Interactive Circle of Fifths site for those who need it.

[Guest]

Link from another forum:

 

http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/

 

 

B37

 

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[Guest]

I'm just curious if any of the 30+ people who viewed this, found the link helpful at all or should I delete it?

 

B37

 

 

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[yorgatron]

i put it in my favorites,thanks!

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Yeah, I looked at it. It seems to be about as useful as "The Bass Grimoir" - speaking as a bassist. I don't find myself using a lot of scales outside of major, minor and mixolydian.

 

This is the first COF diagram that I've seen that actally attaches the diatonics to the circle. It's a relationship that I've proabably have known all along, but seeing it graphically represented was quite informative.

[Guest]

Thanks for the input. I know I need it!,(the site info.), but I also realize there is a plethora of pros on here. And as a former elec. bass player I used much the same as Frank M. Back hacking at the keys now with a commitment to myself to learn everything I can.

 

B37

 

 

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[alvin13]

As a noobie I've downloaded and will study at my leisure. Many thanks Alvin

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

You can always come back to the dark side, B37.

[Guest]

 

 

HaHa, love to Frank, but an irreparable rotator-cuff injury killed that - I can't get down to first position, even on a short-scale, without much effort and pain. Just tried "air acoustic bass", oh hell no, that's not an option either. I switched from guitar to bass back when I first heard Stanley on "Earth Juice" on RTF's "Where Have I Known You Before"

 

Maybe some day if cloning becomes a reality here in the US, I can get new parts. My physical therapist had a good analogy. "You know how your favorite pair of bluejeans finally develops a big hole in the knee", "well you just can't, (at which point he demonstrated), fold the top down onto the bottom". So I have a hole in the rear part of rotator cuffs in both shoulders actually.

 

Truly, what a long strange trip it's been.

 

 

 

 

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[Joe Muscara]

Thanks for this, it is quite good. Reading the instructions was educational as well. I can see using it while composing.

[Byrdman]

I have never seen anybody notate chords from the start of a mode before. Is that accepted pedagogically anywhere? I really don't think it works because the chords no longer have the same tendencies as they do when named relative to scales.

 

Also I think most people would object to the starting note of a mode being called the "tonic". The tonic of the dorian mode starting on D (for example) is still C.

[mcgoo]

... I think most people would object to the starting note of a mode being called the "tonic". The tonic of the dorian mode starting on D (for example) is still C.

 

huh? Is that really true? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just confused. If I write something in D Dorian, why wouldn't D be tonic? Please clarify for my "E-A & the other one" mentality.

[moj]

The modes are based on their relationships of each scale degree (ie. whole steps & half-steps) that define the seven individual modes. A "tonic" in dorian is established only by the scale degrees. For example, w-h-w-w-w-h-w = D E F G A B C D.

 

Major and minor doesn't apply in the strict sense with the modes. Though, the Ionian and Aeolian modes are often called major and minor with respect in diatonic theory.

[mcgoo]

hmmm... ,maybe I'm dense, 'cause I still don't understand. Bear with an old guy a minute if you will. I learned modes back in High School (really really long time ago), and know them... well, I might stumble on a few, but anyway, I still don't get why a D, in D Dorian wouldn't be considered tonic. If the tonality of a piece of music resolves to D, why would the fact that the 6th is Major as opposed to Minor one make the piece in C? I understand that it would be written with no sharps or flats, which would suggest C Maj or A min, but wouldn't the tonality of the piece make D the tonic or the root... and is the root the same thing as the tonic?

 

I can't believe I'm asking all these questions. Way too academic for me, but ya got me intrigued.

[Musicale]

This at first read looks great, a lot of info to digest, and presentation of relationships in a systematic way. This guy obviously put some time into this. Reminds me of the periodic table. Thanks,

 

Regards,

[Dave Horne]

The visualization of the various keys into a circle has been around for centuries though at least one well known modern theorist has a different opinion on its importance.

 

Allen Forte: It should be emphasized here that the circle of 5ths is a visual convenience, a mnemonic device, nothing more. It does not represent fully any important structural aspect of tonal music, ....

 

From my point of view, there are only 12 major keys at the keyboard (14 or 15 on paper) and each major key only has seven diatonic triads. Learning this inside and out doesn't take a great deal of time. Referring constantly to a web site to learn what you should already have under your finger tips, so to speak, seems like an unnecessary waste of time.

 

If you learn the basics and learn them well, you'll have no need for all those great little ... add ons.

[Byrdman]

hmmm... ,maybe I'm dense, 'cause I still don't understand. Bear with an old guy a minute if you will. I learned modes back in High School (really really long time ago), and know them... well, I might stumble on a few, but anyway, I still don't get why a D, in D Dorian wouldn't be considered tonic. If the tonality of a piece of music resolves to D, why would the fact that the 6th is Major as opposed to Minor one make the piece in C? I understand that it would be written with no sharps or flats, which would suggest C Maj or A min, but wouldn't the tonality of the piece make D the tonic or the root... and is the root the same thing as the tonic?

 

I can't believe I'm asking all these questions. Way too academic for me, but ya got me intrigued.

 

Actually they are all excellent questions and certainly questions that have intrigued composers for over a hundred years.

 

But the basic idea is not theoretical at all. Play a tune and work out which note in the scale it is using (and if it only uses a limited set of notes there may be multiple possible scales) sounds like the center "of rest". That's the tonic. Usually if you are in a mode the starting note is not this note (unless you are in Ionian mode of course).

 

Alternatively find a note that wants to move upwards by a semitone the strongest. That's going to be the leading note and the note it goes to is the tonic.

 

Or find the pair of chords that sound strongest together and those will be the V-I for the tonic (though this assumes that the tune is not moving through different keys with no strong central key)

 

If the starting point of your mode is the center of rest you really should treat it as an unorthodox scale rather than trying to embed it in a classical scale. Otherwise you end up trying to force fit traditional harmony into a situation where it does not apply, and that just causes confusion.

 

The principle that always applies is the idea of voice leading - in other words the tendency of notes to want to move somewhere (or not)with various strengths. Harmony is just a working out of that idea. If you are in a non-conventional scale you need to work out what chords are implied by the tendencies of the notes of that scale.

 

One way to make this work is to add the leading note of the start note as a melody note - if in Phrygian for example (in key of C, so starting on E), add D# to the scale so that you get a strong tendency to E. You now do have E as the tonal center but its not really Phrygian mode anymore.

 

So the idea of the chart of notating chords based on the starting note of the mode is an interesting one - it just is not conventional and I think for people for whom this chart is most useful will be misled by it.

 

(Sorry for the length of this reply. Tried to shorten but can't manage to express this more succintly)

 

 

 

 

[richwhite9]

The visualization of the various keys into a circle has been around for centuries though at least one well known modern theorist has a different opinion on its importance.

 

The 'circles' are as good a way as working through new scales, riffs, comps, and changes as any. The implied reuse of the two key signatures while learning a new one when workng through changes like I IV V is pretty efficient.

[mcgoo]

Play a tune and work out which note in the scale it is using (and if it only uses a limited set of notes there may be multiple possible scales) sounds like the center "of rest". That's the tonic. Usually if you are in a mode the starting note is not this note (unless you are in Ionian mode of course).

1st of all, thanks for the detailed explanation. I guess I've always thought of modes, perhaps incorrectly, as alternatives to the traditional Maj /min scales. As an example, a lot of rock tunes use use the dom 7th, in what would otherwise be Ionian, or a Maj key. To me that's Mixolydian. If the chord changes to a riff are G-C-F-C-G & I feel G as the resting point, I'll think of it as tonic & the key as G Mixolydian. But since the scale would have no sharps or flats, would it be more correctly considered to be in C, even though the resting point is G? Would it be more correct to write it in G Maj with an accidental written everytime an F is used?

 

I don't think any of this is really really going to change my way of thinking much, but for whatever reason, it's pretty interesting.

[Musicale]

Certainly the cycle or a graphic depiction of it is not essential for musicality, however it provides a organization that can aid those that are analytical in nature and do not have the natural talent of those that may have it under their hands by nature.

 

Regards

[Dave Horne]

There are only 12 major keys at the keyboard (14 or 15 on paper).

 

In major: triads built on scale degrees 1,4 and 5 are major in flavor; triads built on scale degrees 2,3 and 6 are minor in flavor; and the triad built on scale degree 7 is diminished. If this is bewildering to you, don't consult that cute little add on, consider buying a music theory text book and spending the next few months reading and rereading the first several chapters.

 

If you have to consult a chart to know what the name of a triad built on scale degree 2 in D major is, perhaps you need to spend a tad more time on the basics.

 

Since there are only 12 major keys (at the keyboard) and there are seven days in the week, simply spending time on two major keys per day will result in learning this in .... almost no time.

 

This ain't brain surgery.

[richwhite9]

I have never seen anybody notate chords from the start of a mode before. Is that accepted pedagogically anywhere?

 

The Dorian mode is derived from the major scale one whole tone below its tonic. The C Dorian mode is derived from the Bb major scale. The tonic is minor and is C Minor not B flat.

 

http://www.jazclass.aust.com/lessons/jt/jt14.htm#04

 

A decent explanation of scales versus modes and tonics versus key centers.