Monitoring keys in stereo - in ear monitors??

[jarrell]

I am thinking about upgrading my keyboard amplification/monitoring system, since I got my new Kurzweil PC3. It sure sounds great through stereo headphones at home; on the gig it sounds good, but not great, and that's because of my amplification system. I have been using either two Roland KC-300's, or a Groove Tubes SFX Space Station Mk. II with 1 Roland KC-300 on the sub out. With the SFX I found I must always use the sub out, which is really just a line out (i.e. no low pass filter), and then it sound decent, but does not have the true stereo sound of 2 separate matched speakers - it is less stereo and more processed. The Rolands, they are just OK sounding, kinda mid-rangey, but they have good mixer features built in - 4 channel mixer, stereo link, monitor channel that doesn't feed the line out, stereo and mono line out, and separate line out volume (which the Motion Sound amps don't have).

 

Anyway I am thinking I can get better high fidelity response from, say, two EV SxA360's (plus they are lightweight) which I have read a lot about on here. I want something under 40 lbs. per liftable unit.

 

But here is the deal: I have found that it is hard to hear yourself in stereo, which is what I really want. I don't want one amp on the other side of the stage, or the speakers on poles out in front - I want to hear really good quality stereo sound from where I sit. I play a lot of small clubs, not so many huge places, so sometimes it is difficult to get two amps (plus a bass amp, I play left hand bass) directly behind me, balanced for stereo.

 

OK, there are stereo amps, like the Traynor K4, Motion Sound KP 200 and the upcoming KP 500. I tried and returned a Motion Sound KBR 3D a few years ago, very poor bass response, heavy, and awkward (the weight was not evenly centered). I hear the KP 200 is underpowered, maybe the 500 is the ticket but it is like 57 lbs. I think. But I'm sure in any case a pair of SxA360's would be better sounding than any of these; I want that level of quality (looks like even EV has upped the ante; they have a ZX series that looks to be even better, but only a powered 15 (the ZXA5) which is heavier at 49 lbs. than what I want, plus I prefer 12's to 15's for keys in general.

 

So, and here is the point of this thread, I am considering in ear stereo monitors. Who has experience on using them? I play with a trio (keys guitar and drums) where I'm guessing they will not want to use them, so I'm thinking

 

#1 only I'll being using them

 

#2 I'll need a mixer (have a Mackie 1202 already)

 

#3 I need to have a mix of everything (not just my stereo keys, but guitar, drums, vocals), want to be able to adjust levels (my vocals or keys, kick or snare, etc.).

 

In other words, even for a small club, using in ears seems like it causes all these complications in order to get the right in ear mix of everything. How have others approached this?

 

One thing I'm thinking is getting everyone to use them might help some - otherwise I must continue to bring a monitor amp just for them. Another is, our drummer uses an acoustic set, not an electronic one, so I want to avoid having to mike all the drums just to monitor them, but if I don't, I will have to assume the bleed thru of live drums will be at the right volume with my in ear keys. Maybe that would work, if I used the bleed through volume of drums and guitar as a baseline, and then set my keys levels to match - but then again, that might be too soft. Also, hoping that that bleed thru volume would come perfectly balanced - that is, having in ear monitors in my ears and then expecting the drums to still seep in but with the kick balanced with the snare, and the guitar, etc. But wait - it gets even more complicated - say I put a couple of mikes on the drums and guitar to feed them into my in ear mix - I will also get whatever keyboard monitor amp I am using so they can hear me. Arghhhh!

 

Anyway, any experience with the in ear route would be appreciated - I need to hear from the in ears peers...

 

 

[delirium]

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/ear/fail1a.jpg

[drawback]

If you're in a low-volume, almost acoustic volume trio, would you consider just using non-isolating, good quality stereo earbuds/phones directly from your keyboard headphone jack... simply to enhance your keyboard experience? Something I've thought of doing but have never tried.

 

_

[bhodaway10]

Hi Jarell. I don't have much experience in in ears although they seem pretty cool. However, I live in Sunnyvale - about 5 min away from you in Mountain View and I had lots of problems getting my rig.

 

The EV360s are heavily lauded on this forum. Being in the bay area, they're almost impossible to test since no place around here stocks them. I had one place in Oakland try to get me a test pair but after 2 weeks, they haven't gotten them in.

 

I tried the KP200 (too weak for what I was looking to use it for w/o a subwoofer) and I've been waiting for the KP500sn for months. It's been delayed for some reason (I've been e-mailing them every couple of months and the original date was June, then pushed back to August, and now to September) as is the 360.

 

The Traynor is untestable in the Bay Area is well. People on the forums have said that the stereo effect isn't very great with the Traynor.

 

While I was waiting for the EV's, I saw two accugroove cabinets on Craigslist for a good price. They're unbelievably light - 32 lbs. You do have to bring a mixer and power amp (qsc or other) but after some careful shopping, I was able to find my whole setup for less than two Ev's.

 

I felt this was the most versatile setup for me because it was portable, I could use it for my organ trios (for running organ bass), piano trios, and also for larger venues with vocals running through the cabinets.

 

Good luck!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[timwat]

Okay, I use IEMs and have for years. I've found that I love the fidelity and control of IEM, as do lots of users. But it's not for everyone, some folks try it and can't get used to the isolation feeling or just don't like sticking things into their ears.

 

In this application it seems like it may be more trouble and hassle than its worth for you. You've already hit on a number of the challenges and problems configuring IEM for just you.

 

Some of the main benefits of IEMs don't seem to apply to your situation:

 

1) hearing your keys above the din of a loud band

2) better fidelity than a powered monitor can provide

3) reducing the overall monitor volume because the whole band's going IEM

4) reducing your rig weight/complexity by eliminating power monitors

 

Rather, sounds to me like going with two powered PA cabs is what will really float your boat. I will say the KC350 is a markedly better sounding unit than the KC300, but I dislike both of them though I still use one of each (one at home in the land of old keyboards, one at our rehearsal spot). Live I use a powered 15" cabinet from Carvin, they're pretty inexpensive and I like how it sounds, though I'm sure the EVs sound much better - and cost a lot more.

[bhodaway10]

Tim, does all your band use in ears?

 

Maybe this will stop the oblivious person who comes up to talk to you while you are burning through a solo!!! Seems to happen to me all the time....the band always cracks up when that happens!

[Al Coda]

I am considering in ear stereo monitors. Who has experience on using them? I play with a trio (keys guitar and drums) where I'm guessing they will not want to use them, so I'm thinking

 

#1 only I'll being using them

 

#2 I'll need a mixer (have a Mackie 1202 already)

 

#3 I need to have a mix of everything (not just my stereo keys, but guitar, drums, vocals), want to be able to adjust levels (my vocals or keys, kick or snare, etc.).

 

In other words, even for a small club, using in ears seems like it causes all these complications in order to get the right in ear mix of everything. How have others approached this?

 

One thing I'm thinking is getting everyone to use them might help some -

 

Anyway, any experience with the in ear route would be appreciated - I need to hear from the in ears peers...

 

Hello !

 

Using in-ear monitoring only makes sense if all your band members use it.

To avoid the isolation from the audience, just use room mikes to blend ´em in the mix.

For communication, you can use combined headsets w/ mics, just these, vocalists use anyway and if you´re all doing some backing vocals it makes sense anyway.

 

At least, for larger productions, it depends on what the production wants.

A clean stage w/ no backline visible p.ex.

Better acoustic isolation of the (miked) instruments, therefore no use of wedges and sidefills ...

 

In these cases you´ll have a monitor mixing guy, - but ...

 

Small clubs,- I´d say no !

 

I assume, there´s some kind of PA anyway at each event/gig/location,- isn´t it?

 

I myself prefer to use small (studio)monitor speakers mounted on my keystand(s) to listen to my keys in stereo at low volume level, the speakers facing me, not the band.

In addition, a balanced stereo line runs to the monitors and one to the FOH.

 

For a small rig, there was a great linemixer solution from SPL/Grapewine, the keymix6 which splits into 2 sums, monitor and main. This allows you to blend in a mono monitor line from the band into your small personell speakers in addition, avoiding the usage of an additional wedge at you stage position.

It also has a mic input which can be routed to monitor line only, so you can speak to your bandmembers only too.

 

Discontinued product unfortunally, but these appear @ebay sometimes.

 

Relatively cheap in-ear solution for a whole band is SM-Pro Audio Stage Buddy incl. 1 master unit and 4 slave units.

 

A.C.

[jarrell]

Thanks everyone for your $0.02. I guess it is impractical to use in ears just for myself, not the rest of the band, in a small club situation. I just want to hear high quality stereo from where I sit, and can't always guarantee that I can position, say, 2 SxA360's at ear height 4 - 6 feet behind me, equidistant from each other (and not too loud, too!). Yeah, the accugroove's are lauded here as well - I already have a good mixer, I just like having powered speakers - one less thing to carry, although I already bring a ton of gear it seems like. And yeah, the SxA360's do seem to be hard to audition, WTF???

 

A.C., I too had thought of the idea of mounting two studio monitor-like speakers on a keyboard stand, if I could find a stand that would allow that, and having them facing back to me, so I could get great stereo sound. If I ran all my keys thru the mackie 1202, I could have vocals, guitar, whatever come in as well but not go to the mains (which could then be out in front, or in back but not necessarily facing me). What stand and what speakers do you use for this? Anybody else try this nearfield monitors on keyboard stand approach??

 

 

[MoKen]

I agree with drawback's proposal, except I run it through a small mixer. I use Bose in-ear buds to enhance my own sound. They don't isolate at all so you hear the drums, etc. as if you weren't using anything, but you hear yourself at whatever volume you want. I mix in the PA output, but keep it low. On a large stage, if I'm isolated from someone I need to hear, I will run am ambient mic into my mix as well.

 

HTH. Ken