differential pay rates

[Phil W]

This is something I'm coming across more and more. Maybe I've reached another level or something. I seem to be in demand. I should count my blessings as you never know what's round the corner.

 

I've had a couple of calls to dep in bands where the bands are playing originals and basically play for free or a limited fee. As a dep I've been able to negotiate my own fee for rehearsals and gigs. This is all fairly new to me. Subbing in an originals band does mean a lot of work learning the tunes and no long-term investment in the band so I guess the other musicians would understand the pay differentials, or would they?

 

Is this just how it works? I guess it's a case of supply and demand and I may just have to up my rates a little given my time/gigs ratio. Obviously I'll be very discreet in dealing with the other musicians and for all I know, some of them may have negotiated their own rates higher than mine!

 

I'm not used to this, mostly I play in cover based bands where everyone gets the same fee. I'm happy enough with the situation though. How would you feel if your band hired a dep and you found out he was being paid more than you?

[1111000]

That is definitely how it works. They see it as renting you until they get a permanent bass player. They are not in the same position as a cover band--they don't get as much money, generally--and in general original music bands will have to be tighter with their money.

[moot]

As a guy who has played in several original bands I can tell you that money is rarely the objective. If the music speaks to me I play - if not, I don't.

 

The few times I have been asked to sub in a money making cover band I have set my rate high regardless of what the other musicians are making. As cited, supply and demand is the key.

 

I find it hard to fathom the idea of asking for money when the band isn't making any.

[jcadmus]

Uh, what's a "dep"?

[Phil W]

I find it hard to fathom the idea of asking for money when the band isn't making any.

 

Well I originally just turned these things down. I need the money/time/music ratio to be right. They could get someone else who is prepared to play for free or they could hire me.

 

In one case it's the band's manager who is offering to pay me and he has a long-term vested interest in the band and in the other case it's the bandleader/songwriter. If he wants a certain thing in his band and he's prepared to pay for it.

 

The alternative might be to cancel a bunch of gigs while they find a replacement who'll do it for the love of the music for just a couple of gigs.

[Phil W]

Uh, what's a "dep"?

 

Dep=sub

 

When the regular bandmember's unavailable the guy who plays as a replacement.

 

I forget which term is UK and which is US as I tend to use UK and US terms pretty interchangeably these days (to much confusion!).

[Chewbubba]

The first gig I played with the country band I'm in now, I was paid $200, and the rest of the band either got nothing or $50. Turns out it was a ploy to get me to join the band.

 

 

 

 

It worked.

[Davo-London]

I presume that dep = deputise or deputy. But what do I know?

 

Davo

[DavidMPires]

I picked up that term from Phil.

[jcadmus]

As actor Tony Todd said in the movie "The Rock" -- "mercenaries get paid."

[jeremy c]

I've been involved in various bands and gigs with "differential pay rates".

 

I am often hired by singers who do gigs at a net loss. They think it was more important to play a gig than to make money, so they hire a band for more money than the gig pays.

 

I was in a country band that didn't have a drummer or pedal steel guitarist. Those two guys (who were different guys every time) got paid more than the rest of us. I left the band when I realized that being in the band paid less than not being in the band.

 

I've been in free-lance bands where everyone negotiated a different deal with the leader. When I found out about this, I demanded (and got) the same amount of pay as the highest paid member.

 

I tried to get differential pay established in a steady band I was in. It took years to get to the pay level we were getting and a new person in the band walked in at that level. I suggested a trial period before the pay was equal, but was overruled, mostly because of the question on where the monetary difference would go.

 

The issue of PA system ownership and changes in the band personnel is a matter of differential pay. After spending years of bringing stuff, if a band wants me to bring a PA system, I need to get paid to do that.

 

I'm sure in big name bands there is a pay differential between the original members of the band and people who play with the band on stage. I know that sometimes someone is paid to leave the band. "Bought out" would be the proper term.

 

There also is a pay differential in studios. If someone can come in and play a killer part immediately, of course they deserve more, especially if having their name on the cd cover helps sell more copies.

 

You should never feel bad about being paid for what you do.

 

Sometimes I feel sorry for people whose musical careers seem to cost them more money than they make, but on the other the recording studios and the freelance players need these people to make a living, just like we need fans of music who like to spend money hearing bands live and on recordings.

 

It's an art form and all music should be free, just like housing, food, and medical care should be free.

[Chewbubba]

Some of you may have heard of WhiteHeart, a christian rock band from the 80's and 90's. One of their bass players (throughout the years) was from around here, and he left the band when he realized he was getting paid a fraction as the original members.

[SteveC]

I guess if I was asked to do a night or 2 for anoriginal band, I'd need a decent amount to cover the time it would take to learn the tunes. It's not like sitting in for a cover gig, and you probably won't play those tunes again.

 

I played a sudden fill in gig last Friday for a local cover band. Short notice, my night off, etc. I think the rate was $80. I said $100 and got it. I also believe they got their money's worth as I played quite well.

 

Sometimes you get what you pay for, too.

[EddiePlaysBass]

My main band has done most of its shows for free so far I subbed / depped (?) once for another band and got 35 euro for it. Considering that they sold all the tickets for the event and all I did was show up and play the songs, I thought it was a nice gesture (I had offered to do it for free). That one gig has now led to me joining a second cover band, which will undoubtedly not play for free. In fact I'm having a party where I want to play with both bands and will probably end up paying the members of band #2 to come and play a set.

 

Why would I do that? Because I expect this band to be a minimal rehearsal / maximum revenue endeavour. The idea is to keep a steady pace of learning new songs and start gigging around December or early next year. And get paid for it. They have the contacts for it, and can't find a bass player nearer to them. I do not know how they plan on splitting the fees but I'll argue that my 50 kilometres to and 50 kilometres from rehearsals will justify skipping every other rehearsal ... So if all goes as planned I'll be in one band where rehearsals are plenty and gig money sparse (we have 2 paid gigs coming up, one for 25 euro per person and one for 75 euro per person) and another where it's vice versa. We'll see how it works out in the end, though :grin:

[TimR]

Yep its Dep in the UK.

 

I didn't pay towards the rehearsal space and gave my time for free. My drinks were covered, and they put me up in a hotel for one night. I didn't want paying.

 

Might be worth joining the Musicians Uniion to see what the minimum rates are.

[Tenstrum]

Sometimes I feel sorry for people whose musical careers seem to cost them more money than they make...

 

/sighs and raises hand...

 

The current band I'm in costs me a lot more money than what I intake. I don't mind in a lot of ways as I have got to play some really great gigs in front of some really nice crowds. But...it does get annoying when I take a look at just how much money I have lost. But again, I don't depend upon music to make a living. If I did, there would be no way in hell I'd be in this band. I'm sure that at some point in the future, I'm going to have to reevaluate being in this band and decide if it's still worth loosing money.

[jcadmus]

I left the band when I realized that being in the band paid less than not being in the band.

 

There's an almost Zen-like quality to that statement.

[EddiePlaysBass]

I left the band when I realized that being in the band paid less than not being in the band.

 

There's an almost Zen-like quality to that statement.

 

Seeing as how Zen and Buddhism is all about non-materialist thought (afaikwinf*) I would disagree with that assessment :grin:

 

* = as far as I know, which is not far

[SteveC]

It's not ALWAYS about money for me, but at this point in my life and "career" I just don't have time to give away. My child needs/deserves as much time as I can can give her. I'll do a free gig once in a while, fo rexposure, to be a nice guy, but I normally won't play for free. My time, edcation and experience are worth something.

[Phil W]

Thanks for the perspective Jeremy.

I feel pretty good about being asked so much.

It's a new thing for me and both gives me a little confidence and also motivates me to do a great job!

[Danzilla]

Some of you may have heard of WhiteHeart, a christian rock band from the 80's and 90's. One of their bass players (throughout the years) was from around here, and he left the band when he realized he was getting paid a fraction as the original members.

 

One of my favorite bands, even with the rotating membership door. And I'm pretty sure I know (and have met) the one you mean. Fortunately for them, the majority of the members of WH have gone on to be session aces.

[Chewbubba]

Last I heard (and it's been awhile), he went on to video weddings or something equally random and loves it.

 

But for all I know, he went back and got in to session work. He was good enough.

[jcadmus]

I left the band when I realized that being in the band paid less than not being in the band.

 

There's an almost Zen-like quality to that statement.

 

Seeing as how Zen and Buddhism is all about non-materialist thought (afaikwinf*) I would disagree with that assessment :grin:

 

* = as far as I know, which is not far

 

Well, I was referring to the circular, seemingly self-contradictory, Steven Wright nature of the statement.

[Wally Malone]

Bands like the Doobie Brothers & Tower of Power have remaining original members who remain partners in the business. The other musicians are hired guns who are paid well but I'm sure do not receive the same as the original members.

 

Wally

[EddiePlaysBass]

Well, I was referring to the circular, seemingly self-contradictory, Steven Wright nature of the statement.

 

Well, Steven Wright can't be wrong ...

[TimR]

I'm an experienced hill walker. Should I charge every time I go out with my friends in the hills?

 

Bass Playing is my hobby, I'm lucky enough to be good enough that people want to pay me for my playing. There are not many hobbies that you get paid for and in some cases actually make a profit. I draw a distinct line between what I will do for free and what I want to get paid for. And I like to have a fair share, no more and no less, of the pie.

 

The difficult bit is working out how big is the pie and how many slices there are.

 

In the case where you don't know how big the pie is or how many slices there are, you should take just enough to be satisfied.

 

I'm in a philosophical mood today guys.

[EddiePlaysBass]

There are not many hobbies that you get paid for and in some cases actually make a profit.

 

I kindly disagree here ... There is a distinction in types of hobbies. If you collect stamps or walk hills, you're - arguably - not causing anyone else to make money on your behalf. These things, you do for yourself. Hobbies with a performance factor usually indicate a profit factor of sorts. Soccer games attract supporters who pay entrance fees and consume beer and hot dogs. If you play soccer in Europe, as soon as you reach a decent level you get paid weekly, even if you sit on a bench.

 

Why should a band be treated differently?

[Luke73]

I'm an experienced hill walker. Should I charge every time I go out with my friends in the hills?

 

Bass Playing is my hobby, I'm lucky enough to be good enough that people want to pay me for my playing. There are not many hobbies that you get paid for and in some cases actually make a profit. I draw a distinct line between what I will do for free and what I want to get paid for. And I like to have a fair share, no more and no less, of the pie.

 

The difficult bit is working out how big is the pie and how many slices there are.

 

In the case where you don't know how big the pie is or how many slices there are, you should take just enough to be satisfied.

 

I'm in a philosophical mood today guys.

 

The way I see it, the problem with playing for free is that you may well be taking bread out of the mouth of a pro who relies on paid gigs to make their living.

 

I'm not saying part time musicians shouldn't compete with full time pros, but if you're prepared to play for free, it isn't really an equal playing field.

 

I'm in a band that plays original material - and we don't always get paid. Most of the time we do, but not always. It does depend on the venue. Some of the venues here simply don't pay any bands anything. I don't like it one little bit...especially when the audience is throwing money over the bar, but the reality is that if you want to play in those venues, that's the way it is. Most of the venues we play in however pay something - ranging from not very much to quite a decent amount.

 

If we were a cover band, we wouldn't play for free. Ever.

 

[DavidMPires]

As a cover band we never play for free, however as Tim pointed out music is an hobby for me, so should be treated as such, Now if I had to put bread on the table with money coming from music the story would be different i'd be doing a lot more thatn just a gig a month.

[Ross Brown]

For me it is fun and used to be a hobby. Now it is not a hobby, it is the other thing I do. Like a second job (that doesn't pay well). We as a band work very hard to be good musically and be professional in our sound, attitude, work ethic, etc...

 

We have a lower limit of gig pay. We decided that we would not load in and out at a certain amount. We are a cover band and usually have a good turn out after many gigs that we endured with bad turn out.

 

We split pay evenly regardless of the extra things anyone does. It keeps it simple and allows for a natural buffer for differences in personalities. It works. If we got into a jam and needed to hire a sub, we would pay what we had too, temporarily to get by. If they became part of the regular band, equal crappy pay it would be.

 

We need to be good enough to be better than a band willing to play for free. If we are not, then that is life....