Sound advice needed for playing larger outdoor venues

[Ross Brown]

Last night we played a carnival. We were on a decent covered, lighted stage that folded out of a tractor trailer. Even had a dressing room. Nice set up.

 

I used my big amp (Carvin 1200 W; 1X18 and a 4X10 cabinets) and had plenty of power (I was set at 4).

 

I think my problem was partly due to the fact that I had spent the weekend at a blues festival where some very good musicians were playing. The bass players at the festival sounded great. After we were done, I could not tell you how we sounded. I felt like it was nothing good compared to the festival players. My wife is our sound check person and I/we trust her. When we are at other shows, she and I hear the same things. She said we sounded fine and that the bass sound was as good as what we heard at the festival. She helps us with our adjustments with hand signals during the show (since we control everything from the stage). We were set up on the third base line of a baseball field and were LOUD to a point just past the edge of the infield, then the sound faded into the carnival noise. That was appropriate for the venue.

 

On stage, the sound was crap. I originally had my rig out front because I was sure that the sound would get trapped in the covered stage. The guitarist was sure that I needed to move it back so the drummer and he could hear me. I moved it back. During sound check it was obvious that it needed to move out front. ^%$#$&*!! We moved it.

 

Can the folks here that are experienced playing loud (outside/large venue; not a bar) offer suggestions? I felt like a bass monitor would help so I could put the big speakers out in front of me and have a better control of the sound I hear. This venue probably should have had a real sound person running a board, but it didnt.

 

Sorry for the long post, just looking for some suggestions for playing bigger shows. Also, I quickly remembered that at these volumes, everything, I mean everything, comes through the speakers! I had to be real careful about muting strings.

 

[DavidMPires]

I played a couple marquees lately, I tend to find that if you are using a pa, you don't need that much sound, have your amps on low volume and bring everything up through monitors, that's the way that works best for me.

[b5pilot]

I played a couple marquees lately, I tend to find that if you are using a pa, you don't need that much sound, have your amps on low volume and bring everything up through monitors, that's the way that works best for me.

 

+1. A lot of people think because its a large venue that you have to crank up your amps and spread them out across the stage.

No you don't.

[The Bear Jew]

Set up as you would for a regular gig, and let the PA do the heavy lifting. If you don't have someone to run sound for you or a PA, playing a big outdoor event can be really tough. PA support is really vital for those outdoor things.

 

Without getting all technical (because I can't), you'll find that sound acts funny in wide open spaces, and, while some sounds can carry to the audience, others will not.

 

If you have to struggle through without monitors or a significant PA, the best you can hope to do is hear yourself and your bandmates so that you can actually enjoy the playing experience and play well.... so... set up like you usually would at a rehearsal or regular gig.

[Danzilla]

Each of the past two Saturdays, I've played at an outdoor festival.

The first one, they provided backline and told me to leave me amp, as they have all the amps mic'ed and set the way they want them. Not wanting to come off as a prima donna, I try it there way. When its our turn, I look at the amps- Kustom. Not vintage tuck'n'roll, modurn SS combos. Our guitarist nicely says he's going to use his amp. i wish I had said the same. Lots of mids. Took a few songs (sound check? no time for that!) to fool around and get a decent tone out of it. Sounded boxy on stage; could barely hear the guitarist at all unless I walked over to his side of the stage (which was a decent size, but crowded with all the backline, monitors, wires, fans, etc.) We played pretty well, though the singer got nervous when after about 3 songs, most of the people had left. Well, not really left, but the sun had broken out and they were moving to the side inot the shade; but we didn't know that. Which leads to the other "problem": we're a pop/rock band, and were put in between old style country/southern gospel acts. Probably would have been a better fit to put us later in the day; then again, some of the rock bands later on got rained out when a lightning storm hit. At least we got to play. And while the sound on stage wasn't great, we videotaped it, and it wasn't bad out front.

 

This last Saturday, the festival was on a HUGE (IMO) stage at the Carroll County Ag Center. The sound company (Liquid Audio Productions) had been in contact with the promoters & bands for months, getting stage sets & requirements in advance. We were the first act to go on, so we had a little extra time with the sound guys & gals. I saw one of the other bands had a stack up already (Mesa 400+ head, Trace Elliot 2x10, 2 Mesa 1x15), so I asked if they wanted me to bring my extension cabinet or not; they said they prefer not to. So I just used the Phil Jones Six Pak, and they took the amp's DI out. Trying to "compensate", I did crank up the master to 9 or so. We sounded great (for us)- it's nice to have a bunch of people ask when we'll have a cd out because they'd definitely buy it. Everyone could hear each other just enough; people out front (and off to the sides- big field area) could hear us, too. Only really loud if you were right in front of the stage. I love seeing all the cones and their excursion on the Six Pak when it's cranked - yet still pretty clean. And I got to tell how it sounded out front, as the bassist after us had asked if he could use my amp (with his Carvin 6 string).

 

So what am I trying to say with all this? Similar to David- get just enough sound for the stage, and let the PA carry the weight. Be nice to the sound guys (especially if you don't have your own) and work WITH them. While it is important to have "your sound" or something you are comfortable with, it's most important that the audience hears it right.

[Ross Brown]

So if we continue to book these outdoor/big events we need good PA support. I presume that we would hire it out unless we get real busy. What is a typical cost for this, in your experiences? Assuming they bring the equipment and run it for the whole gig. I know it is a tough question so answer whatever question you have an answer to...

 

[DavidMPires]

That will depeend alot of the venue, how many di's you need. (they usually don't want the band providing di's or mic's) How many watts you need on pa for the crowd and how many for monitoring, usually a company runs with different power amps for this.

 

I don't think that will cost you the world, and also if you are PA savvy you can hire of a studio use it for a day and bring back the day after. I usually tend to ask the venue if need to bring a PA and add that on top of our fee so we don't have to fork out any money.

[jcadmus]

I had similiar experience recently -- we did an outdoor show and the stage sound was awful.

 

The PA was miniscule, so we were relying on the backline to provide the instrument sound -- bad move.

 

Even though we weren't pushing too hard, the stage sound was really rotten.

 

Next time, I'm going with CMDN's advice -- keep the backline low and let the (REAL) PA do the heavy lifting.

[Mr. Bizarro]

So, what kind of PA setup would be suitable for a small-to-medium outdoor venue? I'm thinking of investing in a PA system of my own, and I'd like to have the option of playing outdoor gigs. I'm wondering about the size/number of speakers, wattage, pre-amp/power-amp/mixer, that kind of thing. All the outdoor gigs I've done so far were with a brass band, so no PA to speak of, except sometimes for soloists.

[DavidMPires]

I'd go with two 1x15 bins for the floor and two 1x12 for tops, then a monitor for each muso, with exception made to brass sections where a monitor for all of them is ok.

 

Two power amps matching the cabs, one that works ok only with the bins or the tops, so your pa is as versatile as possible, and you can play up with the monitors as you wish depending on stage stage and needs. Finally you also want a amp just for the monitors.

 

As mixers goes i'd go with 16 channels always better to have more than you need, and with a decent stereo signal so you can plug your ipod or a laptop if you are putting music between your sets.

 

[alexclaber]

Outdoors I'd be using two to four times as many subs as you would indoors in a similar space. For tops you don't really need any more output than in a venue with the audience at a similar distance.

 

If you're thinking of sorting out a PA for your own use I'd take the DIY route. A pair of Titan 48 subs and a pair of OmniTop 12 cabs - www.billfitzmaurice.com - the Titan 48s are horn-loaded 15" subs with similar output to typical 2x18"s. And multiple Wedgehorn monitors. You can run the tops of one channel of the amp, the subs off the other channel and then have a separate amp for the monitors. Don't bother with stereo, no point for PA use. And always group your subs together, don't split them.

 

Alex

[tucsonbassplayer]

Outdoors it is all about the PA and of course the sound tech. The system just has to be able to support it. All you can do is cross your fingers that the tech likes the lows. A lot of guys don't so it is always a good idea to have your girl friend help him. Because we know how the ladies like the "low end".

[Mr. Bizarro]

Cool, thanks for the info. Of course, it all depends on what musical/financial situation I find myself in next.

[...]

Set up as you would for a regular gig, and let the PA do the heavy lifting. If you don't have someone to run sound for you or a PA, playing a big outdoor event can be really tough. PA support is really vital for those outdoor things.

 

Without getting all technical (because I can't), you'll find that sound acts funny in wide open spaces, and, while some sounds can carry to the audience, others will not.

 

If you have to struggle through without monitors or a significant PA, the best you can hope to do is hear yourself and your bandmates so that you can actually enjoy the playing experience and play well.... so... set up like you usually would at a rehearsal or regular gig.

 

You're funny in wide open spaces.

[Davo-London]

Used a Mackie SWA1501 subs coupled with SRM450 heads at a recent wedding. Oh my what a fantastic PA. Really projected well outside. Even with a simple ipod plugged in. The neighbours appreciated it I'm sure. Don't ask me what Amp we were using I don't know.

 

Davo

[The Bear Jew]

Set up as you would for a regular gig, and let the PA do the heavy lifting. If you don't have someone to run sound for you or a PA, playing a big outdoor event can be really tough. PA support is really vital for those outdoor things.

 

Without getting all technical (because I can't), you'll find that sound acts funny in wide open spaces, and, while some sounds can carry to the audience, others will not.

 

If you have to struggle through without monitors or a significant PA, the best you can hope to do is hear yourself and your bandmates so that you can actually enjoy the playing experience and play well.... so... set up like you usually would at a rehearsal or regular gig.

 

You're funny in wide open spaces.

 

I'm a frickin' riot in closed-in areas, too.

[BenLoy]

As long as there aren't awful things happening with the sound (EG: each bass drum hit generating a massive BLOOOOOOM that rings for no less than 1.5 seconds) I count myself lucky.

[moot]

So if we continue to book these outdoor/big events we need good PA support. I presume that we would hire it out unless we get real busy. What is a typical cost for this, in your experiences? Assuming they bring the equipment and run it for the whole gig. I know it is a tough question so answer whatever question you have an answer to...

 

Hey Ross -

 

I have been in 2 showcase bands that actually recruited a sound man as a full member. We all lumped bass bins and helped him set up. It worked for us.

 

A good way to find somebody is to throw a benefit for a local charity and ask until you find someone who is willing to donate their time. With any luck they have decent enough equipment and a good attitude and you can work with them long term.

[Juancarlin]

Last night we played a carnival. We were on a decent covered, lighted stage that folded out of a tractor trailer. Even had a dressing room. Nice set up.

 

I used my big amp (Carvin 1200 W; 1X18 and a 4X10 cabinets) and had plenty of power (I was set at 4). ...

 

 

I've played recently at a street event in a stage that seems to fit exactly the description you gave. Same one with folding stage, dressing room and all. Did it had some lighting fistures in the box's edge too?

 

We had... however, a large PA. Small Flying points kind with about 6 or 8 subs on each side, and a 24ch pa. A Yamaha digital, by the way. Sweet.

 

We were told not to bring amplification. The backline provided TWO Mesa Boogie 4x12's and a couple Triple Rectifier heads for the guitar (we used only one, since it is a quartet-plus-singer, drums, percussion, 1 guitar and bass) For the bass the provided a 1001 GK and an Ampeg 4x10 cab, which was, very likewise, located at the back of the covered part of the stage, besides the drums.

 

It seems the shape of the thing (besides having a very low ceiling) is not helpful at all with it, we had only a few minutes to check before starting, and it was either a muddy rumble or the bass would get totally covered up by the loud drums of my friend Omar. What we had to do was put on the floor the rack containing the G-K head, and finding a chair, then "seating" the 4x10 on the chair, angled up to my ears, using a DI box with he direct signal from the bass going to the PA, and the parallel output of the DI box to the G-K head, then eq' ing to compensate enough to make myself heard on stage without getting in the middle of anyone, and still sound like a bass. Was a few minutes headache, but had to solve it that way.

 

In theory, and always depending on how loud the others get (in this band the guitar likes it real loud.. wait a minute, only in THIS band? ) but IMHO, if it's outdoors plan on using the double of what you'd use indoors, and that would be enough, AS LONG AS you have a somewhat reliable PA. Levels on stage are real important to be kept at a decent, non overwhelming level. I used to play with a bass guy (me on guitar) who was VERY strict at this, and I feel I've learned a lot from it. One of my most valuable lessons.

 

I have now the Hartke 200 for small to medium venues, and the Fender BXR Dual 400 for larger venues, which handles a dual parallel 400W, enough for a 1x15 and a 4x10 cabs, which SHOULD be enough. More than that, I guess, is either a large arena (proper backline and stage monitoring should be provided) or a crazy outdoors situation without PA.

 

 

By the way, the lovely person who sleeps by my side.. wants to ask us all which is the kind of instrument/player us bass players find less obnoxious/bothersome to play with. Seems like Guitar (except several well-counted exceptions, ain't it JC?) is not on the list

[...]

I played a big outdoor event tonight. Great show, great crowd, great food. Can't lose with that combination.

 

I used the Markbass + Aguilar rig again tonight. I could have got by with my Mesa Boogie Walkabout Scout. The PA did all the work.

[Nicklab]

I've played a few outdoor gigs over the years. And it is all about the PA. Regarding that? Get a pro soundman to handle the PA and let him make the judgement regarding what kind of setup to do for the FOH speakers.

 

But it was my first outdoor festival back in 1994 that really showed me how things should be done for the stage mix. I was able to play that gig with a tiny Trace Elliot combo amp and a DI, and it sounded great.

 

The soundman is going to mic and DI everything for the FOH mix. From there, you need to balance amp volume, drum volume and monitors the way you would with any other gig. But in this case the monitor mix is more crucial since you're not going to get the bounce that you're accustomed to at an indoor venue. My personal preference is for vocals to be in the wedges, and the instruments (bass, guitar, kick, snare, etc) to be in the sidefills.

 

The outdoor stages can certainly vary in terms of acoustics. If you're in some kind of a bandshell, the acoustics might be more favorable. You're in something of an enclosed space at least. But I've also done shows on a flatbed trailer that was turned into a stage, and the sound just flies out and doesn't bounce back at all. That can be really disorienting. If you've got decent monitoring in place that can minimize that effect. But if you've got minimal monitoring try to turn the amps inward for the benefit of your bandmates.

[Ross Brown]

So if we continue to book these outdoor/big events we need good PA support. I presume that we would hire it out unless we get real busy. What is a typical cost for this, in your experiences? Assuming they bring the equipment and run it for the whole gig. I know it is a tough question so answer whatever question you have an answer to...

 

Hey Ross -

 

I have been in 2 showcase bands that actually recruited a sound man as a full member. We all lumped bass bins and helped him set up. It worked for us.

 

A good way to find somebody is to throw a benefit for a local charity and ask until you find someone who is willing to donate their time. With any luck they have decent enough equipment and a good attitude and you can work with them long term.

 

We are doing an SPCA benefit in September. The sound guy may fit this bill. I played with him a few years ago (he is alos a guitarist/bass player). Thanks

[InakiR]

As someone that works in professional shows, my advice has to be to rent gear out instead of buying it. That way you don't have to deal with transport, servicing and storage.

 

At the same time its hard to say what to buy because it depends on the venues you're playing. I guess its better to overshot and you can always turn it down. But are you playing "speakers on a stick" size venues where some Mackie self powered speakers and subs will work, or are you playing venues where you'll need a cluster or line array system? There are good mid-sized self contained solutions out there and even though I usually hate Mackie, those are good and pretty reliable.

 

As for amps on stage, turn them down, unless you absolutely need it turned up to create a unique sound (in which case most real sound engineers will put you in an iso box of turn the cabinets around to face the back), you should let the monitors and PA do the work.

Find yourself a sound guy to squezee some info and advice from. I'm really a lighting guy but have a degree in Electroacustical Design and did a loooot of sound. So feel free to pester me with questions

[InakiR]

Dude! You live in PA? Clair Bros is there, give them a call they'll help you out I'm sure. At the very least they'll give you good advice.