I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but ...

[ha ha faa_Q]

... I don't remember seeing this in the news while I was living in the U.S. http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/palast.ram Enjoy

[henryrobinett]

Yes. It is so. Infuriating that we allowed it to happen. I couldn't believe that Harris, Jeb and the Supreme Court allowed it. Well I take that back. I COULD believe it. But it confirmed my worst fears about this country.

[Dogfur]

Yep -its true...sigh... Don't let any wingnuts try to spin it away either. I got Palasts book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" and it very thoroughly and solidly links Harris and Jebbie to manipulating voter roles to keep thousands from voting (mostly black) in traditionally Democrat-based districts. I think this is why there is such a polarized approach to politics and anything involving the pResident. It is very important to note how little Democrats did about this tragedy, and should send a message to those who are dogmatically align themselves with either party.

[BLEED]

KILL THE BUSHES :evil: KILL THE KENNEDIES :evil: KILL [b]KILL[/b] [img]http://web.mit.edu/mukherji/www/bazooka.jpg[/img] the rodents should rule DAMNIT :thu:

[Super 8]

It was a very very close race. It is a forgone conclusion that whoever won the election was going to be contested. C'mon! Obviously that is what would happen! It's happening right now! Why didn't you see this on television? Well, simple... It's not news. I know I'm going to be filed away as a radical right-wingnut for saying that. But ask yourself this question; If the evidence builds such a clear case that Bush stole the election, then why isn't Al Gore sitting in the Oval Office right now? Don't give me this crap that the poor poor democrats are powerless to stop the all-powerfull Bush family from doing what it wants. That's nonesense! They didn't win against Bill Clinton! Clinton won both elections, and Gore almost put the Dems in the whitehouse for a third term! If the Democratic party REALLY thought that Bush rigged an election, this thing would be front page news and the legal battle would make the Kenneth Star case look like an episode of Judge Judy! In addition, I think most Republicans would be outraged as well! This is ridiculous! It's like a bunch of little kids screaming at each other saying; "The only reason you won was because you cheated!". If you don't like Bush, fine! I didn't vote for him either! Find a candidate from ANY party -not just the Dems- and vote for the person you think would do a good job in office. But come back to terms with reality, people! If Bush is the worst or best President our country has had... Either way, he is in office because HE WON the ELECTION!

[Prague]

"Bestseller Success for Anti-US War Books" Palast's books are usually referred to in this vein. He's left-wing.

[ha ha faa_Q]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b] Why didn't you see this on television? Well, simple... It's not news. [/b][/quote]It was all over the BBC, which presents news in a significantly more objective manner than any American newssource. It would have been on CBS but instead of doing a thorough investigation, they simply called Jeb Bush's office, and (of course) he denied it. Some investigation. It shouldn't come to anyone's surprise that the U.S. media is lacking when it comes to exploring fundamental issues in depth. For instance, in the wake of the death of Ayatollah Muhammad Bakr al-Hakim in the terrorist attack in Baghdad, probably the most significant setback to establishing security in Iraq, the U.S. media is bombarding its viewers and readers with stories about how an asteroid is planning to hit the Earth ten years from now. I'm not going to bother to get into the details of the conspiracy. If anyone wants to learn more about it, there are resources available to do so. Ciao Jimmy

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by ha ha faa_Q: [b][QUOTE]Originally posted by Super 8: [qb]I'm not going to bother to get into the details of the conspiracy.[/b][/quote]What a relief... :rolleyes:

[Wow]

[quote] This is ridiculous! [/quote]You expected different? Back at ya. :thu:

[jcskid]

ya know guys if i recall the Dems were busted for giving cartons of cigs away to voters in MI. and another state plus got busted for something in FL. oh yeah questionable missing voter box's and length of time they took being transported. so if anyone cheated boys it was the Dems... this is so old news scott

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by ha ha faa_Q: [b]...It was all over the BBC, which presents news in a significantly more objective manner than any American newssource. It would have been on CBS but instead of doing a thorough investigation, they simply called Jeb Bush's office, and (of course) he denied it. Some investigation.[/b][/quote]And you know this from what source? Do you know who investigated at CBS? Or are you simply repeating something you were told? I find it very hard to believe that someone at CBS told you, personally, that the sum total of their investigation was a call to Jeb Bush's office. [quote]Originally posted by ha ha faa_Q: [b]...It shouldn't come to anyone's surprise that the U.S. media is lacking when it comes to exploring fundamental issues in depth. For instance, in the wake of the death of Ayatollah Muhammad Bakr al-Hakim in the terrorist attack in Baghdad, probably the most significant setback to establishing security in Iraq, the U.S. media is bombarding its viewers and readers with stories about how an asteroid is planning to hit the Earth ten years from now...[/b][/quote]Thank you very much for telling me what's on American tv news from Spain. :rolleyes: Here's a voice of someone who watches American tv news on tv in the middle of the U.S.; I haven't seen the reports regarding the asteroid story, but I've seen plenty of coverage about the bombing that killed the cleric, as well as followup on the impact his death is causing due to his many followers. Maybe you should ask questions instead of tossing out uncorroborated "facts" about what is going on.

[Super 8]

Thank you, Fantastic S.

[Wow]

[quote] ya know guys if i recall the Dems were busted for giving cartons of cigs away to voters in MI. and another state plus got busted for something in FL. oh yeah questionable missing voter box's and length of time they took being transported. [/quote]Here is another one, In South Decoda , Tom Daschile and his wife went to the Indian reservations and gave away truck loads of clothes and goods to the Indians two days before the election. Then they provided busses to ship them to the polls. Would this be a violation of "campaign finance reform'?

[whitefang]

[quote]Originally posted by jcskid: [b]ya know guys if i recall the Dems were busted for giving cartons of cigs away to voters in MI. and another state plus got busted for something in FL. oh yeah questionable missing voter box's and length of time they took being transported. so if anyone cheated boys it was the Dems... this is so old news scott[/b][/quote]Where did you here THAT? I'M a voter in Michigan, and I DIDN'T get any smokes! DAMN! Did that come from the same folks who brought us the urban legend that Mikey from the Life cereal commercial died from mixing soft drink and Pop-Rocks? Or from a more "reliable" source like Fox News? :rolleyes: Whitefang

[jcskid]

[quote]Originally posted by whitefang: [b] [quote]Originally posted by jcskid: [b]ya know guys if i recall the Dems were busted for giving cartons of cigs away to voters in MI. and another state plus got busted for something in FL. oh yeah questionable missing voter box's and length of time they took being transported. so if anyone cheated boys it was the Dems... this is so old news scott[/b][/quote]Where did you here THAT? I'M a voter in Michigan, and I DIDN'T get any smokes! DAMN! Did that come from the same folks who brought us the urban legend that Mikey from the Life cereal commercial died from mixing soft drink and Pop-Rocks? Or from a more "reliable" source like Fox News? :rolleyes: Whitefang[/b][/quote]i dont watch fox. in fact i hate fox period. either the usual 3 or CNN online. being reported during the whole FL thing. it was kinda funny to watch the dems woulf poke this in there then the repubs poked something else..it was like watching my kids fight... Scott

[Anderton]

As I live in Florida, I got a pretty good perspective on what happened. Yes, Gore should indeed have won in Florida. Several tens of thousands of black voters were not able to vote because they had been mistakenly listed as felons. There were many other examples of voter irregularities. Gore tried to pursue this in the courts, but the negative backlash was too severe -- "sore loser," "get over it," that sort of thing. As the election dragged on and on, Americans -- rightly or wrongly -- just wanted to get it over with. But before you get too worked up, travel back in time with me to 1960, when JFK won over Nixon thanks to Cook County, Illinois, a solid part of the democratic machine where there is considerable evidence that results were rigged to get Kennedy elected. The margin was razor-thin. Bottom line: both parties do it. There are places where dead people vote and dogs vote. There is fraud. Politices invites corruption. The REAL news story, the truly bizarre one, would be a headline that screams "FAIR ELECTION HELD; NO EVIDENCE OF ANY FRAUD." I don't like it any more than you do. Gore received a majority of the popular vote and had there been a democratic governor in Florida, he would have won Florida's electoral votes too, thus winning the election. But he was on the short end of the fraud stick. Just remember, neither Democrats nor Republicans are above cheating. The endless Republican vs. Democrat, Conservative vs. Liberal debates here and elsewhere miss the fundamental point: people who identify themselves so strongly with particular labels are likely to do "whatever it takes" to advance their agendas, whether it's distorting the truth, revising history, spiking trees, awarding sweetheart contracts to Halliburton, whatever. And things are going to stay this way until people WISE UP and start realizing that the truth is found in a lot of different places, but uncovering it take a lot of effort...effort that a lot of people aren't willing to spend. It's a lot easier to parrot what you've been told than to do the research to figure out what to say!

[karmadude]

This is very scary for me personally. I know the man as a childhood friend that owned DBT and developed the software used in this news report. DBT bought his interest in the company after it was reported he was used as an informant in a Bahamian drug venture as a pilot over 20 years ago. DBT bought his shares for over $196 million. He recently formed a new company called Seisent and has developed the most intrusive of all criminal databases and has a contract with the Office of Homeland Security and the FBI. This is where the FBI and the State of Florida got nervous over my friend's former 'alleged' drug ties and DBT then forced him out after the 2000 election, about the time of this video report. Without going into more than necessary, I found out about these ties a couple of weeks ago when doing a Google search on my old friend because his brother's upcoming wedding announcement was in the paper. With that said, do your homework and it gets scary from there.

[henryrobinett]

Very well said Craig. I've always been a Democrat. This is very stupid of me. I'm no longer going to affiliate with a party. There's truth and lies on all sides. The more one aligns with a side the less one is able to think/see clearly because one is constantly defending, attacking or parroting the party line. I do think what happened in Florida was despicable. I think this administration is disgusting, not because I'm a Democrat, but rather because of my philosophical bent. Not neccessarily the same thing all the time. Yes the Kennedy's were also similarly guilty and possibly their shinnanigans led to his death. If we did a little less of casting aspersions and more talking to one another in non-confrontational ways we might all learn some things.

[karmadude]

In regards to my earlier post, if you can draw a 6 degrees of separation sililoquy, then I personally know, grew up with, the man responsible for putting Bush in the White House. This has nothing to do with Harris, Jeb or anyone else, other than the fact that his software was chosen to determine the voters to disqualify. Here is what is scary about what the NEW software can do he is contracting with Florida and the FBI. Let's say you have information that indicates a red Ford pickup truck was used to perpetrate a crime. In seconds, law enforcement can get a list of all red Ford pickup owners in given geographical area by searching a number of databases. What his (I am not naming his name for reasons that are my own) software does is use a proprietary technology that searches all known criminal databases and other sources of public information to complile this search information. Ashcroft's name comes up in these Google searches associated with this SW.

[Super 8]

Why is it that when it comes from Craig it is so much more believeable than when it comes from... Oh, say, Johnny B??? Unsettling info. Very disturbing. Maybe Stranger has a point after all. Geezzz, I dunno... I voted Green last time... I'll vote Green next time. If EVERYBODY just voted for the candidate they thought was best, instead of this 'lesser evil' crap, imagine the changes! Vote your heart.

[Peake]

[quote]Originally posted by BLEED: [img]http://web.mit.edu/mukherji/www/bazooka.jpg[/img] the rodents should rule DAMNIT :thu: [/quote]I'm afraid they'll be too "busy" to ever become effectively organized. Kept down by The Man and his evils! [img]http://www.midiwall.com/misc/pics/BowlingChipmunk.jpg[/img]

[GZsound]

[b]Originally posted by Anderton: As I live in Florida, I got a pretty good perspective on what happened. Yes, Gore should indeed have won in Florida. Several tens of thousands of black voters were not able to vote because they had been mistakenly listed as felons. There were many other examples of voter irregularities.[/b] Craig, just a question. Were these tens of thousands of lacks mistakenly listed as felons in the democratic controlled counties? It sure seems that those were the counties where the biggest difficulties with ballots and counting took place. I have had a hard time trying to figure out how there can be a conspiracy in the voting system of counties that were in pretty much complete control of the democratic party.. Do I have my facts straight?

[Salyphus]

Read http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm

[strat0124]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b] [quote]Originally posted by ha ha faa_Q: [b][QUOTE]Originally posted by Super 8: [qb]I'm not going to bother to get into the details of the conspiracy.[/b][/quote]What a relief... :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]Other George Bernard Shaw quotes: The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw When a thing is funny, search it carefully for a hidden truth. George Bernard Shaw "Do you know what a pessimist is?" "A man who thinks everybody is as nasty as himself, and hates them for it." George Bernard Shaw, An Unsocial Socialist (1887) When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty. George Bernard Shaw A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. George Bernard Shaw I am a Millionaire. That is my religion. George Bernard Shaw Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few. George Bernard Shaw Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. George Bernard Shaw Hell is full of musical amateurs: music is the brandy of the damned. George Bernard Shaw

[Anderton]

<> The problems were statewide. Gore went for recounts in the mostly Democrat areas because he felt he had the best shot at picking up votes there (not surprising). The issue of the voting snafus falls to Katherine Harris, registrar of voters, and Theresa Lapore in West Palm Beach. The mechanism that controls legislation and representation (e.g., Democrat-controlled counties) is separate from what goes on in Talahassee that sets state-wide protocols, and is currently in the hands of the Republicans. It was well within the power of the Republicans to mess with the system. But to me, that's only half the problem. The other half is, as I said, I believe many, if not most, Democrats would do the same thing under the same circumstances. Win, win, win, at all costs - smear campaigns, outright lies -- what was done to John McCain in North Carolina sickens me. The guy was a friggin' POW, has more than served his country, and just before the Republican primary, a circular appeared out of nowhere talking about "John McCain's black child." The implication was that it was some kind of out of wedlock example of miscegenation. It's true, McCain has a black child -- an ADOPTED black child. How sick can these people be to turn an examplary, selfless act into an albatross around a hero's neck? How low is that?!? But how pathetic it is that the electorate BELIEVES what they hear, and that those lies influenced the primary. Bush is bad news, no doubt about it. His web of corporate connections and sweetheart deals is damning. I just love the way that loser brother Neal Bush's software just happens to have been chosen by the state of Florida for its educational system (I think it's involved with the FCAT testing of which Jeb is so enamoured). Hey, remember the Silverado scandal/bailout and Neal's involvement? I thought not. BUT Clinton lied under oath to the American people AND the grand jury. I realize that "no one died when Clinton lied," and it was just about a personal affair -- but that doesn't defend him in my book. And does anyone really believe that Hillary "just got lucky" in her stock deals? I think Bill was more locally crooked than globally crooked, but I'd sure count my fingers after shaking his hand. Bah. Humbug. I'm in a lousy mood. Back to work.

[Lee Flier]

Total, 1000% agreement with every word Craig said. The whole system makes me sick. And I definitely would've voted for McCain too. :mad:

[strat0124]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Total, 1000% agreement with every word Craig said. The whole system makes me sick. And I definitely would've voted for McCain too. :mad: [/b][/quote]A McCain/Clark ticket would be unbeatable. They'd have to steal the election to stop them....or worse.

[Super 8]

Dammit... I'm pissed about this. I would have voted for McCain too. I thought for sure he was going to win the primary. He seemed like such an obvious choice. After Craig chiming in, I don't know who to believe about anything anymore. My faith has been knocked down a bit. I have always felt that most people are good and will do the right thing, if given the choice. Now, I am questioning that... Maybe I should knock off a bank... :confused:

[SFOracle]

The situation in Florida was bound to be contentious either way it went. The margin of victory in Florida was less than the margin of error. Any number of recounts could and would have yeilded results ranging from a landslid for Gore to a landslide for Bush. There were also serious irregularities: people were prevented from voting, various different interpretations of poorly marked ballots were used, both sides worked feverishly to invalidate ballots that would have favored the other side. The Florida Supreme Court ruled incorrectly (by law) against Bush twice, and the US Supreme Court ruled incorrectly (and finally) against Gore. I think it is accurate to say that if all the votes were counted using the most liberal or inclusive interpretation of voter intent, Gore probably would have won Florida and election. I think there have been at least 2 independent counts of the ballots since the election and in both cases, Gore would have won it all votes were counted. Even though I think that Bush is probably the worst leader this country has had since Nixon, I do not contend that he stole the election. Democrates need to get over it. However, when you put the Florida results in the context of recent other GOP actions (Texas redistricting, California Recall) to tip the electoral scales in their favor through less than democratic means, you begin to understand democratic fears of a vast republican power grab. Don.

[Anderton]

<> "All power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." Most people have no real power and haven't been corrupted by it, so yeah, most people are pretty good .