Bejeeber Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Alvino Ray was a bit ahead of his time with the old talk box action! Having seen clips of him making his steel guitar talk, I never had any idea how he did it, until taking a gander just now at wikipedia and YouTube. Wikipedia: "In 1939, Rey used a carbon throat microphone to modulate his electric guitar sound. The mic, developed for military pilots, was placed on Rey's wife Luise standing behind a curtain singing along with the guitar lines. The novel combination was called "Singing Guitar", but was not developed further. The innovation was the first known talk box experiment." YouTube example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqtf9ITvjYs Just a pinch between the geek and chum
Caevan O'Shite Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Wow! Not just impressed by the "singing guitar" effect, but the chops and arranging and everything! Talent and skill to just burn the droves of lame mediocre "stars" that Gifthorse laments in his thread elsewhere here now... The puppet leaves me with mixed feelings, though... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
Guitarzan Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 that is an impressive and cool clip. yeah the little guitar dude is weird. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will
coolneelseven Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 That's pretty sweet. I loved the call and response thing. It is kinda creepy with that little guitar gremlin, but cool nevertheless Thanks
Caevan O'Shite Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Just so ya all know- he's real... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
Scott Fraser Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 I knew Ray was the guy who started the talk box thing, but I'd never seen the marionette before. I guess there was a certain wow factor to keeping the process hidden, but it would have been nice if they had Ray's wife onstage to do the vocalizing with him, as a duet. How many years passed between Alvino Ray's talk box & the introduction of The Bag? Scott Fraser Scott Fraser
Guitarzan Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Just so ya all know- he's real... probably hiding under my bed... http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will
Caevan O'Shite Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 (Pssst- we've all been misspelling his name; it's Alvino Rey) I knew Ray was the guy who started the talk box thing, but I'd never seen the marionette before. I guess there was a certain wow factor to keeping the process hidden, but it would have been nice if they had Ray's wife onstage to do the vocalizing with him, as a duet. How many years passed between Alvino Ray's talk box & the introduction of The Bag? Scott Fraser Yeah, it would've been cool if he'd done a sort of Les Paul & Mary Ford kinda thing with it; then again, audiences of the time might've found the visual of Mrs. Rey appearing to sing some of those passages to be even weirder and creepier than the puppet seems to some of us. Especially with some electro-mechanical gizmo strapped over her throat! Now... just how was this particular effect achieved here, anyways? How was the throat-mic interfaced with the signal of the pedal-steel? Anybody know, or have an educated guess? Just so ya all know- he's real... probably hiding under my bed... He ate Chucky, and chased Freddy Kruger around with a B.C. Rich Ironbird... and that pointy-guitar was his date... Cool by me. Never liked those two. But he was just stringin' that poor guitar along the whole time, just for the action... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
Bejeeber Posted September 1, 2008 Author Posted September 1, 2008 Now... just how was this particular effect achieved here, anyways? How was the throat-mic interfaced with the signal of the pedal-steel? Anybody know, or have an educated guess? I'd be very curious to know how on earth they approached that whole thing myself! Just a pinch between the geek and chum
d halfnote Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Thanks, BeeJee, for bringing this into the light! Does Ry Cooder know about this?! ...& I thought we had Pete Drake to thank for all that stuff. Back to the Originator, did anyone notice how slack those stings were on AR's guitar? Or that it seems to've had no possition markers ? Think about that for a moment... & what about the biggest trick of all ? Getting the offstage vocals synced with the guitar lines...I don't mean the electronics but the timing? Also impressive: the trumpet-like effects. The second time time I watched that I began to wonder if it were a piece of show biz shtick, w/ the actual guitarist off-stage (the guitar looks so fake), Then I watched this, which some of you may've already seen but which is a more interesting version of the solo section I think (kinda like Hendrix imitating the 3 Stooges), as well as showing AR at work on a different set-up: Also worth note is the section about 1:45~1:57 in this one: As for how the effect works, check this out from Kay Kyser's College of Musical Knowledge: It looks like a typical talk-box effect; speakers pressed to tthe throat provide the vibrations (bet that felt weird!) & the mouth is the resonant chamber. Here's more: http://substation.co.nz/blog/?p=106 http://musicformaniacs.blogspot.com/2007/09/strange-sounds-of-sonovox.html d=halfnote
picker Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 No, I think it's more of a Vocorder effect. The carbon mic at AR's wife's throat picks up actual vibrations from her voice, which modulates an amplified instrument's signal. There isn't a mic at the guy's mouth in Kay Kaiser's video to pick up the sound bouncing out of the resonant chamber of his oro-pharyngeal palate, as with the Pete Drake Talk Box. Drake, by the way, is the the guy who showed Joe Walsh how to do the talk box thing, and also the husband of Dottie West. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
d halfnote Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Maybe you're right, Picker...I don't know. "The Sonovox used small speakers attached to the singer's throat that were patched through music instruments - horns, guitars, etc. The singer mouthed the words of a song, and by changing the shape of the mouth and position of the tongue, changed the sound of the instrument." It does say the speakers were "patched through instruments". However it also says the vocalist "mouths the words", not sings, so there may not be a natural vibration of the voice" to pick up as you say. I'd point out that the presenc/absence of mics may be a meaningless film-dubbing standard of that time. Can speech formants be picked up through the larynx ? How'd one signal modulate another in those days ? Why are there two separate elements applied to the throat ? d=halfnote
Bejeeber Posted September 1, 2008 Author Posted September 1, 2008 What in the HECK were they DOING!!!??? Just a pinch between the geek and chum
Scott Fraser Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 It looks like a typical talk-box effect; speakers pressed to tthe throat provide the vibrations (bet that felt weird!) & the mouth is the resonant chamber. Yup, although the more recent Heil Talk Box & The Bag didn't work like this. They have a horn driver running into a plastic tube which you hold in your mouth while mouthing words or syllables into the PA mic. Scott Fraser Scott Fraser
d halfnote Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 What in the HECK were they DOING!!!??? I suspect that at least part of what they were doing was recreational aromatherapy but... I talked to a speech therapist friend today who said vocal formants wouldn't transfer back to the throat, so the mouth must've been the ultimate resonant chamber. Then I got this... Quote: Originally Posted by halfnote I've recently become aware of this predecesor of the talk-box/vocoder effect but can't quite grasp it's operation. Question: Does the device take the vibrations from the throat & apply that to the amplified signals of instruments or does it take the instrument signal & artificially vibrate the larynx to produce a sound that's shaped by the mouth ? Mike Rivers responds: "The latter. It's like an artificial larynx. The timbre comes from the musical playback to the speakers and the phonemes are provided by the artist's mouth and throat. It's kind of like the "talk box" that has a speaker in a box that blows out a tube that the singer holds in his mouth. Many years ago there was a device that (sort of) worked in the reverse of the Sonovox. It was a pickup that attached to a singer's throat, and I tihnk there were a couple of other sensors. Its output was MIDI note data so you could "play" a synthesizer with your voice." Of course that, still doesn't really tell us exactly how the did all that w/the "primitive" electronics of those days, though, does it...? d=halfnote
Bejeeber Posted September 2, 2008 Author Posted September 2, 2008 Hey way to get diggin' into the research there Dr. d! Just a pinch between the geek and chum
d halfnote Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 Thanks but "type, point & click"'s all I did. We're still left with no firm answers about whathehecktheyweredoin'... Lemme axe you this: I've played guitar for quite a while & am an avid student of esoterica but I'd never heard Alvino Rey before. What put you on the trail here ? d=halfnote
Bejeeber Posted September 2, 2008 Author Posted September 2, 2008 What put you on the trail here ? Well because I'm a frikkin GEEZER (darnit! ) I have this childhood memory from the 60's of him being on TV and making his pedal steel say "Al-vi-no-Rey". Of course hearing that on TV would completely fascinate anyone , and it seemed impossible, or at least magical....he was just sitting there playing, no microphone, not mouthing the words with his lips. Fast forward about a million years (dangit! ) to 2008 and I'm finally getting around to procuring something I've wanted forever... a talkbox! Woo! Well the no-brainer of hunting down 'ol Alvino, that crazed mofo, on YouTube finally occurred to me, and the rest is forum history! Just a pinch between the geek and chum
Strategery Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 Whoa...that was "Sho-nuff" old school! I wonder if he was kin to Howdy Doody? Randy "Just play!"
Caevan O'Shite Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 I'm beginning to wonder if they weren't applying a signal from the pedal-steel to that throat-mic in such a way as to make its transducer act as a speaker and not a mic, and thus vibrate against her throat and out through her mouth which, in turn, would have been mic'ed. And then there's that freaky puppet... And then, there are things that you just couldn't make up... "In 1935 Alvino Rey was hired by Gibson Guitar to produce a prototype pickup based on the one he developed for his banjo. The result was used for Gibson's first electric guitar, the ES-150. The prototype is kept in the Hendrix Museum in Seattle! Thanx Alvin!!" Now, why, you may ask, would a 'site such as MonsterMovieMusic.BlogSpot.com be concerned with such things? Because Alvino Rey was behind some of the music for a film called The Bat (1959), using his pedal-steel to swoop and dive to underscore its giant fake bat. (Among other points of trivia minutiae, The Bat also featured actress Darla Hood in her final role; she was better known as having played Darla (who else?) in the old Little Rascals serials... ) AND THEN... There are Google search-results like the following: Search Google for: " Alvino Rey The Bat " One search result: Alvino Ray Gun Analysis The Alvino Ray Gun is my third favorite Bat-Trap, after the Siamese Human Knot ... Ross named Dr. Cassandra's weapon after the 1940s band leader Alvino Rey. ... Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _
BadLife Posted September 3, 2008 Posted September 3, 2008 I remember seeing that on TV and was also fascinated/freaked out by that puppet thing.
picker Posted September 3, 2008 Posted September 3, 2008 I saw Alvino Ray on a an early 60's ABC variety show called the King Family. Ray was married to one of the King Sisters. He pulled out a black Tele with a white guard and did a version of Flight Of The Bumble Bee that was all hammers and pull-offs, and it was absolutely brilliant. I'd like to see that again... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Big Red 67 Posted September 3, 2008 Posted September 3, 2008 That puppet is damn creepy. Big Red's Ride Blog
d halfnote Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 I'm beginning to wonder if they weren't applying a signal from the pedal-steel to that throat-mic in such a way as to make its transducer act as a speaker and not a mic, and thus vibrate against her throat and out through her mouth which, in turn, would have been mic'ed.... That's what I think was done...but the whole thing's still a bit unclear. My understanding is that ultimately the formants/speechqualities can't be picked up through the throat but there are 2 units applied to the throat, not just one. Why? Oh well, it's still one of the oddest bits of film I've seen & I'm a fan of Captain Beefheart, etc. BTW, one of the lesser known facts about Zappa is that as a child he made & performed with marionettes. I wonder if he'd seen this?! d=halfnote
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