Giant Steps by Tommy Flanagan

[playsthe88s]

I was fortunate enough to have had a few lessons with Ellis Larkins, whom I've always considered one of the greatest cocktail pianists (meaning I would have to go have a very strong cocktail after hearing him play!). As a jazz accompanist there was no better.

 

The whole "cocktail" thing is stupid.

[Mexico Charlie]

Having tried to play Cy Walter, I think the whole point of denigrating "cocktail" piano playing is to deny its viability so that one doesn't have to try to play it.

[Mexico Charlie]

And it would have done Coltrane good to have played with that guy.

... why?

 

He might have played something that regular people would dig.

 

Sorry, but Coltrane has never impressed me. He loved to honk, and for some reason, "educators" have devised elaborate justifications in order to toot their own horns.

 

Become a Coltrane "expert" and you can get a job in most music schools.

[SK]

[zephonic]

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

And it would have done Coltrane good to have played with that guy.

... why?

 

He might have played something that regular people would dig.

 

Sorry, but Coltrane has never impressed me. He loved to honk, and for some reason, "educators" have devised elaborate justifications in order to toot their own horns.

 

Become a Coltrane "expert" and you can get a job in most music schools.

 

It's true, that guy sucked.

[Floyd Tatum]

 

That guy burns up real good!

 

[Mexico Charlie]

I think you all are making my point.

 

I don't expect Coltrane apologists to agree with me.

[zephonic]

Dude, tell us you're kidding? right? He may not ooze along as pleasantly as Stan Getz, but he revolutionized harmonic thinking and took Jazz to a whole new level.

 

[Mexico Charlie]

Yeah, that's what they say.

 

Doesn't change the fact that he's hard for a lot of people to listen to and his playing screams arrogance.

 

Just like George Shearing.

 

Dude, it's OK to dislike Coltrane.

[zephonic]

It's ok to dislike Trane, sure. To say his playing is arrogant or, worse, like George Shearing...that's ok, too, I guess: if you insist on torpedo-ing your credibility around here. A word of caution: others may not be as sympathetic :-) Don't let Dave Horne catch you uttering muck like that.

[Mexico Charlie]

If the price to get into your club is to accede to your musical taste, I don't see where getting along with you will do me any good.

 

The credibility associated with making a point rests with the point itself. Whether you agree doesn't matter.

 

Perhaps others who have been previously intimidated against advancing an opinion contrary to mainstream thought will speak up.

 

[SK]

Yeah, all you Coltrane haters out there, speak up! Let's get a riot started...

 

Why the anger, Charlie? BTW, you're not making a point: you're just giving an opinion.

 

I think you all are making my point.

Not surprising you might think that, especially since you think you're going to have a debate.

 

Very interesting how George Shearing got in here. I also think you're confusing passion with arrogance.

 

I'll agree with this - the academicizing of a musician's life's work can sometimes distort it. But a musician can't be blamed in any way for the academic school of thought he inspired after his death.

 

It's fine to dislike him or that you don't get anything out of his music; that's really nobody else's concern. But putting him down doesn't do any good, and that's not being an "apologist" - nobody apologizes for Coltrane. He was the deepest of players and an acquired taste, not easy to grasp on preliminary listenings. You don't have to like or understand something, but you should probably reserve some respect for the unknown. The universal respect for Coltrane is there for a reason.

 

That's for anyone who doubts the depth of that music, not just you. And that's all I'll say.

[Floyd Tatum]

Yeah, that's what they say.

 

Doesn't change the fact that he's hard for a lot of people to listen to and his playing screams arrogance.

 

Just like George Shearing.

 

Dude, it's OK to dislike Coltrane.

 

Are you talking about early, middle, or late JC? It sounds like your dislike might be for later 'Trane, I don't know. Perhaps you might prefer early Coltrane, when he was playing more standards, his playing was more melodic, although it still had a lot of the fire and depth we always associate with him. Like, the album Blue Train - that is one of my favorites.

 

Be a player, not a hater.

[Mexico Charlie]

I do appreciate the many thoughtful comments concerning my opinion of John Coltrane's playing. However some might misunderstand what the term "apologist" means. It has nothing to do with what is commonly referred to as "apologizing," i. e. admitting a mistake.

 

 

Rather, it describes a person who marshalls arguments in defense of a proposition.

 

a⋅pol⋅o⋅gist   /əˈpɒlədʒɪst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-pol-uh-jist] Show IPA Pronunciation

 

noun 1. a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

 

 

2. Ecclesiastical. a. Also, a⋅pol⋅o⋅gete  /əˈpɒləˌdʒit/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-pol-uh-jeet] Show IPA Pronunciation . a person skilled in apologetics.

b. one of the authors of the early Christian apologies in defense of the faith.

 

 

[zephonic]

I thought Red Garland was the one often critically dismissed as a cocktail pianist. I did not know that they also did that with Jamal, Flanagan, and Evans?

Yep, they did.

 

I think there's a general misconception that piano trio music is just for background, especially when playing any recognizable songs with dense voicings.

 

I know, Red Garland is still one of my marquee guys, his time is dead accurate and I love the way he grooves so effortlessly and elegantly.

 

As for Flanagan's solo on the original take of Giant Steps, I daresay it sucked. I would bet he was caught off guard and he must have loathed the fact that it was released.

I heard him play it live some time around '90 and he absolutely tore it up. His precision and near-flawless execution are what blow me away on his work with Ella and later trio recordings.

 

For a funky good time with Flanagan, get "Saxophone Colossus" from Sonny Rollins (co-starring Max Roach who at times overshadows the leader on this record).

 

 

[SK]

I know what apologist means, Mexico Charlie, thanks.

 

zephonic, Flanagan was caught off guard on Giant Steps. Funny story: he never saw it before, Coltrane just put the sheet music in front of him and they started recording.

[Floyd Tatum]

I know what apologist means, Mexico Charlie, thanks.

 

zephonic, Flanagan was caught off guard on Giant Steps. Funny story: he never saw it before, Coltrane just put the sheet music in front of him and they started recording.

 

I seem to remember hearing or reading that Coltrane sent him the charts a week or two before the session, but that Tommy had thought it was a ballad. Can't remember where I heard that.

[SK]

I seem to remember hearing or reading that Coltrane sent him the charts a week or two before the session, but that Tommy had thought it was a ballad. Can't remember where I heard that.

Maybe so, but the 'old story' is he saw it for the first time at the session.

[Mexico Charlie]

I know what apologist means, Mexico Charlie, thanks.

 

I thought you had let this go.

 

In your earlier post you said: " ... that's not being an "apologist" - nobody apologizes for Coltrane."

 

So you can see how I would think that you were unfamiliar with the use of the word.

[kanker.]

God I love threads with dictionary definitions in them.

[Legatoboy]

my accountant did his books?

 

I had to stop myself from thinking after he told me. The accountant belongs on the sapranos. I said big "Tony" is Tommy FLANAGAN'S (muffled cry in my head) accountant?? I live out on the Island miles miles away. It was like my mind did a huge double-take... I dropped my jaw just alittle and : . Then.... I kinda fazed out into a movie or something with Tony and Tommy! Thank you universe, it was like alittle gift! Tony is SUCH a character! it was weird! strangeness! truly!

 

Brooklyn. If your from other parts of the country somehow it doesn't translate! Brooklyn ..... think Coney Island!

 

I get this way at the holidays!

[Kayvon]

Mexico Charlie, thanks for your contribution to the thread. However, to better place your comments, might you proffer your favoured jazz saxophonist & composer?

 

Are you more of a Lester Young guy? Coleman Hawkins? Or maybe Kenny Gorelick is a little easier for you to dig?

[Mexico Charlie]

I'm not trying to be difficult. It sounds like you're baiting me.

 

Or trying to insult me with the Kenny G reference.

[Legatoboy]

yeah Mexico we got ya cornered. give it up what sax Mexico!

 

 

 

 

 

[niacin]

Ok, i've missed something here. How is George Shearing's playing arrogant? Just one example would suffice.

 

I can see how you might come to that conclusion with Trane (whose playing i'm not generally fond of either (early or later, give me Art Pepper circa 1980 any day), though I wouldn't call it arrogant. Keith Jarrett is arrogant. I don't think Coltrane's ideas about his own playing or his audience suggest arrogance).

 

Anyway, please substantiate your claim about Shearing with an example. Thanks.

 

And yes we'd be curious to know which sax players you prefer. My fave is late Art Pepper.

[Kayvon]

Well I'm not so much baiting you, I'm just genuinely interested in who you prefer as a jazz saxophonist & composer if you think Coltrane's music is arrogant and you're not impressed by him.

 

If you're not into jazz then we might aswell forget the conversation.

 

Yes the Kenny G remark was an insult and a rather tired one at that but it felt like you were baiting the thread with your unsubstantiated comments.

[Legatoboy]

I like Dexter Gordon's playing, nice weird notes!

 

the guy I work with turned me on to Warne Marsh! I think when he went back home to Ca, he worked with Claire Fischer. That's like a different type of playing all together.

 

I like weird and relaxed anyway so learning about Lester was nice! Nobody I know of ripped like Bird in modern times! I took me awhile but I came to understand that point.

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

Ok, i've missed something here. How is George Shearing's playing arrogant? Just one example would suffice.

 

Yeah, Niacin, I don't get that either.

 

George Shearing's music screams arrogance? Mmm-hmm, right.

 

Here, Mr. Charlie, just take these, put this nice jacket on, and go with the nice men, there's a good fellow. Yes, the sleeves are really long, aren't they? Don't worry, they'll show you.

[Dave Ferris]

I like Dexter Gordon's playing...the guy I work with turned me on to Warne Marsh! I think when he went back home to Ca, he worked with Claire Fischer.

 

Tony-

I dig Dexter too, saw him many times at Concerts by the Sea and the Lighthouse with George Cables.

 

Speaking of Warne....again...I just posted this on the Piano World Forum the other day:

 

Speaking of Warne, I had stopped by Dontes in N. Hollywood that fateful night in Dec. of '87 after a gig. I pulled up to the club and was trying to find a spot in the lot has opposed to the street because I had my gear in the car. There was a ambulance in the lot has well has a firetruck in the street. People were all outside milling around in the parking lot.

 

I saw a drummer I knew and asked..."hey what's up"?

He said, "Warne Marsh just collapsed on stage in the middle of a solo, he's unconscious right now, they're loading him into the ambulance".

 

I remember thinking..."holy sh..t, unbelievable"!

I hung out for awhile talking to people..everyone said he looked fine, sounded great has always. All of a sudden...boom, he collapses in the middle of "Out of Nowhere".

 

The next morning on, at that time, KKGO Jazz radio, I learned he had died.

Man, I'll never forget that night!

 

He made so many records has a leader but one of my favorites is when he was a sideman on the Bill Evans LP, "Crosscurrents" on Fantasy. ('77) It's with Warne, Lee Konitz, Eddie Gomez and Eliot Zigmund. They do the Steve Swallow tune "Eiderdown", Clare's "Pensativa", (probably my favorite jazz composition of all time) Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye, Speak Low.

 

Yeah, Warne, what an original!