Help Needed - Duran Duran "Hungry Like the Wolf" Patch

[denkom67]

My band just added the tune "Hungry Like the Wolf" to our set list for an upcoming gig, and my patch design skills seem to be woefully inadequate in coming up with a suitable patch for that burbling random arpegio. I came up with something I thought was somewhat in the neighborhood, but at rehearsal last week when I played the opening phrase my mates responded with a round of hearty laughter. One said the sound reminded him of Pac Man, and since we're an 80's cover band, I guess that's at least in the right ballpark. But not the authenticity I was shooting for.

 

Anyone have any tips or suggestions, or a patch they could share? My current rig is a Motif XS and a Dave Smith Poly Evolver. The patch I came up with is on the Motif, using two square wave oscillators and a 12 db low pass filter. I'd rather use the Evolver (I have a much easier time programming sounds from scratch on it), but haven't been able to figure out how to get it to respond to an arpegiated pattern from the Motif.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

[Mark Schmieder]

Matt,

 

Surely you aren't trying to play that part live -- either as individual notes or as a triggered step sequence or arpeggio?

 

You're clearly in a competing band -- which one? We're friendly and share personnel with other Bay Area 80's bands now and then, so I'm just joking about competition. I'd be glad to help out, but I need to know more first, as I have radically changed how I approach this song four times over the past five to six years.

 

Currently, I use a backing track for that part, pre-recorded in Digital Performer. I am using the software version of the PPG Wave synth from Waldorf, with a sort of detuned square wave patch. I like the PPG Wave because it's extremely dry, and this allows me to start with a good known base sound for adding the phasing effect. Most important though, is note length, which is why it's important to know whether you're triggering, playing live, or using backing.

 

For a dry/gated PWM sound, I use Factories 1984:001, set to 110/064 on/off velocity, note length = 0/013 (from Waldorf PPG Wave 2.V). These settings make a HUGE difference. I apply a newly-purchased analog modeled 1/8-note slow resonant phaser from SoundToys, but this is just a dumbing-down of what Nick Rhodes actually did, which involved combining several effects in sequence.

 

I can send you an MP3 via YouSendIt.com if you like, along with the MIDI file if you are using backing on stage. Just so long as you don't try to sell it for profit :-).

 

I was using the Popcorn patch in Dave Polich's Regenerator voice bank for the PLG150-AN card in the Motif-Rack ES before, but the PPG Wave comes much closer to the timbre and envelope of the original.

 

You probably know that Nick Rhodes used a Jupiter for that sound. I have Arturia Jupiter-8V, but my G4 iMac struggles with that VI, which is why I went for the PPG Wave at this time. The key though, is to use the right attack/release and a dry/gated patch (although you are effectively gating it by using short note lengths etc.).

 

It does sound like you are using an arpeggiated pattern from the Motif, which may not help, as it isn't a fully regular pattern (the Jupiters had a unique step sequencer with a semi-random element, and I think Nick may have triggered using block chords which he changed frequently, but in other interviews he says they took full advantage of the long step count of the Roland step sequencer alongside external gear for loop-back etc.).

[Mark Schmieder]

Oops, meant to add that we have a rare public gig next SAT in Walnut Creek at Betty's Bar (most of our gigs are private/corporate/weddings), if you want to check out another local band playing that song. Most 80's bands avoid doing that one due to its complexities. It's one of our favourites in the repertoire, and luckily it gets better crowd reaction than the others from DD (we wish the others went over better as we love DD more than almost any other 80's band).

[Mark Schmieder]

Sound-wise, you might also try one of the revised Mono Evolver presets, which should also load into the Poly Evolver:

 

C:114 Double4-Note

 

This patch is specifically designed for the arpeggio in "Rio", but might also work, at least as a starting point, for "Hungry Like the Wolf".

[denkom67]

Hi Mark,

 

Sorry for the delayed response; wasn't around much this weekend. Thanks for the excellent tips - I did know the patch was originally done on a Jupiter, but didn't know it was using a step sequencer. I always thought it was a random arpeggio. I'm still coming up to speed with learning how to program sounds on keyboards - I'm a piano player by background, and all my previous bands have been more rock/blues oriented and very SIMPLE for patches (piano, elecric piano, organ, and clav). I'm finding the 80's band thing to be a challenge for sure.

 

The band I'm in is called the 85's. Lame name, I know - that's the year we graduated from high school and we originally formed to play a reunion gig. We now play sporadically a small number of times a year - a holiday gig at the Sweetwater in Marin, some local festivals, and parties/weddings. I'd love to check your band out some time - we actually have a gig that night, but let me know when you're playing in the future! I have a gig coming up this Friday also in Walnut Creek, at Dan's Bar. I'm definitely the weak link in the band - all the other guys are pretty good players and play in other bands. I'm learning as I go and just glad they let me play with them.

 

I'd love to check out the MP3 and MIDI files if you wouldn't mind passing along - can send to my denkom@yahoo.com address.

 

Matt

[Mark Schmieder]

Oh, my memory may be a bit confused in terms of how "Hungry Like the Wolf" was done vs. how "Rio" was done. They didn't use quite the same approach. I think an external step sequencer was used for one but not the other.

 

The randomness as I recall was not "global" but simply enhanced a more regular pattern to humanise it and break up the monotony. But I do not have complete Jupiter4 or Jupiter8 specs at hand to see how this feature was implemented in detail.

 

My own implementation of the arpeggios in the two songs is semi-random. I listened carefully to match the pattern length, as that is key. But it would have been too much trouble, and ujnnecessary overkill, to match it note for note. The key is simply the pattern length and the relative up or down (higher or lower octave) direction of the line. It is simply providing atmospheric background, after all, vs. a harmonic foundation.

 

I chose the PPG Wave sound for "Hungry Like the Wolf" simply because I needed to quickly find a dry sound with a good pulse shape that would lend itself readily to being prematurely clipped by a short note length or pattern gate plug-in. It needed to be almost completely lacking in resonancce, and this was easier on the PPG Wave than with a traditional analog synth. Who cares if it's pure? Maybe I'll redo it later on with Arturia Jupiter 8V, once I get a more powerful computer. But I doubt I'll bother.

 

At first I thought maybe we had spoken before, as there's another recent forum member named Matt from the Bay Area who ran a Duran Duran tribute band called "Sing Blue Silver" (hope I got that right!) and who is in various other 80's-oriented projects. So it's a wild coincidence to have two Duran Duran loving Matts from the Bay Area show up as newbies just a couple of months apart!

[Mark Schmieder]

Oh yeah, just to clarify further, the goal is to make the arpeggio sound not be "in your face", as it sounds annoying otherwise. This in fact is why I ended up with the current approach, after three other iterations over the years.

 

What really amazes me is that Nick Rhodes came up with that sound in under two hours, and the song was finished in under a day.

 

For "Rio", I use a patch off of my Prophet '08. The arpeggio in that song is more lush, creating more of a wash behind the other parts. It's actually quite a bit different than the one used in "Hungry Like the Wolf", which accentuates that hiccupy female vocal accent that comes in now and then.

 

Duran Duran are geniuses. I didn't appreciate them as much at the time as I do now. I tend to like songs more (even ones I hated when they came out) once I learn how to play them, as I gain a bigger appreciation for what went on in writing/arranging them.

[denkom67]

Thanks for the great tips Mark - the Duran Duran songs sound deceptively simple, but I have a new-found appreciation for them after trying to program the patches.

 

Definitely funny on the other Bay Area Matt newbie - I'll have to keep my eyes open for his posts.

 

Matt

[Analogaddict]

The forum timing is - as always - impeccable! just five minutes ago, I loaded "Hungry Like The Wolf" into my iPod to learn it. The gear I chose includes a macbook with the PPG plug, two Poly Evolver racks and a Motif ES rack..

[Mark Schmieder]

I just relistened to both my backing and the original, and came much closer than I expected to the sound. The notes aren't quite the same as the original arpeggio, but I don't think it really matters, as it follows the basic pattern. I just sent the MP3 and MIDI to two forum members a few minutes ago.

 

As my project annotation is part of a larger document that annotates all of my 80's cover projects, I didn't send that though. I figured the arp was the main thing of interest, for which I used the PPG Wave 2.V plug-in from Waldorf.

 

I used G-Force/G-Media's Virtual String Machine for the string pad. That is by far my most-used plug-in at this point, and I've been re-tracking a lot of material using it of late. Sometimes I throw in a bit of IK Multimedia's CSR Plate reverb plug-in.

 

I'm using SoundToys PhaseMistress for analog-style phasing on parts that call for it. It really is the first phaser I've ever owned, in software or hardware, that is flexible or accurate enough to almost exactly emulate any phasing I can find in an 80's recording. And I didn't even know about it until last month!

[denkom67]

Mark, thanks a ton for sending on the files - I'm having a crazy week and haven't had a chance to check them out yet but will early next week. I just got your email this morning about the gig - check your email and shoot me a message if you're still interested in coming tonight and I'll add you to the guest list - it would be fun to meet another 80's cover band player.

 

Matt

[Madtux]

Hey Mark,

David here from Erasure-esque/For The Masses and of course the now departed Sing Blue Silver - DD Tribute Band.

 

My two cents for what it's worth.

 

When we did Hungry I used an old Juno soft synth and really just a nice square wave with a very short attack and a tiny release. I kept it very clean as it can get lost easily in the mix when playing live. The sweeping synth I use my Roland SH-201 which was perfect for that sound. I also recorded the part and then used backing tracks off of an ipod for live.

 

I also grabbed the laughing sampling and triggered it at the intro from my Trition Extreme which pretty much got everyone going.

[Mark Schmieder]

Aw, that's cheating! :-)

 

Our new female singer doesn't have the laughing part down yet, but the sub we used for the past two years (her main band is Fast Times) was AWESOME at it -- though we all had to avoid eye contact to avoid giggling!

 

Yeah, as for the arp sound, you took the same approach I did. I just got lucky that there was a PPG Wave patch that was perfect, so I didn't have to spend time on that aspect; just the envelope and the attack/release. But the patch does matter, as I had earlier used a different one with the same fast attack/release and short note length, and it wasn't dry or "clean" enough.

[Jonathan Hughes]

The important question is whether they do the moaning part in the middle (although if you're doing the single version rather than the album version, it's not an issue).

[Mark Schmieder]

We do the LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG 12" version, which ROCKS!!!!!

 

There is "extra moaning" in the bridge on that version :-).

 

We have always succeeded in getting our female vocalists, even subs, to do the moaning part. The laughing part is harder because the count is awkward, and everyone knows singers can't count :-).

[Madtux]

I've seen DD enough times to know that the laugh at the beginning is always a sample. So when we did in Sing Blue Silver we did it the same.

 

I plan to get the Arturia Jupiter 8V soft synth soon so I can recreate most of the duran sounds from the first 3 albums perfectly. We have been talking about getting the Duran Tribute band going again so it might be necessary.

 

Of course the funny thing about all these sounds that we all take soooooo long to recreate is that 98% of the crowds we play to don't have a clue if it's different or exactly the same. They drink their cocktails and dance and have fun. I've done versions of songs that sound nothing like the originals and have had people come up to me and say they loved it, it was exactly the same. But it is always nice to wow yourself.

[Mark Schmieder]

Actually, our experience has been the opposite, as people come up to us at every gig and thank us for nailing all the details. But you're right that the majority of the crowd doesn't notice. Still, those one or two that do, in some cases, are the ones that as a result hire us for weddings and corporate/private events.

 

As for Arturia, time your purchase right, and you can have the full suite for a song. In fact, you just missed a two-for-one offer that probably ended over the weekend. But I got the V-Collection for around $360 or even less, then resold my then-redundant individual licenses for moog modular V and CS80V for probably around $200 total. Not bad, huh?

 

One of these days, I'll have a computer that can run all of them. I'm rather anxious at the moment, waiting for Apple's fall product announcements. The rumour is they are going to release a mid-priced Mac finally. If not, I'll be stuck between a rock and a hard place, either biting the bullet and throwing tons of money at an overkill MacPro, or accepting the glarey screen of the new iMacs and also the continued firewire limitations. The anxiety is because of the huge budgeting differential, and the fact that other expenses are happening haphazard, so I may not be able to afford a MacPro anyway.