with the guests (and don't really care about the answer one way or the other).

 

The same principle applies to bar gigs - although I seldom use written contracts with the corner joints I tend to work. I assume that food and drinks are NOT comped - and price the gigs accordingly.

 

IF I do decide to have a drink (and that's not very often) - I order it with cash in hand. It's pretty common for the bartender to look at me, realize that I'm the band and wave off the money. When that happens I promptly stuff it in the tip jar and say thanks.

 

I do a little sub work now and then which gives me the opportunity to see how other bands work. It never ceases to amaze me when I find myself playing with a group who are all about the freebies. I've hung out with enough waitri in my time to know that the bar staff knows when bands are "cheap" - and that they treat them accordingly. I make it a point to never let myself get put in that category.

 

[Eric Jx]

I don't want to focus too much on the specifics of this gig. We're not going to play this venue again. It's a shame, but we burned this bridge. We were told musically we were great, but there are other issues have closed this door.

 

I'm more interested in what's expected of us going forward.

As I said, I don't drink at gigs. The lead singer generally doesn't either. The other 3 band members may drink 13-14 draft beers between them. Is that too much?

 

 

 

[frogmonkey]

I want to echo the point that it's not a "privilege" if it was agreed to as part of the terms. You need to go back and break some kneecaps (not really).

 

If the venue is paying well, I don't mind if they charge me for food and drinks. But usually they don't pay well. And while I do try to be moderate in my food and drink choices when it is comped, I play a lot of freaking bar gigs out of town and if I ate the cheapest thing on the menu I'd be eating crappy food all the time. Eating well is important to me.

 

If a 5-piece band drinks 3 premium beers per guy, what's the owner's expense on that? $15 at most? 3 drinks per guy is reasonable. Lucky for me half my band doesn't drink:)

 

Always tip the bartenders and waitstaff! Even if it's comped!

 

 

[SK]

Is that too much?

I don't drink, but would 13-14 draft beers come to a $160 bar bill ($110+50 shorted?)

 

If this happened in the future, I'd ask to see the bill to find out who spent the money, or whether the club might be at fault.

 

I also don't put food/drinks in a contract. If they offer it, fine, and their goodwill is returned by not abusing it.

[David Loving]

If they can still play, so what? I don't care who drinks at a gig just so the player isn't impaired and can play well. Our late bass player used to go through tequilla like it was Evian water on a hot day. He would act a little bizarre - threw a chair at the vocalist once - but people tolerated him since he was the local dean of the blues bassists. We worked around Johnny's dietetic habits. He was one of a kind though. RIP - the tequilla hurt his longevity. The others drink responsibily. I don't drink, myself; except water that I bring myself. I can't play, or do anything, loaded.

[B3_borne]

I've run into this problem myself. If the bar wants to comp meals for the band that's OK everyone in the band has to eat ... but on the booze side I say NO, everyone in the band is responsible for their own booze tab.

 

Years ago we got comp food and booze, 2 guys drank over $100 worth of booze and it was deducted off our rate, the rest of the band (3-guys) only had 2 beers each all night. When we asked the 2 guys to pay the difference, because in reality they were paid more than the rest of the band, a pissing match insued ...

 

 

[kanker.]

My opinion, if you're being payed to perform a job, you shouldn't be drinking, getting high, whatever. Musicians wonder why they aren't taken seriously....

[Aidan]

I'm with Kevin on this one. As a bandleader, I would be very concerned if my colleagues had consumed around five beers each on a night they're supposed to be working. For a start, that would be enough to put most people over the UK drink-drive limit.

 

Everyone needs to hydrate - that's why I think a couple of complimentary softs are reasonable, but would expect to buy a beer.

 

The reason I specify food in my contracts is twofold. Firstly, I frequently travel two to three hours to venues and am invariably there at times when I would normally be eating at home. Secondly, many venues are isolated country hotels where the only nearby food is theirs, usually at pretty flash prices.

[SpaceNorman]

...I play a lot of freaking bar gigs out of town and if I ate the cheapest thing on the menu I'd be eating crappy food all the time. Eating well is important to me....

 

I don't know about you, but I plan on eating well no matter what. It doesn't matter to me if I'm playing or not, whether it's a high paying gig or a low paying gig - or whether or not food is comped - I'm STILL going to eat well. You won't find me quibbling with bar owners over food/drink tabs. I book my gigs based on the cash $$$ that I negotiate - and keep my gastronomical requirements completely separate. If it ends up I get fed and a some free drinks ... bonus! But I'm never gonna waste my time taking a gig because I'm getting a free dinner and a couple of drinks.

 

My bandmates all pretty much feel the same way. As a bandleader - I've had no problems straightening out a couple of the hired guns we've used who got a little pissy about whether or not drinks were comped. In my mind,real pros don't quibble about whether they're getting stuff for free.

 

 

 

[Eric Jx]

I'm not that concerned with the alcohol consumption from a performance perspective. I don't think we've ever had an "off night" due to a band member being wasted.

 

My concern is I want the band to build a reputation based on our music abilities, not our drinking habits.

[JeffLearman]

I'd walk away from the $110 bar bill: "Privilege or deal? When did you let us know we were going over the limit? And you owe us $50. Pay that and we can discuss the bar bill."

 

I don't know how much is too much, but there's definitely a line.

 

The right thing for the venue to do is to let the band know when they're going over what they think is reasonable, not hitting them with a bill at the end of the night.

[KenElevenShadows]

I frequently drink at gigs, and don't see the problem since I am performing well and am friendly, respectful, and responsible.

 

And also, if it were part of the agreement, then it's part of the agreement, like frogmonkey says.

 

Next time, get that agreement in writing and it should all go down better, as Bill mentioned.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

I agree that I would not want alcohol involved my my contracts, they would be about money. I like to get a case of bottled water when traveling. I think that booze is the responsibility of the players, not the venue. Food? Depends. Most of the upscale resturant/bars that have entertainment use an employee menu for the bartenders and waitresses that is reasonably priced and usually limited but sensible. Most of the time, bends can eat from that menu, if they ask.

 

In this situation, however, it appears that the beverages were offered as a comp, then used as a hammer to smack the band after the fact. That is wrong.

 

Bill

[Eric Jx]

I think when a band draws well, and the venue has a great night at the register, then issues like this would be overlooked.

 

As far as last night is concerned, the place was dead. This was the first time we played in this area (are past gigs were about 50 miles west of this venue). There were about 30 people there who were direct invites of the band. There were also about 15 people at the bar who I'd assume were regulars.

 

For a small corner pub 45 people might be plenty. But this place was a fairly large marina/restaurant, and it was empty.

 

Earlier the bar owner said he expected a slow night because it was the night before mothers day.

[MusicWorkz]

Get it in writing next and any time you do something like this. Doesn't matter the terms, but that the actual agreement is documented.

[Jim Alfredson]

Ah, the old "book the new band on a night before a holiday and then blame them for the slow night" trick. Gotta love it.

 

I hope you didn't just pay the bill without actually seeing a receipt.

 

Most clubs either have drink tickets or have a per diem for each member. Friday night we played a club that had been fully comping the band's food and drink but they told us before we ordered that night that each member now had a $20 limit. It wasn't because of us (we are always respectful of the club and the waitresses) but because of the ailing economy. It's still a good deal.

 

I don't drink and I usually eat before the hit at home, unless I'm driving several hours so I don't really care about such stuff. But a $110 bar tab seems excessive if everyone was just drinking beers. Plus, what happened to the $50?

 

Gotta put your foot down. And spread the word to other musicians about this club owner's lack of ethics.

[Eric Jx]

The $110 included the food. We ended up splitting the difference.

 

They kept the extra $50, we didn't pay the tab.

[zephonic]

I don't smoke or drink, and the people I usually play with don't abuse complimentary consumption. However, some 6 or 7 years ago, we used to play for this club owner, who ran the club as a hobby to entertain his friends and women (he was actually an arms dealer).

After the gig he'd always come and compliment us on a job well done, and then tell us to order whatever we want. This went on for a month (we played there once a week), but when our agent went to handle the payment he was short-changed on account of all the food and drinks we had taken. Go figure...

 

 

 

[frogmonkey]

...I play a lot of freaking bar gigs out of town and if I ate the cheapest thing on the menu I'd be eating crappy food all the time. Eating well is important to me....

 

I don't know about you, but I plan on eating well no matter what. It doesn't matter to me if I'm playing or not, whether it's a high paying gig or a low paying gig - or whether or not food is comped - I'm STILL going to eat well. You won't find me quibbling with bar owners over food/drink tabs. I book my gigs based on the cash $$$ that I negotiate - and keep my gastronomical requirements completely separate. If it ends up I get fed and a some free drinks ... bonus! But I'm never gonna waste my time taking a gig because I'm getting a free dinner and a couple of drinks.

 

My bandmates all pretty much feel the same way. As a bandleader - I've had no problems straightening out a couple of the hired guns we've used who got a little pissy about whether or not drinks were comped. In my mind,real pros don't quibble about whether they're getting stuff for free.

 

 

 

I'm guessing my average pay is substantially lower than yours. From previous posts, I'm pretty sure you play in a cover band, and that you make good money doing it. I make my living playing original music, and it's really a Quixotic quest. Pure foolishness.

 

But a deal is a deal. If a venue says up front that food and drinks are part of the deal, then I depend on that, and it is very important. And if it's part of the deal it isn't "free", it's partial payment.

 

As far as eating well no matter what goes, I find it to be impossible when on the road, even ordering the best thing on the menu. Most places just don't make very good food-- I miss my days as a jazz pianist at fancy restaurants in NYC! And I sure can't afford to go down the street to the fancy restaurant to eat every night, assuming there is good restaurant in town.

 

Ironically, it is often the best paying gigs that also offer us the best hospitality. Festivals offer us backstage catering, as do theaters. Opening for big acts we often get the benefit of their hospitality riders, too. Weddings offer us food and drink, though I never ask for it or expect it.

[bloodyMary]

I'd expect a couple of beers/drinks per band member at the bar and a case of bottled water on stage. We get water every time, it's necessary to perform. Beers are seldom offered, and we never ask - just get our own. Our show is 1.5 hours long though, maybe I'd behave differently playing all night long.

[SpaceNorman]

But a deal is a deal.

 

I agree with you 100% in this respect. A deal is a deal. In the situation the OP outlined ($50 less than agreed upon and a renege on the food and drink agreement) - I'd be pissed too.

 

My comments were really meant to drive home the point that I avoid deals that try to reduce my fee by slipping me dinner and drinks. My point is that whenever I'm working with a client on a deal - I negotiate with my focus purely on our fee. I don't want to reduce my $$$ fee reduced by one thin dime simply because they're going to throw in a little food and drink.

 

Once our fee has been established - I ask if the band is welcome to eat and drink along with guests simply so that we can plan accordingly. I'm fully ready to be told NO - and don't really care one way or the other.

 

I also agree with you - the best paying gigs usually have the best hospitality in terms of care and feeding of the band.

[David Loving]

I wouldn't play at that bar again.

[Ian Benhamou]

Every club or gig is different. My cover band plays 4-5 times a month at a famous pub in Montreal. They pay us the standard bar scale, but they include $150 food and drink tab for the band. I've played there for almost 2 years now and never have they hit us with a bar tab. Meanwhile, we play around the corner at a similar establishment and although the pay is exactly the same, the band doesn't get food and we have a 2 drink per player limit. Anything else gets charged. Another similar place we play at, albeit not Downtown but seep in the suburbs also has the same pay scale, but zero bar tab not even a bottle of water. Coroporate gigs almost always include free food, and often a hotel room if you have to travel far. And festival gigs often supply a case of beer and bottled water each backstage.

 

Any of these scenarios is fine by me, I'm not there to get free stuff, I'm there to make money, and any club owner or client who tries to negotiate free food/drink with the price of the band is wasting their time! Just as an example, if you call a plumber to fix a broken pipe in your house, do you think if you feed him a plate of pasta and couple beers while he's working he's going to cut you a deal on your bill? I don't think so!

 

Now while I am aware that many musicians abuse of these privileges, I make it a point to never do it myself. I've played with musicians who light up joints backstage, down a few beers between soundcheck and gig time and I'm sorry to say that it affects their performance. For the record, I'm a pot smoker, and cigarette smoker and after working for 10 years in the restaurant business have worked up quite a high tolerance for alcohol. BUT, work is work and therefore I reserve those pleasures for nights off or after the gig.

[Stan Martin]

I never eat or drink at gigs. I bring my own water, and recently (Friday nite) ate a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in may car between sets at a posh country club in Palm Beach that was serving a lavish buffet and threw the leftover food away. Lots of upper end places - including all of the Ritz Carltons I've played, treat the musicians as second class citizens. We are servants there, but I don't care. I'm working, I agreed to take the gig on their terms. I don't go thru the front doors, I can't mingle with the guests. It's the way it is.

 

If you don't like it, don't play there. I'm sure they will be able to find someone else.