Not trying to argue but here`s some interesting facts.

[LeiDeLi]

To be absolutely accurate: I am now 50.58 years old, and meant vietnam era veteran, not military veteran. LeiDeLi

[rold]

Thanks man...that's all.. :)

[strat0124]

Lets be clear...the governments involved in this mess or not...I repeat..not innocent victims. The people who suffer because of these governments ARE innocent victims...on either side. Afghans aren't our enemies...Iraqis, Iranians, etc. The governments maybe....... The root cause of this mess can be traced.....we just might not like what we see. In the immortal words of Pogo: We have met the enemy and they is us!

[lrossmusic]

[quote] If you have some Muslim friends, why not invite them here to discuss this directly ?[/quote] I sure will. However I'm thinking my buddies are more like me and not completely up to snuff on exact content and interpretation, but I'm thinking they can direct me to some who are. Personally I must admit I've never read the whole Old Testament. The few sections that I scanned through I found confusing, to a large extent, and difficult to follow. Let's just say I wouldn't have made it as a Biblical scholar. At any rate I still feel are present difficulties are less involved with any misrepresentation of the Qur'an than with other factors stemming from what can be characterized as at least "perceived' injustices. I tend to agree with strat0124's last post in that all of the governments involved here, including ours, do not always practice what they preach and some of these "perceived' injustices do in fact have some merit.

[In Christ]

Ok people here are some FACTS that will shock you but will shine some light on this subject. I have studied the beliefs of Muslims some, but not enough to be an authority on it. However I just spent three days studing under a man who is a true "expert" on the Nation of Islam. His 30 yrs of personal study of the Quran and his living as a missionary in every Muslam nation in the world has given him a perspective that I doubt any share. Just to give you an idea as to how close this man is to what is happening. At these meetings audio or video were prohibited, because if any of what he was saying were to get back to the "wrong" people he and his family would be killed. You know the Christian prisoners just released from Kabul? He started their missionary work and knew them all personally. A member of congress of whom he knows called him for advise, you see he had bought a Quran after the events of 9/11 and began to read it. His question was "Am I missing something, this is supposed to be a peaceful religion but the writings of the Quran just don't seem to support that?" The experts reply was, "That's because it is not a peaceful religion!" He has been shot at, nearly blown up and on and on. All of this for one reason and one reason only he is a christian. And would on occasion bring up the confusing nature of the life of Mohammud and the Quran. Now wait I just remembered something they are peaceful. As long as you dress like they tell you. Eat what they tell you. Read what they tell you. Say what they tell you, get the point. Now ifyou think that I hate Muslims you are wrong the truth is, I love them these are lovely people whom truly love God, but they have been lied to by a man named Mohammud. And his lies are at the root of ALL of this mess. This is a religious matter and has very little to do with the status of our nation. We are "infidels" or "non-believers", because the Quran defines an infidel as a non-believer, and we have offended them and just like a person who may slander Mohammud we are to be killed. In fact the goal, as stated by Mohammud himself, is that Muslams will rule the world through Gods might, so that Allah or God may be glorified. Islam is NOT a peaceful accomodating religion, they are hell bent on taking over the world. Which has made them the fastest growing religion in the world. I'm sorry but "peacefull" it just is not so. How can I say this, well consider this. In Saudi Arabia it is a CRIME to renounce Mohammud punishable by death. Someone said it is a "inclusive" religion. Well maybe if you like your head chopped off, because that is what will happen to you in Saudi Arabia if you change to ANY other religion. And you will be killed in Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and most of the other "stan" Muslim nations in that area. Ahh, such a peaceful religion, pllleeeaassseee. :rolleyes: About now some of you are thinking of some very sweet well doing muslim friend and getting your flame throwers fired up. Well guess what not all Muslims share these philosophies. Out of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims most of them just want a good life for their children, food in their mouths and shelter over their heads, just like you and me. But our problem and the problem of the rest of the non-muslim nations is the devout muslims who actually read and study the Quran and don't just rap it up in a nice cloth and put it in the highest place of occupancy in the house. (A tradition among muslims to show respect for the Quran.) You see the Quran is as has been stated, very confusing and contradicting book. Which has bred confusion amung muslims. For instance the Quran teachs that the writings of both the Old and New testaments are to be studied and are Gods inspired word and that Gods word can NEVER be changed by man or any other entity. Not that they aren't supposed to but that it's not possible, in the same way that it's not possible for me to go out in my garage and benchpress my car. Well that's funny because one of the accusations toward the Nation of Israel is that they "changed" the bible. Go figure. And we christians, like it or not all Americans are seen as christians in the eyes of the devout, changed the Gospel, because God would have never let Jesus die in such a terrible way. :confused: Well about now you are thinking, "Where did this guy get all this?" How about a man whom the F.B.I. called to help identify some potential terrorists. A man whose two brothers are high ranking millitary officers and has the kind of political savy to get a christian school opened in northern Iraq for the Kurd people. Which is the ONLY province in the middle east to have christian bussinesses, churches and schools. With only one death. A friend of his that was shot in the back of the head by an Iranian for whom the man was checking out a book. He killed him for slandering Mohammud. But Islam is a peaceful religion. I could tell you a lot more, 3x this, but I think you see what is really going on here. As much as has been done in the name of christians, whom found NO comfort upon death, the teachings of the bible do not support the evil that was and is done. However the acts of 9/11 are all supported by the Quran, don't believe it? Why is it so important for Osama to make this a "Holy War" or "Jihad" simple, the ONLY sure way a muslim can get in to Heaven is to die as a Holy Warrior. You should be concerned, but not affraid and for Gods sake don't become prejudice toward muslims because most are very good decent people just carring on the traditions of their family never really knowing the truth of Islam. I mean come on,what Mullah is going to respond when asked if Islam is a peaceful religion, No we want the whole world to bow to Allah or DIE!! All I have told you is true and supported by the lifes of hundreds of thousand American christian martyrs. :( Gods Love, Jamey

[LeiDeLi]

Jamey, Thanks for corroborating with info from other sources what I have been trying to get across. It is not about hatred or prejudice against Muslims; it is about recognizing the facts of what the Qur'an actually teaches and how it is interpreted by a disturbingly large fraction of Muslims. In one of my posts, I posted a link to an on-line version of the Qu'an, so that anyone who has doubts about what we have said can look it up for themselves. Certainly there are very many Muslims who are nice people and are trying to live good lives in accordance with their ancestor's traditions. They probably haven't actually studied the Qur'an themselves. But, as one former Muslim from Egypt said: "Osama and the Fundamentalists are not 'extremists', they are just Muslims who have actually studied the Qur'an." As you very well point out, every religion considers themselves "peaceful and loving", as long as you do exactly as they tell you. It is in how they treat members of other religions that the true "divine inspiration" can be assessed. I would hope to simply warn people and wake-up any potential Muslims or Muslims who have not critically examined their faith before they have "bought into" the whole Islamic doctrine, which, when studied critically, shows that it can lead only to a violent mind-control cult, with primitive barbarism as an ideal. Of course I guess that it really is possible that God does not wish us to befreind Christians or Jews, wants us to reign terror on their hearts, and wants us to follow His instructions to prepare a burning fire for them (all direct from the Qur'an); but personally, I just don't believe it ! Obviously the WTC attackers had a different view. I wonder where they got it ? :) Peace, LeiDeLi

[Dogfur]

Here is a take from an outsider to this board; It seems pertinent to me now... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Humanity has neither progressed nor regressed over the span of recorded history. Philosophy and scripture have diversified but the one constant in the conduct of our affairs is murder. Murder and righteous joy in murder. As murder prevails society fails. All values perish except our overwhelming conceit. What is marvelous to us about ourselves may not seem quite so wonderful to a society risen above the suicidal. This may be as true of our art and music as of our mathematics and machinery. Recently, Five Thousand Lives were lost over points of scripture which can be interpreted in more than one way, both allowing and disallowing murder as befits the motives of the believer. The ambiguous nature of scripture is the nature of language. Most especially archaic language some of whose root meanings are inevitibly lost. Seek and ye shall find. My cat, despite its bell, just proudly brought in another dead bird. Since the truth of human nature has not changed in recorded history - or unrecorded history, if sacrificial cairns are any indication of the implausibility of a golden age - it seems likely it is not going to change, regardless of lessons. We have only the personal choice to evolve, as individuals, beyond the sphere of murder: to decide that death shall not issue on our account, either by our action or by our leave. Though this stance makes no difference in society at large, from the standpoint that all human beings are worlds entire unto themselves, it augers well for infinity." "One day the sun admitted, I am just a shadow. I wish I could show you the infinite Incandescence that has cast my brilliant image! I wish I could show you, when you are lonely or in darkness, the Astonishing Light of your own Being!" - Hafiz (trans: Ladinsky) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an entry from the online journal of Robert Hunter, here is a link if you are interested: http://www.dead.net/RobertHunterArchive/files/newjournal/50journal_9.10.01.html Thanks for the opportunity, Dogfur

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by jbtiffee@netzero.net: [b] Now ifyou think that I hate Muslims you are wrong the truth is, I love them these are lovely people whom truly love God, but they have been lied to by a man named Mohammud.[/b][/quote] You're missing a key point. The Qur'an was not written by Mohammed. It was written generations after his death by a Islamic elders who were already bickering about control of the faith. - Mohammed left no instructions for choosing a successor. - It is these people, not Mohammed, who adopted ancient "eye for an eye" ideals from the Old Testament, and who enforced separation of men and women, something that they learned from the Greeks. The Qur'an contains what was then a very forward thinking philosophy. It gave women the right to divorce and inheritance, concepts that Western countries would not adopt until the nineteenth century. Nowhere in the Qur'an is there reference to what a woman should or should not wear. That all came about as a tradition, again borrowed from the Greeks who were seen as the paragon of civilization - arguably, they were in many ways, just not their treatment of women. Someone killed for insulting Mohammed? Okay, have you forgotten that the Puritans that founded the colonies that would become the United States, and whose influence still exists in out laws, ostracized and killed people for committing adultery, burned people for practicing witchcraft, and lynched the ultra-religious Quakers despite the supposed puritanical quest for freedom from religions persecution. We still have puritanical laws on our books that provide for harsh penalties for "sodomy," EVEN IF PRACTICED BY A HUSBAND AND WIFE IN THE PRIVACY OF THEIR OWN HOME. Jim Crowe laws forbad the teaching African-Americans EVEN AFTER SLAVERY HAD BEEN ABOLISHED, and Blacks that broke these laws did frequently pay with their lives. Governor George Wallace of Alabama tried to block with his own body African American students who were granted the right to attend university in his state. Do the Saudi's treat their citizens this way? The Saudi statutes that you mentioned don't seem particularly unjust compared to our own legal traditions prior to the civil rights movement. No wonder your "teacher" has to hide his identity. He sounds like a hate monger to me. Look, in today's world, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. This guy is not part of the solution. Maybe he won't "rise above," but WE can.

[lrossmusic]

[quote] jbtiffee@netzero.net Out of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims most of them just want a good life for their children, food in their mouths and shelter over their heads, just like you and me. But our problem and the problem of the rest of the non-muslim nations is the devout muslims who actually read and study the Quran and don't just rap it up in a nice cloth and put it in the highest place of occupancy in the house.[/quote] [quote] LeiDeLi 1. It is not all Islam, it is the FUNDAMENTALISTS who are the problem.[/quote] Let me just get this straight. You guys believe that the vast majority of Muslims who are peaceful God fearing people like us simply ignore or conveniently misinterpret the Qu'ran which preaches hatred towards Jews and Christians in particular. And that this is the root of the terrorist problem having really nothing to do with land, oil, or our military support for Israel. It will be interesting for me to hear what the non-fundamentalists have to say about their not having studied the Qu'ran properly. The Friday after the attacks the President headed a church service here in Washington in which Christian, Jewish and Muslim clergy spoke. I wish that I could get the reaction of the Islamic minister to what you suggest. I will however present your case to some established authorities ASAP. Also I wonder what you think Bush thinks about your interpretation of the Qu'ran. Surely he must be aware of the passages you are referring to.

[In Christ]

Dan, man you really should just chill. :cool: Some real nasty things have been done in the "name" of christianity. None of which can be supported by the teachings of Christ, just as I stated before. But in contrast every nasty thing that has been done in the name of Allah. Can be backed up in the Quran. So the speechs about christianity are getting old. :) You really know nothing about Islam. ( All of this is said with respect) Except that Mohammed didn't write the Quran, that is true. It was written by his followers on whatever was at hand. Sometimes rocks were used, cloth, whatever was handy when he got one of his "revelations". And Mohammed himself did not read or write so he sure didn't do it. To give you an idea of just how incredible ( meaning "not credible") the Quran is imagine trying to coordinate this kind of "cataloging" system. :eek: Well they didn't do a good job, a while ago a dig was uncovered and in it were 4 different translations or versions of the Quran. Upon investigation they discovered that these four Qurans had been used to create the supposed "one true word of Islam". In these other Quran were some seriously opposing philosophies, so what they had done was to make one Quran from the 4 and then destroy all other versions, but the translator kept his. And were the ones found on the dig. "Learned separation of men and women from the Greeks"???? My friend that idea dates back to Genesis chapter 2, from the time of Moses. And if you didn't know this, Muslims follow the same God as the Jews and Christians, but the difference is that they have SERIOUS doctrinal differances. But all three of these religions follow after the God that is discribed as the "Creator of Heaven and Earth". The same God that created Adam and Eve. And for your information the "teacher" ( as you so sacastically refered to him) does not "hide" in fact the very reason he must be so careful is that he is very open. If he were to go to any of the many muslim friends homes abroad, and he does quite often because he truely loves them and only wishes to enrich their lives and they know this, and they heard that he spoke of Islam this way, (facts or not,)he would be killed. It is a fine line he walks because of what he knows, and a lot of these people ask questions about the violence they see commited in the name of the god they serve. He is there for these people, but if the "wrong" person knows who he is, well I already covered that. And ( smile is gone) for your information he has dedicated his whole life to the betterment of the lifes of these people in ways you will never know. Not just sitting around playing "arm-chair-know-it-all". When was the last time you volunteered to spend thousands of your own dollars to fly halfway around the world to feed, clothe, and educate people (and I don't mean preach I mean the 3 R's) at the risk of yours and your families life, in what has been labeled as the most dangerous place in the world. Anyone can bitch and moan. ;) Jamey

[rold]

:rolleyes: I think I'll second that call for a real Islamic expert now.. ;)

[Curve Dominant]

Some perspective from today's New York Times... [quote][b]November 20, 2001 FOREIGN AFFAIRS Today's News Quiz By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN NEW DELHI -- So, class, time for a news quiz: Name the second-largest Muslim community in the world. Iran? Wrong. Pakistan? Wrong. Saudi Arabia? Wrong. Time's up — you lose. Answer: India. That's right: India, with nearly 150 million Muslims, is believed to have more Muslim citizens than Pakistan or Bangladesh, and is second only to Indonesia. Which brings up another question that I've been asking here in New Delhi: Why is it you don't hear about Indian Muslims — who are a minority in this vast Hindu-dominated land — blaming America for all their problems or wanting to fly suicide planes into the Indian Parliament? Answer: Multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free-market democracy. To be sure, Indian Muslims have their frustrations, and have squared off over the years in violent clashes with Hindus, as has every other minority in India. But they live in a noisy, messy democracy, where opportunities and a political voice are open to them, and that makes a huge difference. "I'll give you a quiz question: Which is the only large Muslim community to enjoy sustained democracy for the last 50 years? The Muslims of India," remarked M. J. Akbar, the Muslim editor of Asian Age, a national Indian English-language daily funded by non-Muslim Indians. "I am not going to exaggerate Muslim good fortune in India. There are tensions, economic discrimination and provocations, like the destruction of the mosque at Ayodhya. But the fact is, the Indian Constitution is secular and provides a real opportunity for the economic advancement of any community that can offer talent. That's why a growing Muslim middle class here is moving up and, generally, doesn't manifest the strands of deep anger you find in many non-democratic Muslim states." In other words, for all the talk about Islam and Islamic rage, the real issue is: Islam in what context? Where Islam is imbedded in authoritarian societies it tends to become the vehicle of angry protest, because religion and the mosque are the only places people can organize against autocratic leaders. And when those leaders are seen as being propped up by America, America also becomes the target of Muslim rage. But where Islam is imbedded in a pluralistic, democratic society, it thrives like any other religion. Two of India's presidents have been Muslims; a Muslim woman sits on India's supreme court. The architect of India's missile program, A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, is a Muslim. Indian Muslims, including women, have been governors of many Indian states, and the wealthiest man in India, the info-tech whiz Azim Premji, is a Muslim. The other day the Indian Muslim film star and parliamentarian Shabana Azmi lashed out at the imam of New Delhi's biggest mosque. She criticized him for putting Islam in a bad light and suggested he go join the Taliban in Kandahar. In a democracy, liberal Muslims, particularly women, are not afraid to take on rigid mullahs. Followed Bangladesh lately? It has almost as many Muslims as Pakistan. Over the last 10 years, though, without the world noticing, Bangladesh has had three democratic transfers of power, in two of which — are you ready? — Muslim women were elected prime ministers. Result: All the economic and social indicators in Bangladesh have been pointing upward lately, and Bangladeshis are not preoccupied hating America. Meanwhile in Pakistan, trapped in the circle of bin Ladenism — military dictatorship, poverty and anti-modernist Islamic schools, all reinforcing each other — the social indicators are all pointing down and hostility to America is rife. Hello? Hello? There's a message here: It's democracy, stupid! Those who argue that we needn't press for democracy in Arab-Muslim states, and can rely on repressive regimes, have it all wrong. If we cut off every other avenue for non-revolutionary social change, pressure for change will burst out anyway — as Muslim rage and anti-Americanism. If America wants to break the bin Laden circles across the Arab-Muslim world, then, "it needs to find role models that are succeeding as pluralistic, democratic, modernizing societies, like India — which is constantly being challenged by religious extremists of all hues — and support them," argues Raja Mohan, strategic affairs editor of The Hindu newspaper. So true. For Muslim societies to achieve their full potential today, democracy may not be sufficient, but it sure is necessary. And we, and they, fool ourselves to think otherwise.[/quote][/b]

[Groovepusher Sly]

nevasleep is nuts, period. He needs to take his ass up out the Bronx, go over to Manhattan and help clean up, since he has so much time on his hands. Then after he does that he can pack his *uckin' bags and go crash a Bin-Laden's pad, I mean cave. Indiscriminate murder, theivery, vandalism and plain insanity can't be justified in a CIVILIZED world. So chill and go make yourself useful. Sly :mad:

[nevasleepnetzero.net]

hey Groovepusher,why all that toward me?I didn`t do anything,I just posted something from book I was reading.Why attack me?And for your info I`ve given to Red Cross,have you?

[nevasleepnetzero.net]

Oh Yeah and Sly ,for attacking me and I havn`t even done anything to you or America SUCK MY MOTHERFUCKIN DICK YOU PUNK ASS BITCH AND IF YOU GOT A PROBLEM PUSSY COME MEET ME AND WE CAN SETTLE IT PUNK!

[lrossmusic]

Some more perpectives from the Washington Post two weeks ago. (I already posted this on an earlier thread but since Curve brought up 'democracy' I thought I'd post it again.) [quote][b]"If we export capitalism without democracy, we breed anarchy and terrorism,"[/b][/quote] [quote] Benjamin Barber's Ideas on Capitalism and Conflict No Longer Seem So Academic By Megan Rosenfeld Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, November 6, 2001; Page C01 These are busier days for Barber, who is a chronically busy person. A book he wrote in 1995, "Jihad vs. McWorld", is one of the tomes that readers are turning to post-Sept. 11 to try to understand why and to ponder what's next. It's been on the New York Times paperback bestseller list recently, and a new printing of 40,000, with a fresh introduction, is coming from Ballantine shortly to meet the demand. Meanwhile, his new book, "The Truth of Power," has just been released. It's a memoir of his less-than-satisfying experience as a visiting intellectual in the court of President Clinton. But it's "Jihad vs. McWorld" that is prompting the interviews, talks and requests for op-ed pieces. In it, Barber describes how the cultural differences between tribalism -- ethnic and religious fundamentalism -- and global capitalism are (or were) headed inevitably for an explosion of violence. Both are threats to democracy, he argues, and thus intertwine to create the conditions and the motive for combustion. By "McWorld" he means not just the multinational corporations for whom national boundaries are more or less obsolete but also the American values wrapped in such low-culture packaging as pop music, movies, fast food and video games. "Jihad" is those forces who fear and oppose that modernism, people who see themselves engaged in "a holy struggle against something that is seen as evil," Barber says. To a television company like Star TV, beaming shows like "Dynasty" or "The Simpsons" across Asia via satellite is just business. But to an official of the Iranian government, "these programs, prepared by international imperialism, are part of an extensive plot to wipe out our sacred and religious values," in one of Barber's examples. Particularly in countries where separation of church and state is a remote concept, he says, the bulldozer of aggressive, American-style marketing is as threatening as an invading army. Barber, 62, is one of a small breed of scholars who strive to be "public intellectuals." He is powered by ideas and discussion, by the rough-and-tumble of vigorous debate. He is fully capable of using incomprehensible phrases like "identitarian determinance" and talking so fast that even his graduate students have to scribble furiously to keep up, but he has an infectious zest for the life of the mind. Drawing on anecdotes he tears out of newspapers and magazines, a broad range of reading and his own experience as a widely traveled, progressively educated fellow, he has come up with theories and concepts that have filled 13 books, including three collaborations and a novel. "Jihad vs. McWorld" was greeted with respectful reviews when it first appeared, but despite being translated into 10 languages, it did not achieve a readership that could be described as mass. The American Reporter called it "a groundbreaking work, an elegant and illuminating analysis of the central conflict of our times: consumerist capitalism versus religious and tribal fundamentalism." A reviewer in the San Francisco Chronicle said: "It's too bad . . . Barber sometimes writes in unreadable academese (what he himself calls 'futurological platitudes'), because he's sure got it nailed." Having written a work of political theory rather than prescription, Barber drew some complaints that his ideas for remedy were "starry-eyed" or would require legislation unlikely to be enacted in other countries. One of his harshest critics was the conservative Michael Novak, writing in the Wall Street Journal, who said Barber "has little feel for the depths and complexities of religion, and is also surprisingly innocent, for a political scientist, of the many, many modalities of ethnicity that are compatible with a vibrant democratic life." Novak also disdained Barber's critique of global capitalism and said he "frightens himself half to death by giving credence to mammoth metaphors of his own making." For 32 years, Barber taught at and ran the Walt Whitman Center for the Culture and Politics of Democracy at Rutgers University in New Jersey. He left it this year to take an endowed professorship at Maryland, where he teaches a graduate seminar and will be working on a new venture called the Democracy Collaborative. He splits his week between College Park and Manhattan, where his wife, Leah Kreutzer, a choreographer, and 10-year-old daughter live. "I never wanted to be an academic. I still don't," he says, laughing. "I wanted to be -- I know this sounds pretentious -- I wanted to be an intellectual. I wanted to be involved in the arts. I went into the academic world under the illusion that it was a place where people cared passionately about ideas, about teaching, about discourse and about reflecting critically. What I discovered was a world of small-minded, partisan professionals, many of whom were there because they couldn't figure out what else to do. So I created a life inside the academy that reflected the life I wanted to lead." That life has included writing and directing plays, getting involved in collaborations between universities and their non-university neighbors, and developing software. He's also working on another novel, a book of political theory, a new introduction to "Jihad vs. McWorld," several op-ed articles related to current events, and various lectures. He's the kind of person who can write on his laptop anytime he gets a couple of hours free, such as on his weekly train rides between Penn Station and New Carrollton. And no, he doesn't get much sleep (although he has a rollaway stashed in his office just in case he can't get to his local hotel room). The underlying theme in all his work is democracy -- how to strengthen it, export it, describe the variations found in different countries. Neither the extremists of "Jihad" nor the capitalists that make up "McWorld" are serving democracy, he argues, because both evade or ignore the process. "I said precisely that the war of Jihad versus McWorld, if it was not alleviated by global democracy, an international civic infrastructure, was likely to explode. These two sets of forces could not avoid clashing and exploding; they were going to create nothing but death and explosion unless we did this third thing, and we didn't. "The question is: Will we now? Will we now acknowledge the interdependence that has been demonstrated? Will we make interdependence not just a matter of AIDS and global warming and weapons destruction and terrorism, but will we make it a matter of global civic and political institutions? I think there are inducements that were not there before. "On September 10, when I talked about global democracy, people thought, 'What a quaint, charming utopian that guy Barber is.' On September 12, they were saying what a political realist that guy is." Barber talks about a new "declaration of interdependence," which acknowledges that "no one nation can experience prosperity and plenty unless others do, too." America is a reluctant power, he says, and in this reluctance it communicates indifference and arrogance to other nations. "We want to be loved, to be understanding, to be sensitive, whereas what the world wants from us is to use our power to construct a global system that will let them take care of themselves. They don't need our sympathy, they don't want our sensitivity, they want a fair system that gives them a fair shake. Our sentimentalism sometimes gets in the way. We want to be liked, you see what I'm saying? We are a very big elephant that thinks it's a large pussycat." Multinational corporations tend to prefer to operate in countries that impose few limits on their operations, Barber says. Those tend to be countries with anarchic, weak or corrupt governments, which also provide a fertile breeding ground for terrorists. Although in this country capitalism has thrived within the "container" of regulation and civil society, America has failed to export or promote similar restraints overseas. [b]"If we export capitalism without democracy, we breed anarchy and terrorism,"[/b] he says. "It's now a matter of national security. Part of the war on terrorism has to be to address the conditions that produce terrorism, and that has become a matter of necessity and not some intellectual vision of what a good world is. The hidden silver lining in this hideous, desperate terrorist act is the sense of what wonderful punishment for the terrorists -- if what they actually did was prompt us toward a more civic and democratic world. Imagine how upset they'd be!" Barber sees hope in the fact that the United States paid $582 million in 10-years-overdue United Nations dues and that the administration has backed off its effort to abandon the ABM treaty. But he reserves particular scorn for the purveyors of the scuzziest popular culture. Americans should take more seriously the objections heard in this country to the debasing of the culture, let alone the reactions of fundamentalist Muslims in far-off lands, he argues. "There are millions of people here who won't send their children to public school because they're so appalled by the culture they find there," says Barber, whose daughter attends a charter public school. "A lot of people find that what we produce in the name of making a buck is deeply offensive and corrupting to their children's values. We have to get a better fix on that. . . . I don't think it's the American state that offends people or makes them feel they are being colonized. They feel they are being colonized by Nike and McDonald's and by the garbage. And the worst is that we say, 'We're not colonizing you, we're just giving you what your people want.' "I mean, we don't even export the best of our own culture, as defined by serious music, by jazz, by poetry, by our extraordinary literature, our playwrights -- we export the worst, the most childish, the most base, the most trivial of our culture. And we call that American." The rest of the world doesn't know the United States is a nation of church- and temple-goers, he says, but thinks Americans are just "secular materialists." U.S. parochialism, as evidenced by a lack of interest in learning foreign languages and a failure to see ourselves as global citizens, has helped create the climate in which Arab youths applaud our deaths. Barber became an internationalist at the age of 12. He grew up in Greenwich Village, the younger son of two theater people. His father, Philip Barber, succeeded playwright Elmer Rice as the director of the Federal Theater Project in New York and helped develop the "Living Newspaper" concept of dramatizing current events. His mother, Doris Frankel, was a playwright who spent years writing radio soap operas like "Ma Perkins" and went on to craft many scripts for the TV series "All My Children" and "General Hospital." After their divorce, Barber's father (who went on to marry five more times) enrolled him in the Stockbridge School, a progressive coed boarding school started by Hans Maeder, a German socialist refugee. "Four years before Brown versus the Board of Education, this school had 10 black children in the student body of 100," Barber said. "They had Israelis and Arabs living together two years after the War of Independence; they flew the U.N. flag." Each day started with all students and faculty listening to 20 minutes of classical music in contemplative silence; each student was required to help maintain and repair the facility. They went on field trips to study the Tennessee Valley Authority, and a democratic decision-making process (subject to Maeder's veto) was employed. Barber, who graduated in 1956 and went on to become a trustee before the school folded in 1976, loved it. "For many of us, it was a home, and for some like me, it was a first home," he said in a school publication. He spent his first year of college in Switzerland at another now-defunct utopian institution: Albert Schweitzer College. Only 60 students, from a variety of countries, gathered to spend a year studying the theologian and doctor's ethical philosophy. From there he went to Grinnell College in Iowa, his father's home state, and spent a year at the London School of Economics before graduating from Grinnell. He got his PhD at Harvard University. "If I had my druthers -- like so many people I have a narcissistic, selfish side -- I would have spent my life in the theater," Barber says. "I love the theater. I love directing, and I love writing for the theater. But it pays lousy. But I guess the part of me that's a Methodist is committed to trying to construct a better life for all of us. I guess to that extent, I'm a moralist, I'm a citizen, and that part of me always pushed towards democratic theory." But that theatrical side (he takes pains to point out he is also a second cousin of Meredith Willson, composer of "The Music Man") is not so distant from the role of professor and lecturer. He clearly relishes all his activity and finds some consolation in being called on to explain a bit of the context of the events on Sept. 11. He has not gone to see the damage in Lower Manhattan. "I love New York. I grew up there," he says. "I know it's cowardly, but it would be like looking at the abused corpse of a dear loved one." But he reserves particular scorn for the purveyors of the scuzziest popular culture. Americans should take more seriously the objections heard in this country to the debasing of the culture, let alone the reactions of fundamentalist Muslims in far-off lands, he argues. "There are millions of people here who won't send their children to public school because they're so appalled by the culture they find there," says Barber, whose daughter attends a charter public school. "A lot of people find that what we produce in the name of making a buck is deeply offensive and corrupting to their children's values. We have to get a better fix on that. . . . I don't think it's the American state that offends people or makes them feel they are being colonized. They feel they are being colonized by Nike and McDonald's and by the garbage. And the worst is that we say, 'We're not colonizing you, we're just giving you what your people want.' "I mean, we don't even export the best of our own culture, as defined by serious music, by jazz, by poetry, by our extraordinary literature, our playwrights -- we export the worst, the most childish, the most base, the most trivial of our culture. And we call that American." The rest of the world doesn't know the United States is a nation of church- and temple-goers, he says, but thinks Americans are just "secular materialists." U.S. parochialism, as evidenced by a lack of interest in learning foreign languages and a failure to see ourselves as global citizens, has helped create the climate in which Arab youths applaud our deaths. [/quote]

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by jbtiffee@netzero.net: [b]When was the last time you volunteered to spend thousands of your own dollars to fly halfway around the world to feed, clothe, and educate people (and I don't mean preach I mean the 3 R's) at the risk of yours and your families life, in what has been labeled as the most dangerous place in the world. Anyone can bitch and moan. ;) Jamey[/b][/quote] Your post is well-meaning, so let me just clarify that I have flown half-way around the world on numerous occasions, not to "educate" people by preaching my own view of the world, but to educate MYSELF by listening to them and seeing their way of life first hand. I've learned to converse in several languages - not an expert in all of them, but I can get by - so I don't come across as some pompous American tourist who'd rather be pounding down Coronas on a cruise ship, dancing the Macarena and acting like a frat boy. These experiences have expanded my horizons greatly and have given me many thing, including a finely tuned "bullshit meter" that has been ringing like a fire alarm at some of the irresponsible drivel that's been posted on this thread. In terms of feeding the hungry, I give generously to charities who have the infrastructure necessary to feed the poor and care for the ill in places that I'm not going to be able to reach with my tourist visas. I know people from scores of countries, of almost every religion. I work with Moslems, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Shintos, Roman Catholics, Greek Catholics, and members of most of the Christian sects. I work with a guy from Uzbekistan. How many of you even HEARD of Uzbekistan prior to 9/11. I've entertained a broad range of international friends in my home. I've had dinner with them and with their families. I've been at their side at the hospital when trouble has knocked on their door. I've attended the weddings of Egyptians, Vietnamese, Koreans, Jews, Taiwanese, and many others. Perhaps, given where I live, I have a better opportunity for a cosmopolitain experience than some other Americans, so I feel that it's my responsibility to speak out when someone makes broad, disparaging, irresponsible remarks about a race, a nationality, or a religion. I'm sorry if that doesn't qualify as "chilling" in your book, but then Ghandi and MLK didn't exactly "chill" in the face on injustice, either. My compliments to you for seeking knowledge. You're doing the right things with your life. :)

[Groovepusher Sly]

nevasleep, Boy! Awfully SENSITIVE aren’t we? You make my point exactly. You started out by saying you “didn’t want ot argue”, however that’s exactly what you wanted to do. If it was not your intention you would not have mentioned it. You tried to make it seem like you only wanted intellectual quiet discussion. But a discussion or debate is a civil argument, in a debate you “argue your point”. You did want to open a debate, and , you did want argue you position. What you didn’t want, was to be ATTACKED! It doesn’t feel good to be attacked, does it? And, MY OH MY! What a reaction we get from some one who didn’t want to ARGUE!! You must be some kind of HOMOSEXUAL if you want me to suck your dick! Calm down, cause you may tell us more about yourself than you want us to know. ANYWAY. These forums are one of the best things to happen to our music community. I wish I had something like this when I was coming up. It’s alright to throw a topic out for discussion, but when your motives are so obviously transparent, don’t get mad if somebody calls you on it. Peace, Sly :cool:

[the stranger]

Not trying to argue? :D