Chunk Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I am looking for any info, pro or con, on the effects of open tuning on guitar necks. Thanks all chucks children are out there playing his licks *Bob Seger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 How far "off" from normal are you talking about? Also...are you tuning some strings down or up to achieve the open tunings? A guitar with a stable neck/truss will easily handle a small change. If you plan on leaving it in that open tuning indefinitely...you then might want to readjust your truss rod, action and intonation...otherwise, no need to, for a song or two and then back again to normal tuning. Plus...listen to the guitar. If you go loose to an open tuning, and the guitar is buzzing like madthen obviously its having a big enough effect on the neck. You can either adjust the rod/action/intonation to equalize thingsor, try a different tuningor try it on a different guitar. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I've been doing it since the 1960s with typical and less typical (like Joni Mitchells custom tunings) and not had any problems with any of the many guitars that I have owned. I do recommend that 12 string owners tune down a hole step. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I do recommend that 12 string owners tune down a hole step. Is that to remove some of that typical 12-string "brittleness"...and give it a warmer/fuller sound...? miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunk Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 mainly open e tuning all chucks children are out there playing his licks *Bob Seger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Open-E tuning will be no problem at all for your guitar's neck; all you might have to do would be to adjust the truss-rod to compensate for the greater pull of the tighter strings, and only by a little, probably just tightening the truss-rod nut by about an eighth of a turn, or maybe a quarter (varies from one guitar to another). Although, if this is for slide playing, a little added relief might be a good thing, in which case you might just leave it alone... If you're going to keep the guitar in that tuning all the time, to get a more balanced, "normal" feel between all the strings, you might consider going to slightly lighter gauges for the three strings that are tuned up in pitch; whatever brand and set of strings you use, look to the gauges on the next lighter set of strings of that brand and type to get an idea of about what would be a good gauge to switch to for those three individual strings. (Meaning, for Open-E, you would change the 5th, 4th, and 3rd strings to a slightly lighter gauge, and keep using the gauges you already were for the 1st, 2nd, and 6th.) If so, it's also good to recheck and adjust the intonation, as well, and if your pickups have adjustable polepieces for each string, you might raise the poles for the 5th and 4th strings by about a half to a full turn, and for the 3rd by about a half turn. Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunk Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Thank you everyone for your help all chucks children are out there playing his licks *Bob Seger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketRick Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Yeah just tuning up or down some for a song or 3 is ok. I've experienced no prob with it. Oh and it's a acoustic to. Hmm, tuning a 12-string down a whole step..? Hmm..new data....must compute. Money may buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRose Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Which brings up an interesting question: Does anyone know what Gibson has done to the Robot guitars to deal with the fluidity of tuning changes on the neck? I ordered a Darkfire and expect to move between standard and Eb tuning, Drop Db, Drop D and Open E slide tuning... I like the idea of a guitar that accommodate that all in one gig, but doesn't it play hell with the neck. I ask becuase I play in a band that drops a half-step to facilitate vocals (we're all very old!) and when I bring a guitar to a gig, it's usually in standard tuning. When I tune down, or tune back up after a gig, it takes a while for the neck to "settle down"... Thoughts? Nash-customized Gibson Les Paul, Godin Progression Plus Quilter MicroPro Mach 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 When I tune down, or tune back up after a gig, it takes a while for the neck to "settle down"... Thoughts? Get a Hagstrom! :grin: Just teasing guys...don't anyone take it as a "calling out". But honestly, with the unique H-truss rod approach of all the Hagstrom necks...I've noticed very little or none, changes in the neckeven when switching from say 10's to 11's and back again...or drop tuning, etc. I too am curious if anyone's tired out the Robot guitars and how well they do stand up...? My solution was always to just transpose songs, but not so much to change tuning when we needed to accommodate singers. And then there was always the option of bringing a few guitars to the gig, each one set up perfectly for the task at hand. Rob, when will you be getting the Dark Fire...? I'm less curious about its neck stability..and more curious about how well it actually tunes itself, as I tend to get real picky even with things being out a 10th or two at times! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duff beer Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I ask becuase I play in a band that drops a half-step to facilitate vocals (we're all very old!) and when I bring a guitar to a gig, it's usually in standard tuning. When I tune down, or tune back up after a gig, it takes a while for the neck to "settle down"... Thoughts? There is a very simple solution to that problem...buy another guitar to use when you play with The Old Drop Tuners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketRick Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Don't you think Gibson solved that problem when they designed it? I bet that neck is very very strong and won't even notice it. Money may buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRose Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Rob, when will you be getting the Dark Fire...? I'm less curious about its neck stability..and more curious about how well it actually tunes itself, as I tend to get real picky even with things being out a 10th or two at times! I hope to get it in the next week or so. I'll let everyone know how it does. It has the second generation of the robot guitar technology and the vids I've seen has the tuning happen almost instantly, with pretty subtle tuning movements. My band can go from "Tush" (open G slide tuning - at least how I hope to play it -- we have another guitar player who'll do the normal stuff) to "At Last" with persnickety jazz chord voicings in standard tuning. I hope to move quickly between them and the jazzier stuff demands the guitar be *spot on* in tune. Nash-customized Gibson Les Paul, Godin Progression Plus Quilter MicroPro Mach 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I can already do that with my Variax 600 and POD XT Live. And, I can go from a hot open tuned Les Paul/Marshall Billy Gibbons tone to a cool Super 400 thru a Roland Jazz Chorus amp, and all with one tap of one foot switch. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I can already do that with my Variax 600 and POD XT Live. Hmmmmm...but isn't that more like pitch correction instead of doing an actual alternate tuning? What I mean is...timber - envelope attack/decay - will still be of the actual tuning that your guitar is in...only the pitch changes thanks to the Variax or Pod. It might not be noticeable going say...a semi up/down...but I would think any more dramatic than that, and it's going to feel a bit "off" if you compared it to the actual same tuning on the guitar. Also...if it's a dramatic pitch shift...do you notice any "warble" when playing faster note changes or sliding/bending...? miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Is that to remove some of that typical 12-string "brittleness"...and give it a warmer/fuller sound...? No,you can even capo up to preserve the same chord voicings, if you want to do so. It is purely a neck tension thing. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketRick Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 miro - I stink your talking about minutia. Audiences mostly don't know a 'd' from an 'f' and don't hear subtle stuff we might consider. IOW, in the eye of the beholder sort of thing. Money may buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Yeah...but when I'm playing the guitar, I'm not worried about the audience noticing the tuning or timber issues if I'm already noticing them myslef! :grin: I am the primary beholder. If I can hear it...it's not minutia to me. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Is that to remove some of that typical 12-string "brittleness"...and give it a warmer/fuller sound...? No,you can even capo up to preserve the same chord voicings, if you want to do so. It is purely a neck tension thing. Oh.... I just assume that most decent 12-strings guitars are designed with the 12-string tension in mind. I have a Seagull 12-string that's been strung up and hanging for over a year now...and it's holding tune quite well...I am actually surprised at how well! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Oh.... I just assume that most decent 12-strings guitars are designed with the 12-string tension in mind. I have a Seagull 12-string that's been strung up and hanging for over a year now...and it's holding tune quite well...I am actually surprised at how well! Watch the face below the bridge carefully. A very good friend lost a 6 and a 12 string Seagull to over-rotation doing exactly what you have done... tune them up to pitch and hang them from a wall. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 You're saying that the constant tension will pull the body up off the internal bracing (I had that happen on an nylon string awhile back)...? Hmmmm... I can lossen it a step just to be safe. Though I would think hanging them would help counter the tension...which is what all the propnents of hanging guitars always say...though I know with an acoustic, there isn't as much dody weight pulling down as there is with electric guitars. Yeah, I could see that a 12-string might need a bit more care. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The only position that I have about guitar hangers I got from my luthier, whom I trust implicitly and who knows a whole lot more about guitar construction than I. He saw all the hangers in my studio and said, "I hope you're not using those..." So from that point on I only used them during sessions... which came in pretty handy anyway. I have a bunch of those old $42 tube guitar stands from the 70s... the body sits in the forks, the neck is supported in a U, and the body is almost vertical. That is what I used when the guitar is out of its case. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Yeah...but I find stands to be more of a hazard than a wall hanging. Having them off the floor, out of the cases so they can breathe and always ready to pick-up-n-playworks for me. I've heard other luthiers give the opposite view...that hanging a guitar helps offset the constant pull of the strings. But the real proof of pudding comes from always seeing guitars (many very high-priced, vintage guitars) hanging in every music store I've ever walked into. And heck...many of the more costly guitars probably hang there for a few years or more before being purchased.and Ive never yet heard of anyone commenting about ruined necks from being hung so, Im not worried about hanging guitars. Butyou gotta go with what feels comfortable to you. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRose Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I can already do that with my Variax 600 and POD XT Live. Yeah... I have a custom Variax (variax guts put in a Warmoth custom guitar) and used to play it through a Line 6 Vetta II -- and use a PodXt Live in the Studio as well as Guitar Rig -- very flexible. Although I found that alternate tunings started to "warble" if you played too quickly and the effect got worse the further the string was from standard, and worse still when the guitar signal was either an acoustic tone, or distorted. It's totally fine for chord work and slower lead playing in my experience. I've always been pleasantly shocked how "organic" the Variax technology feels, i.e. no sense of the electronics at work, just pretty good, usable tone. Although with their virtual alternate tunings, I got a glimpse of the limitations of the system. To be fair however, I was playing this rig in a rock fusion band that had fast and challenging parts. In my goofy party rock band, this approach would probably be perfect, but I'm looking forward to the Dark Fire nonetheless! Nash-customized Gibson Les Paul, Godin Progression Plus Quilter MicroPro Mach 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ahhh yes. Thanks Rob...that's exactly what I was wondering...if it "warbled". I know even some of the more sophisticate dpitch-correction devices can be overwhelemed with certin types of content. And again...pitch correction/re-tuning is not able to account for correct timber, so if yougo out a bit too far, even if it doesn't warble, it starts to sound a bit unnatural, though it might not be noticed in a busy mix. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeeps Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Is info in this thread ,let me clear my eyes ..Is saying hanging guitars by the neck is not happening -or desirable or can cause issues.? Half mine are hanging and the other half standing on stands That p bass in the avatars been hanging for a decade -except playing time .Just a lil tweak with a truss wrench when needed ,fine.. Does it matter if its acoustics or electrics? "warm smell of colitas,rising up through the air" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Is info in this thread ,let me clear my eyes ..Is saying hanging guitars by the neck is not happening -or desirable or can cause issues.? Half mine are hanging and the other half standing on stands ... No, were not saying that. My luthier said it. I follow his advice. I have (well, had)hangers in the studio. I stopped leaving guitars on the hangers all the time, because of what he said. Which worked out, because then there were hangers for clients to use, and there were no stands sitting around the floor. Has to be safer for the guitars. MY guitars at home sit on the stands all the time. (shrug...) I do just want to point out that just because something hasn't happened, that does not mean that it won't. My buddy, also a guitar player, used to stick the very tip of his middle finger in the spinning fan of cars that he would be working on. No harm, something that I've seen several mechanics do. One day he lost his finger up to the first joint, ripped it right out, pulled the nerves out from as far down in as his palm, and tossed the ripped off finger part onto the manifold, where it cooked like a hot dog while they took him to the hospital. People do stuff all the time that is questionable, and the excuse is that they do it all the time... My personal feeling is that if you are comfortable hanging your axes, then you should do it. "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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