9 individual contacts per key, any clones do this?

[toad]

Real hammonds are the easiest action and sensitivity. If there isn't any clones that feature this then I'll have to start building a componet single manual hammond from parts off of e-bay.I'm not the worlds best organist so I need all the help I can get.

[kanker.]

http://hammondorganco.com/B3.htm

 

http://hammondorganco.com/portableB3.htm

 

 

[ABECK]

A mere $27,000. !!!

[mate stubb]

Not sure what you are proposing. Are you saying that you are considering building a set of keyboards with the 9 contact stack under each key?

 

You could start with a set of hammond manuals to get this, but then what do you hook it to?

 

Unless you are going to engineer a sound engine that responds individually to each contact, they won't have any function.

[mate stubb]

And oh yeah, the keyboard assembly will end up weighing 80 to 90 lbs when done.

[burningbusch]

Get an M3 for a few hundred bucks, rip out everything non-essential, add dollies and call it a day.

 

Busch.

[toad]

Bummer I was afraid of that! Well now I have to put my mind on making myself a componet hammond from parts. Has anyone here ever done that before? I've got an old complete upper manual from a model B, maybe mount a tone generator in a leftover carpeted keyboard case, and another case with the upper keys and just plug'em together? Anyway thanks for the fast response.

[MikeT156]

If you're not the world's greatest organist, all the key contacts in the world won't make you a better player. I know that from personal experience!

 

I would be hard pressed to believe you couldn't find a clonewheel with really good action that you can play. "Some sacrifices have to be made". Like avoiding an organ that costs $27,000!

 

Try to play an Hammond XK-3 clonewheel. If you don't like the action on that, I don't know what else you can do to find a playable action in a clonewheel.

 

 

Mike T.

[JMcS]

Bummer I was afraid of that! Well now I have to put my mind on making myself a componet hammond from parts. Has anyone here ever done that before? I've got an old complete upper manual from a model B, maybe mount a tone generator in a leftover carpeted keyboard case, and another case with the upper keys and just plug'em together? Anyway thanks for the fast response.

 

You might first spend a fair amount of time learning about all the various models and versions of Hammonds from over the years. You certainly can build a Hammond from collected parts as long as they are the right parts. Also, make sure you have the time and patience to do it. Otherwise in a few years you will be offering the forum's members a good deal on an assortment of parts (some of which may need to be replaced with the correct ones) that when assembled properly will resemble a Hammond.

 

For example, what may look like a terrific deal on a set of manuals on ebay may be someone's plan to unload a set of gooey foam eaten keyboards to help fund their planned purchase of an XK-3c.

 

The XK-3 and '3c have the same keybed as the New B3 minus the 9 contact circuitry.

[dttmc]

Not exactly what you're looking for, but Genuine Soundware VB3 (a software organ model) attempts to simulate individual key contacts by using MIDI note velocity to control the time it takes for all nine contacts to close. From their website:

 

"The original american electromagnetic organ has, underneath each single key, 9 mechanical contacts, one for each drawbar. When a key is depressed these contacts are closed sequentially in a very short time interval, near contemporarily. In most cases you won't notice any particular effect due to this kind of mechanics, but some great organists take advantage of this feature in order to create some soft nuances during their playing. Unfortunately there's no way to let the computer know exactly how deep a key has been depressed, since the only message that a MIDI keyboard can send is that of note ON or OFF (leaving apart velocity and aftertouch features which, in this example, are unused). Thus, the simulation happens almost randomly. In VB3 version 1.2 the 9 Key Contacts simulation is always active. From the Preset Options Menu you can set the maximum time between the first and the last contact to be closed. The range is from 1 to 39 milliseconds. The effective time is calculated according to the MIDI velocity: the harder you hit a note, the shorter is the time required to close all 9 contacts. For softer keystrokes you'll have slower times beween contacts. And if you have ever played one of those beautiful vintage console organs, you do know what we're talking about, and you'll notice a great similarity between the real thing and this simulation."

 

[mate stubb]

Bummer I was afraid of that! Well now I have to put my mind on making myself a componet hammond from parts. Has anyone here ever done that before? I've got an old complete upper manual from a model B, maybe mount a tone generator in a leftover carpeted keyboard case, and another case with the upper keys and just plug'em together? Anyway thanks for the fast response.

 

Yes, I have done that several times. This pic shows a B-2 in a custom 3 tier case with Hohner pianet built in, and has the generator and preamp in a box under the legs:

 

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/ribbon2.jpg

 

This page shows my modular B-3 which comes apart in several pieces, and which was designed to be as lightweight as possible so that one person could move it.

 

The experiment failed - still too heavy.

 

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/gallery5.htm

 

Finally, there is my current thread on this forum showing my current project, which is a midi controller from hammond parts driving a software organ. This approach is finally going to be practical, I think.

 

Single contact under each key, but the VB3 software I am doing simulates the multiple contact key click darn well.

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2041620/1

[TJ Cornish]

 

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/ribbon2.jpg

 

 

OK, so what is that guy doing with his hands?

 

update after looking at your page: What were YOU doing with your hands?

[JMcS]

It takes 2 hands to handle a whopper

[mate stubb]

 

OK, so what is that guy doing with his hands?

 

update after looking at your page: What were YOU doing with your hands?

 

Fondling a Moog ribbon controller plugged into the EML 101, and doing my best Emo impersonation.

[dazzjazz]

One look at the wiring harness inside a B3 will certainly put you off. 61 keys x 2 manuals x 9 contacts = spaghetti junction!

 

It's great you're reading up on the inner workings, but you'd be better off spending your time doing all the usual routines to improve your musicianship.

 

Darren

[toad]

So when are you taking orders? I'll need the more economical "SingleStubb" single manual version instead of the flagship "DoubleStubb". Man that is just great!

[burningbusch]

Not exactly what you're looking for, but Genuine Soundware VB3 (a software organ model) attempts to simulate individual key contacts by using MIDI note velocity to control the time it takes for all nine contacts to close. From their website:

 

"The original american electromagnetic organ has, underneath each single key, 9 mechanical contacts, one for each drawbar. When a key is depressed these contacts are closed sequentially in a very short time interval, near contemporarily. In most cases you won't notice any particular effect due to this kind of mechanics, but some great organists take advantage of this feature in order to create some soft nuances during their playing. Unfortunately there's no way to let the computer know exactly how deep a key has been depressed, since the only message that a MIDI keyboard can send is that of note ON or OFF (leaving apart velocity and aftertouch features which, in this example, are unused). Thus, the simulation happens almost randomly. In VB3 version 1.2 the 9 Key Contacts simulation is always active. From the Preset Options Menu you can set the maximum time between the first and the last contact to be closed. The range is from 1 to 39 milliseconds. The effective time is calculated according to the MIDI velocity: the harder you hit a note, the shorter is the time required to close all 9 contacts. For softer keystrokes you'll have slower times beween contacts. And if you have ever played one of those beautiful vintage console organs, you do know what we're talking about, and you'll notice a great similarity between the real thing and this simulation."

 

For the life of me I can't get this to work. The only thing I see in the Preset Menu is Key Click Delay and even when set to 39 ms, I heard the drawbars as a single sound.

 

Does this work for other people?

 

Busch.

[toad]

Yeah but M3's don't use 9 contacts either! When I barley push down on the keys on my C-2 I get the 1st high tone 2nd mid and then all the way down all you get the rest of the registration of the drawbars. M3's just have two per key.

[Joe Muscara]

Go to http://www.keyboardmag.tv/, click on Booker T Jones, and watch Fortner explain to him why Booker has never been happy with a clone in the clip titled "The B3" at about the 3:30 minute point on.

 

(It was a trip to watch Fortner tell Booker all about how B3s work, as long as Booker has been playing!)

[mate stubb]

 

For the life of me I can't get this to work. The only thing I see in the Preset Menu is Key Click Delay and even when set to 39 ms, I heard the drawbars as a single sound.

 

Does this work for other people?

 

I don't think 39 ms is long enough to hear individual pitches come in. I would guess several hundred ms would be necessary. What the delay does serve is to smear the keyclick attack sound out a bit which sounds more natural to me.

[JMcS]

Yeah but M3's don't use 9 contacts either! When I barley push down on the keys on my C-2 I get the 1st high tone 2nd mid and then all the way down all you get the rest of the registration of the drawbars. M3's just have two per key.

 

Yes they do. Most of the contacts on most of the keys make contact at the same point in the key travel so you won't hear the separate tones. You will hear different tones in different orders on different keys. The design did intend for all contacts on each key to touch simultaneously so there shouldn't be too much variation in travel to contact.

 

Hence my suggestion that you learn more before trying to build one.

[toad]

Anyway I know I won't be using too many parts from M3's, I don't like the destinct spinet sound that they produced. Hopfully I'll be able to get a lot of info from you all and I'll be greatful as well!

[Musicale]

Fortner ??

 

It would be nice to see a interview with someone who had a clue.

 

Regards

[JeffLearman]

Yeah but M3's don't use 9 contacts either! When I barley push down on the keys on my C-2 I get the 1st high tone 2nd mid and then all the way down all you get the rest of the registration of the drawbars. M3's just have two per key.

All Hammond tonewheel organs have a separate contact per drawbar, for each key. That's how they work. They didn't put all those contacts on there for fun, they did it out of necessity. IIRC, an M3 has 9 drawbars.

[JeffLearman]

Anyway I know I won't be using too many parts from M3's, I don't like the destinct spinet sound that they produced. Hopfully I'll be able to get a lot of info from you all and I'll be greatful as well!

The main differences on the M3 are the shorter keyboard manual and lack of "foldback".

 

Foldback is a workaround for a limitation. As you walk up the keyboard, eventually you hit a key where the highest tonewheel isn't high enough to play the 1" drawbar for that note. On an M3, it just drops out. On a B3, it drops down to add to the signal on the tonewheel for the 2" drawbar for that note (one octave lower). This goes on for the other higher drawbars as you keep walking up. The same thing happens on the bottom end too, so the bottom is fatter and the top screams a bit more.

 

The amps are different too, but you can hotten up the amp on the M3 with a scredriver. If you overdo it, you'll burn up tubes faster, IIRC.

[JeffLearman]

The main thing the 9 contacts causes is different keyclick. The tone of the keyclick varies nicely as you play, which is a big difference from the keyclick imiatation on most clones. I find the static keyclick of most clones to be annoying when turned up as loud as I'd like to hear when playing the real thing.

 

I'll have to check out the VB3. I know I played a pre-release version of it, after which I pointed Guido to this forum, where I knew he'd get lots of helpful feedback from some very serious players. But I confess I haven't used it since then. Guido rocks!

[Joe Muscara]

Fortner ??

 

It would be nice to see a interview with someone who had a clue.

 

Regards

What???

[Musicale]

Exactly,

 

Booker is only into the music. Maybe it's me but they just didn't seem to connect or be engaged, or interested in each other. The explanation about 9 contacts on each key and it's relationship to a drawbars just didn't seem interesting. Booker did a nice job showing his style and how to play some of his biggest hit's as well as with his teachers lessons. But seemed disinterested in the questions this guy (who admittedly I am unfamiliar with) try to explain how a B3 works.

 

Only my impression, but thanks for the bookmark !

 

Regards

[Jim Alfredson]

This thread just begs the question: "Why?"

 

Either get a clone or if you don't think they sound as good, then man up and haul a tonewheel organ around. I did so for 10 years. Making a single-manual organ from an M3 or any other tonewheel is not going to save you much in weight and really won't sound much better than the XK3c.

[JeffLearman]

This thread just begs the question: "Why?"

 

Either get a clone or if you don't think they sound as good, then man up and haul a tonewheel organ around. I did so for 10 years. Making a single-manual organ from an M3 or any other tonewheel is not going to save you much in weight and really won't sound much better than the XK3c.

Just in case you doubt B3-er's authority here, search YouTube for Organissimo.

 

Something that's oft been repeated on these forums: a real Leslie matters more than a real Hammond.

 

I'll admit I am waiting to hear what I think is an authentic sounding keyclick in a clone. But I have a few serious contenders I need to try first, not least of which is the XK3c.