Giant Steps by Tommy Flanagan

[Dave Ferris]

As for Flanagan's solo on the original take of Giant Steps, I daresay it sucked. I would bet he was caught off guard and he must have loathed the fact that it was released.

 

Z

 

You have to remember this was 1959-60 not today.

Back then cats didn't have all the resources available that players in the last 30 years have had. Most guys with the exception of a few, all played by ear and the reading/interpretation skills weren't any thing like today . I can imagine when Trane put those changes in front of TF it would be like reading Lighetti to those guys back then. That was a whole new language back in those days, those kind of chord progressions had never been seen.

 

Today, you can hear talented High School Stage band players tear up Giant Steps...of course a lot of their solo vocabulary will probably consist of part of Trane's transcribed solo.

 

I think considering the time of the recording in history, still the formative years of Modern Jazz, Tommy did quite well. Maybe someone like Hank Jones, Kenny Drew or Herbie (he would have been around 19 then) might have been a little more fluent, but who knows for sure. I would have loved to have heard what Bill would have come up with back then.

 

I also thought it would have been interesting to hear McCoy on the original Giant Steps even though he was still in his early developmental stage. He joined the band in 1960 so he wasn't that far removed ability wise. Those early Impulse sides are still some of my favorite by him.

[zephonic]

Hi Dave,

I understand all that, my point being that I bet Flanagan felt it sucked as well and it must have pissed him off. I agree that at the time nobody could have played that unprepared. Least of all me!

 

[Legatoboy]

Dave,

 

"I dig Dexter too, saw him many times at Concerts by the Sea and the Lighthouse with George Cables.

 

Speaking of Warne....again...I just posted this on the Piano World Forum the other day:"

 

I've learned alot about Warne because he played with Sal Mosca regularly, the guy I work with studied with Sal for many many years. Friends actually and Sal used Larry's rhythm section in the last few years to record with before he passed recently (sadly). So I'm really involved with the remnants of Warne's NY scene when he lived and gigged here so to speak from a student's perspective. That involved Warne, Lenny, Sal ,Lee and Peter Ind(bass) prominently.

 

Thanks for Warne's story. I didn't know that, I'll have to bring that up at my next session. Wow!

 

Enjoy the holidays!

 

 

[Jazz+]

Maybe Lennie Tristano would have a done a good job on it in 1960.

[kanker.]

 

You have to remember this was 1959-60 not today.

Back then cats didn't have all the resources available that players in the last 30 years have had. Most guys with the exception of a few, all played by ear and the reading/interpretation skills weren't any thing like today . I can imagine when Trane put those changes in front of TF it would be like reading Lighetti to those guys back then. That was a whole new language back in those days, those kind of chord progressions had never been seen.

Have You Met Miss Jones (1937)

 

I know I'm being a little difficult here, but the progression was over 20 years old in popular music. What's really at play is the Trane had been practicing that stuff for months and months. He probably would have sounded similarly questionable had someone thrown that chart up in front of him.

[Jazz+]

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_You_Met_Miss_Jones%3F

 

"Have You Met Miss Jones?" is a popular song.

 

The music was written by Richard Rodgers, the lyrics by Lorenz Hart. The song was written for the musical comedy I'd Rather Be Right and was published in 1937.

 

It has been speculated that the cycle of major third root movement in the song's bridge was an inspiration for jazz musician John Coltrane, who developed a pattern of chord substitutions known as the "Coltrane changes" based on these chords. "Have You Met Miss Jones?" is cited as the only jazz standard incorporating this cycle of chords."

 

[Jazz+]

I have wondered if the bridge on "Have You Met Miss Jones?" was originally published with exactly the same chord changes we all know for it today?

[SK]

I have wondered if the bridge on "Have You Met Miss Jones?" was originally published with exactly the same chord changes we all know for it today?

I'm sure it's always been the same chord progression, Jazz+. I've never heard another bridge on it. I even heard a recording of a really old radio vocal version of it as a ballad, and the male crooner (somebody like Fred Astaire) sang the same bridge melody over the same chords, which sounded kind of eerie at that tempo.

 

Flanagan's sparse solo on Giant Steps always bothered him, which is probably why he recorded it again later. Also remember, Flanagan originally approached that song as he always did when he was Ella's accompanist, initially as a "tune" with form and melody; but for Coltrane, it's was more like a conceptual etude based on 3rds.

 

There's another album that really fascinated me: a Coltrane release with Cecil Taylor and trumpter Kenny Durham. I don't recall the name of the record, but it was supposed to be Cecil's date, and the record company forced him to release it under Coltrane's better known name, and forced Cecil to play standard tunes he had no desire to record... on what was supposed to have been his session!

 

Then Kenney Durham walked into the session with an attitude and said, "So is this going to be the new stuff, or the the real thing?"

 

The result was Kenny Durham played with the most fire (because he was angry), Coltrane was Coltrane, and Cecil Taylor would comp sparingly and then come in with totally weird solos. They did old standards like "Like Someone In Love", and you could feel the tension between the players on the songs. It was musically all over the place, some free moments, some traditional. The more out Cecil played, the more fiery traditional Durham played.

 

I used to have that record. Anybody heard it?

 

 

 

[cnegrad]

Happy Holidays Y'all,

 

1. Does anyone have a link to the Kikoski recording? I'd love to buy it.

 

2. Does anyone have a link to the 'better' Flanagan version?

 

3. That Francisco Morales guy is killing!

 

Thanks!

[zephonic]

Francisco is the reason I got back into Jazz. I used to do pop productions and started getting tired and uninspired in the late 90's. Francisco moved to Holland in '99 (he's from Venezuela) and he gave me an epiphany. I decided to go back and do some serious woodshedding. I am forever in his debt.

 

[cnegrad]

Re Fransisco: Hmmmmm.... I don't see any solo releases on his website. Do you know of any, zephonic?

[zephonic]

He has no official releases as of yet, but I have heard his original material and it's incredible. I'm his #1 fan, and I am nobody's fan. Major coincidence: he just sent me a new version of Giant Steps, check it out, it's all that and the kitchen sink!

 

 

[Jazz+]

There's another album that really fascinated me: a Coltrane release with Cecil Taylor and trumpter Kenny Durham. I don't recall the name of the record, but it was supposed to be Cecil's date, and the record company forced him to release it under Coltrane's better known name, and forced Cecil to play standard tunes he had no desire to record... on what was supposed to have been his session!

 

Then Kenney Durham walked into the session with an attitude and said, "So is this going to be the new stuff, or the the real thing?"

 

The result was Kenny Durham played with the most fire (because he was angry), Coltrane was Coltrane, and Cecil Taylor would comp sparingly and then come in with totally weird solos. They did old standards like "Like Someone In Love", and you could feel the tension between the players on the songs. It was musically all over the place, some free moments, some traditional. The more out Cecil played, the more fiery traditional Durham played.

 

I used to have that record. Anybody heard it?

 

 

 

I have heard it but now for many years. I thought it was my favorite Cecil Taylor album, time to look it up again.

 

You can hear part of Cecil's solo on "Just Friends" and on "Like Soemone In Love" Dorham playing inside while Cecil plays disonantly. I can imagine Dorham did not like it.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Coltrane-Time-John/dp/B000005HDQ

 

"John Coltrane: Coltrane Time

(Blue Note, 1958)

This album is fascinating on a variety of levels. Not only is it the only recorded pairing of Dorham with John Coltrane, it also puts Dorham together with pianist Cecil Taylor, whose dissonant comping offers a stark contrast to Dorham's bebop style. Also appearing on the album are Chuck Israels on bass and Louis Hayes on drums. Compare Dorham's solo on "Like Someone In Love" with the earlier Messengers recording "

[kanker.]

Coltrane Time on iTunes - CLONK HERE

[Phil W]

Merry Christmas guys - it's almost Christmas here in Pasadena.

 

I just heard of Duke Ellington's tune - Blue Rose that has a similar progression too - I'm tryin gto find a copy to listen to. My friend has a chart.

[linwood]

GS w/Mr Sax T

 

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/Mr_T_GSteps.mp3

 

[Legatoboy]

Jazz+,

 

Maybe Lennie Tristano would have a done a good job on it in 1960.

 

Maybe, who knows!

 

I think in 1960 Lennie was still in very good shape! As a general rule I think Coltrane (and crew) were considered highly by Tristano and crew including Wayne, Lee (Konitz) and Ind I would venture to guess. There really is an openess in that particular vision as far as I can see and it is due alot of credit. It's just the way that visions doors shut down that actually may be of more interest. Really valuable advice in those lessons for music on a universal level even the door closings. Steve Vai studied with Lennie, he was into some high powered rock guitar at one phase in terms of energy!)

 

But the overblown (sax sound) sheets of sound thing with Coltrane, I can tell you that when reduced in my mind from what I can gather from that group's perspective, equates to in translation in my mind - the 'line' was compromised by 'effect', regardless of how suductive it may have been! So there is the closing of the doors that I think people get turned off too in the tristano lexicon beside the way some of the music sounds. The thing people miss is how supportative the vision is up to a point of closure. That's actually interesting. So you try to find the wisdom or truth about that or the non-truth about it (even for you)!

lb