'64 P-bass question

[surfmonkey]

Hi all,

 

I had the pleasure of playing a killer sounding '64 p-bass in the studio this weekend. The bass belonged to the studio, not me. Anywho, it seemed extremely light, especially for a vintage bass. Most p-bass I've played from the 60's have some solid weight to them. This one was really really light. Does anyone know what kind of wood they used for the bodies of those basses in '64? Was there something unusual about that year? Just curious...

[LowDownDad]

I've got a '70 p-bass that feels pretty light compared to my '07 p-bass. Killer tone, also. Think its body is alder.

 

lowdowndad

[jcadmus]

I have a '76 Jazz Bass that weighs in a nine pounds. I believe the body is maple, but it may be ash.

[jeremy c]

A '64 p bass is alder, unless it is blonde, in which case it is ash.

 

The weight of Fender basses varies quite a bit. The ones from the mid to late '70s seem to be the heaviest.

 

The older basses seem to be getting lighter over the years as the wood continues to dry out. I think this is also making them sound better. My '71 jazz bass is pretty light and sounds better every year.

 

The only thing unusual about 1964 is that I turned 16 that year.

[1111000]

I don't know the full effects of % saturation of a bass's wood with water (obviously 100% is bad), but in general something from 3-5% is a fairly exceptional number from what I am told. At RIC they kiln dry everything to 6-7% before putting the finish on. John "Infamous On This Forum" Hall mentioned something about Leo Fender's early basses and guitars going through a very similar process until the mid-70s; I don't know if the process continues with Fender today or not, but it makes sense that it would. This aspect of dehumidifying a guitar is generally, like Jeremy said, what makes the old ones sound better--or so it has been said to me. Apparently the resonance improves to our ears as water escapes. Which is interesting, because water is a fairly conductive molecule, what with its two poles and tendency to form 3/4 of a crystal lattice in the liquid phase. But lots of woods have non-polar molecules such as terpenes and wood finishes are non-polar, and this may be what makes water act so negatively in the context of a wooden instrument.

 

Just postulatin'.

[Wally Malone]

The only thing unusual about 1964 is that I turned 16 that year.

 

That is the year I graduated from high school!

 

Wally

[bassbuddy]

Hi guys,

 

Man, it's been a while since I've posted over here...been in school plus gigging a lot. Anyway, hope all you criminals of bass have been well.

 

My '64 P bass is about medium weight I'd say. I still LOVE that thing even though I hacked it up when I was younger. If you click the Ist link below,you can hear it..Play the "play this tune" on the top left hand side of the home page. If you scroll down, you can see it .

 

best,

 

Kenny

[Davo-London]

I've played a lot of 60's Js and Ps and whilst they are quite varied I prefer the thinner necked Ps from this period. The woods are alder, maple and rosewood. Great tone. The weights do vary but in my experience they are universally lighter than 70's models.

 

I still look out for a refinished J or P from the 60's so that has modest value and so you could do it up without losing too much value. The Js are far more expensive if they are pre-CBS (65) but it makes less difference IMHO with the Ps.

 

Davo

 

Davo

[Rocky McDougall]

Most bass builders order their body blanks from a supplier and they are pre kiln-dried to a specified moisture content. The builder then attempts to store the blanks in a dry area to maintain that moisture level. Depending on where the finished bass spends it's lifetime it could become drier or it could become more damp. I don't think we can catagorically say that all old basses dry out. I'm sure there are some old basses out there that are "water logged" from their environment.

Rocky

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Depending on where the finished bass spends it's lifetime it could become drier or it could become more damp. I don't think we can catagorically say that all old basses dry out.

 

this is the right answer. i have also heard that the vibrations from decades of playing break up the cellulose structure of the wood, causing the tone to open with time. of course, i think i might have read that at the web site of a "relic" company to justify the time their instruments spend on a vibration table.

 

at the same time, that is also part of why lake superior timbers are favored for instrument making. a century or more in high pressure, near-freezing water devoid of light chemically changes the wood, such that its cellular structure is more open. or so i've read. i think the fact that it's tight-grained old growth timber is also a factor in its popularity for other uses like furniture.

 

robb.

[Max Valentino]

The olde, pre-CBS, Fenders did use "old growth" lumber which was plentiful and abundant at the time (no longer the case....sadly). The trees were older, wider etc. which effected how the instrument aged...to some degree. Instruments, over time,and amount of play they are subjected to (the constant vibrations DO have an effect on things), dry out and become lighter. Also, the nitro-cellulose laquer used on the older Fenders was much thinner and lighter than the harder, thicker finishes used today. Over time, it breaks down and becomes soft. The wood "breathes" thru it. All this effects the weight, and the tone of the instrument (and then there is the pickup magnets, windings, capacitors and pts...and that old cloth-covered wire...), and it is all, at least in part, what makes those vintage basses so desired (along with the "je nais se quoi" mojo-factor which goes with vintage instruments...) FWIW, last year I sold my 65 P Bass which I had for 20 yrs or so. It was very light--tho I never weighed it. I picked it up 2nd hand for $125...and sold it to a Japanese collector for more than some new cars cost.

[bassbuddy]

Man...you guys really know your wood...do you guys also double as luthiers ???

 

Best,

 

kenny

[jeremy c]

Man...you guys really know your wood...do you guys also double as luthiers ???

 

Best,

 

kenny

 

I wood if I could.

[bassbuddy]

You funny Jeremy...!!

 

I don't know if this is a '64 ..but this P Bass sounds

 

FAT AND MEATY

 

Plus it has to be in this dude's fingers...everytime I hear this session...I gotta dance

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gzyj3Wxhjr4

 

Best,

 

Kenny

[1111000]

i have also heard that the vibrations from decades of playing break up the cellulose structure of the wood, causing the tone to open with time. of course, i think i might have read that at the web site of a "relic" company to justify the time their instruments spend on a vibration table.

 

Those vibrations would have to be really intense I would think. From wikipedia:

"Cellulose requires a temperature of 320 °C and pressure of 25 MPa to become amorphous in water."

"The multiple hydroxyl groups on the glucose residues from one chain form hydrogen bonds with oxygen molecules on another chain, holding the chains firmly together side-by-side and forming microfibrils with high tensile strength. This strength is important in cell walls, where they are meshed into a carbohydrate matrix, conferring rigidity to plant cells."

 

The second quote (about hydroxyl groups and hydrogen bonding) is really key and was immediately what I thought of when I puzzled over whether vibrations could break up cellulose. Personally I don't think the amount of vibration that would cause the breakage of celluolosic microfibrils could be good for the overall health of the instrument. We're talking about perhaps millions of these hydrogen bonds in a large mass of wood, and that's from the order of the same stuff that causes our proteins to correctly fold and allows life to exist because of the structure of water. It's numerous and it occurs almost everywhere, giving order to carbon-based life. Sonicating or otherwise resonating that stuff out of existence is going to be very hard on it and seems deleterious.