Point to Point Wiring

[soggybomb]

Whenever I read amp reviews, often compliments are given for point to point wiring. What exactly makes point to point wiring superior? Is there anything that suggests that point to point wiring is better than a really high-quality, well-designed p.c. board? Can't a high-quality p.c. board ensure more tonal consistency amplifier to amplifier than a point to point job?

[RobRose]

I suppose it's all part of the "old way must be better" mindset that some amp buyers have. I know mine are point-to-point wired and they sound terrific, but I'll be damned if I know if that has anything to do with it...

[miroslav]

P-to-P is better than many of the mass-produced PCB's, and since most of the components on those PCB's are assembly/machine placed and soldered...there is more chance of poor build

P-to-P is a by-hand, slow manufacturing process that is visually inspected per/component.

 

Plus...the cheaper, thinner PCB's are more prone to stress failures and effects of excessive heat. The thin traces can fail easier than solid wires used in P-to-P.

 

That said, there are some very high-end amps that are PCB designs and that will rival any P-to-P amp on construction quality and durability.

 

My Dr. Z and Top Hat amps are P-to-P...but my THD Flexi is mostly PCBs, but man, I opened it up and was blown away by the build quality!

I has big, thick PCB's and is built like a tank from end to end...I would say even more durable looking than some P-to-P amps I've seen.

 

So it's an amp to amp thing...

 

[Caevan O'Shite]

Yeah, a good PCB amp is gonna be better than a bad PTP amp- it may seem that this should be obvious, but apparently it isn't with many people.

 

Double-sided, through-hole soldered, extra thick heavy-duty mil-spec standard printed circuit boards are extremely reliable and consistent, if well designed and built. True "point-to-point" wiring can resemble a rats-nest snarl of wires, will be inconsistent from one amp to the next, and requires the building to be as much of an "art" as anything to achieve repeated results.

 

It's poor quality, consumer-grade one-sided PCBs with thin foil traces and horrendously sloppy workmanship (open a few Peaveys from the '80s and '90s for just one of many big-name examples of CRAP work like I describe) that give PCB amps a bad name. You don't want tube-sockets, in/out jacks, and control-pots to be mounted directly to the PCB, since these components will place physical and thermal stresses on the circuit-board and can lead to breakdowns. Better quality PCB amps will have some or all of these types of components mounted on the chassis and connected via wires or other connectors to reduce or eliminate these stresses.

 

This whole PCBs-suck/PTP rules thing really got out of hand and blown all out of proportion as sales-hype, really. The design and the build-quality are more important than whether PTP or PCBs are used in an amp. A good designer and builder can produce a good amp with either approach.

 

And besides, most so-called "point-to-point" amps are NOT really PTP, anyways, many use either "eyelet-board" (original "tweed" and "blackface" Fenders, etc., but NOT most of their "Reissues") or "turret" (Hiwatt, Reeves) or similar construction. I believe that most or all Matchless (and maybe Bad Cat?) amps are mostly true PTP construction.

[miroslav]

My Top Hat Club Royale:

 

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/miroslavl/TopHat2.jpg

 

 

My Dr. Z Route 66:

 

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/miroslavl/100_3526-1-1.jpg

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

I can tell you guys this..... I've sat in rooms with designers and equipment guys from Manley, Pendulum, Telefunken, Cranesong, Great River and others; and they talk about the differences in sound that occur based upon the layout of the PCB, the proximity of parts to one another, the distance and thickness of the connections, and of course, the quality of the board and the ground plane. According o them, moving a part loaction can change the sound.

 

Given that degree of sensitivity and ability to detect differences, it is not surprising that point to point wiring, which is pretty much the shortest path, with a much larger pipe; would be considered superior.

 

But for the vast majority of us, it is only an academic question. We have to use what the manufacturers provide, and not many are going point to point at an affordable price.

 

Bill

[Gifthorse]

Those amps look like they should be on the show Lost in Space or something.

[Gifthorse]

Hey I meant that as a joke not ripping on great amps. But I wanted to say that the best amps recorded mostly have been the Marshalls, Fenders, Mesa Boogie and then all the spinoffs. How boutique does a tone have to be? I personally believe the recording engineer, and the guitarists hands come into play in the equation bigtime. More than the actual amp.

[Zephyr]

Point to point wiring, done properly, means it has been thoroughly inspected my the maker, soldering joints are well-made and that there are no problems in the signal chain.

 

In most cases, point-to-point circuits are simple by modern standards. All your Soldano's, Mesas, and any other amp with three or more channels are usually printed in order to make building easier and more consistent and economically cheaper.

 

I don't know about maintenance, but it seems to me that simple point-to-point circuits are easier to fix than complicated mutil-channel counterparts.

 

It's all a matter of perspective. To me, the simpler, the better, because there's less obstructing the guitar's inherent signal.

[soggybomb]

so i guess the answer is 'it depends'. do the same principles apply to multi-channel amps though?

[BrianWren]

Point to point is really, really rugged. You can take the tubes out, throw the amp around on the pavement of the parking lot, and it will still work the same (at least far more than an amp with PC boards, generally). So older PTP amps are often functional, while similarly-aged PCB amps often arent. (Planning to throw your amp out the door of an airplane?)

 

Old recordings with fabulous tone often were made with PTP amps, as thats what was available at that time. That contributes to the reputation of PTP amps.

 

About the same time PCBs were gaining popularity transistors were being heralded as the wave of the future. (Of course, they sounded absolutely awful. I am so broken-hearted that some of the Doobie Brothers best songs were recorded with overdriven tube amps.) Anyway, that contributes to the opinion that PCB amps sound bad, an opinion that does not take into account what is mounted on those PCBs...

 

Mesa claimed in an advertizement that immitators of Mesa amps had a hard task facing them. It said that Mesa deliberately arranges the runs on the PCB so that in some places a run on one side of the board is deliberately run parallel to a run on the other side of the board, so as to use the capacitance between them to control high-frequency internal, parasitic feedback within the amp. (A run or trace is a printed conductor on a printed circuit board.) If that is true (and that actually is plausible), then accomplishing the same result with PTP would be practically impossible.

 

Myself, I hold PCB construction in higher esteem, and believe it to provide the opportunity for vastly greater stability over the yearsif it is a quality job.

 

 

[Darcy H]

I did my own!

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/darcyhoover/ChassisComplete02.jpg

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/darcyhoover/ChassisComplete01.jpg

 

I don't know if I could hear the difference compared to the PCB reissue, but the better speaker and pine cab surely have some affect. If I ever get a chance to A/B them, I'll let you know. Looks nice though, not that anybody ever sees inside it.

[Lokair]

I have rewired some of my bass amps, using PTP, from PCB. But the PCB in my old trace elliot bass amps were great, I only did this for easy of changing a few components. PTP can be great but design is everything when you get to the top end of any thing cars, amps or refrigerators hand built is something of a perfectionist thing. You will always have someone who likes it done one way and anouther who likes it the other way. pick your amp by your ear, if it sounds good then go with it.

[Griffinator]

Fact is, those big fat capacitors and resistors are going to make a difference in the SQ over SMA miniature parts. Not saying bigger is better, saying it's going to be different.

[Strategery]

Point to point, hand wired...all the way baby!

 

Not only that, but oversized, quality transformers and capacitors help.

Add to that having your tube sockets and pots fastened to the chassis instead of a face plate and/or PCB...and you've got a lot of quality differences there.

 

The bottom line is....a quality signal path for you and your guitar to create sound is what's important.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Randy

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Point to point wiring, done properly, means it has been thoroughly inspected my the maker, soldering joints are well-made and that there are no problems in the signal chain.

 

;;; it seems to me that simple point-to-point circuits are easier to fix than complicated mutil-channel counterparts.

 

 

All products from reputable manufacturers are tested for quality control. Printed circuit boards are easier to get right when stuffing and wiring.

 

Nobody said anything about the complexity of the ciruit in questions, so the multichannel stuff is a side issue.

 

Indeed, simpler is better, at least, to my ears.

 

Bill

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Point to point is really, really rugged. You can take the tubes out, throw the amp around on the pavement of the parking lot, and it will still work the same ....

 

so, this is a part if your daily routine? h,mmmmmm....

 

but in real world,m dat to day usage....

[Griffinator]

All products from reputable manufacturers are tested for quality control. Printed circuit boards are easier to get right when stuffing and wiring.

 

Er....

 

Bill, have you worked in a surface-mount plant? Because I have. QC is not easier working with miniaturized parts and patterned solder paste traces. All you can reasonably do with those boards is stick 'em in an electrical test machine and if they pass, send 'em down the line and hope for the best. It's not even reasonable to have a human inspect every single board for solder balls, cold joints, lifted pins, etc - and these are the things that shorten the life of the board.

[Terrell]

Point to Point is like hand stitched Italian leather in your sports car. It looks better even though it's not as precise, it feels better cause you know what it is, it lasts longer cause someone took the care to do it, it has mistakes in it that just makes it that much cooler if it doesn't fall apart, and it smells better of course!

 

I can just smell the solder now.... smells like... shredery...

[Zephyr]

Point to point wiring, done properly, means it has been thoroughly inspected my the maker, soldering joints are well-made and that there are no problems in the signal chain.

 

;;; it seems to me that simple point-to-point circuits are easier to fix than complicated mutil-channel counterparts.

 

 

All products from reputable manufacturers are tested for quality control. Printed circuit boards are easier to get right when stuffing and wiring.

 

Nobody said anything about the complexity of the ciruit in questions, so the multichannel stuff is a side issue.

 

Indeed, simpler is better, at least, to my ears.

 

Bill

 

I really don't think that the guys on the assembly lines at the big companies fully hand inspect every amp that comes to them. Doing a full diagnostic on every amp would take way too long and would slow down productivity. As a matter of fact, my Fender Deluxe came off the line with microphonic tubes, the bias on my power tubes was off and it had a problem where it would sometimes emit a tv-static hiss that would completely drown out my signal.

 

The only reason I mentioned complexity, is because I believe Soggy plays through a Mesa (correction...?), and it would not serve him or his tone if we told him PTP was the only way to get good tone, and he went out and bought a one style PTP amp that could not do what his current rig can.

 

Like I said, some of the most famous amps of all time have simple circuits. And even today, most of the PTP amps are simple, two channels or less, in most cases. And believe me, that a tech would have a far easier time troubleshooting and repairing a handwired Fender Princeton (it has less than 20 components), then he would trying to fix a something like a Marshall JCM2000.

[Darcy H]

I think "true" point to point refers to no circuit board of any kind, just to confuse the issue

 

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g120/teleclarkster/Newcomb%20Amp/DSC00204.jpg

 

I agree with Terrell, they smell better!

[desertbluesman]

Well I have been playing since 1964 and I revere the old amp tones of those past days. I began with a Black face Fender Baseman head and 2-12 cab, then bought a black face Deluxe Reverb, on up to Silver Face Twins and Deluxes and one Silver Face Pro Reverb, To this day I can not get certain aspects of those tones.

 

I have a Hot Rod Deluxe, probably Chinese made that simply outshines those old amps for certain tones and versatility. I do not know how well it would hold up under a heavy workload since I do not play out anymore. But I use it every day for rehearsal, so far no problems

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Well I have been playing since 1964 and I revere the old amp tones of those past days. I began with a Black face Fender Baseman head and 2-12 cab, then bought a black face Deluxe Reverb, on up to Silver Face Twins and Deluxes and one Silver Face Pro Reverb, To this day I can not get certain aspects of those tones.

 

I have a Hot Rod Deluxe, probably Chinese made that simply outshines those old amps for certain tones and versatility.

 

Not fornothing, but have you changed the tubes, cleaned the pots and re-heated the solder joints in the recent past? Those older amps might perk up for you. That doesn't say that you'llbe able to get everything that you want out of them. But I bet that the overall performance will improve greatly.

 

Bill

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Er....

 

Bill, have you worked in a surface-mount plant? ... All you can reasonably do with those boards is stick 'em in an electrical test machine and if they pass, send 'em down the line and hope for the best. It's not even reasonable to have a human inspect every single board for solder balls, cold joints, lifted pins, etc - and these are the things that shorten the life of the board.

 

No, but at CBI we were manufacturing custom parts, and had a wave solder machine. I didn't have to deal with it, and I could not even tell you what it looks like. But I did see the blueprints for the boards, and the boards, and the parts used were not the miniature parts like one sees in VCRs they were regular-sized parts. And the test sginals were straight forward... signal into the front end of the board, read the output on a display. If you have set it up properly, the test proceedure is as good as any point to point test proceedure could be, there should be no difference, when it comes to QC... you either have it or you don't. Assuming that QC is bad because the circuits are on printed circuit boards is just not a supportable or reasonable stance.... didn't someone here say that the THD amps are made on printed circuit boards? You think that they suck, or have bad QC? I bet there are more PCs in the spacce shuttle than PTP wiring, too. Is that germain? Probably not. I can't speak to microphonic tubes, they are out of the realm of this discussion.

 

The reason that I said that they are easier to stuff, is that the parts go in the boards in a geometrical configuration, often with legends printed on the board. You don't have to think as much to assemble such a circuit as you do when wiring point to point. If you are wiring them 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, easier is better. Hand me 200 parts and a circuit board, or 200 parts, a layout diagram, a schematic, and a chassis; I promise that the circuit board will be finished before the chassis, and both will be wired correctly.

 

I believe this so much that now when I build anything, I use perf board (and wire point to point upon the board, with I/O terminals.)

 

These discussions are always fun, but we can't parse things one way for what we like an another way for what we don't. Real, reasonable, supportable suppositions are cool. (and i don't question your experience in a factory, I just question that every factory functions in this way. It would not were it mine...I could not stand the lost parts. But I went to a car plant once and was appaled by the hundreds of cars sitting on the lot that were not made correctly, tot he point where you had to wonder if the workers had ever seen a car before, or understood what the parts were, where they went, and what tools to use to put them there.)

 

Bill

[Griffinator]

If you have set it up properly, the test proceedure is as good as any point to point test proceedure could be, there should be no difference,

 

It's not, because of the miniaturization aspect. When someone is hand-soldering large parts, they have an immediate participation in the QC - they can see it if they cold-soldered a joint.

 

Even if they're working with small parts on a PC board, they still have a visual component so long as the parts are large enough to hand solder.

 

The problems start when you incorporate automated surface-mount manufacturing, with miniature IC chips and thousands of parts on a single board measuring 10" square.

 

I'm not saying the QC is bad/nonexistent at this level, I'm saying that there's not the same level of reliability at this level, because a cold solder joint will still pass an electrical test, but it can break loose a couple years down the road, and with the dizzying complexity of the circuit, you're basically replacing the whole board. Same thing with a lifted pin on an IC - it'll still pass an electrical integrity test, even if it isn't making full contact (1/64" gap on a low-voltage board will arc and act like a clean contact) only the exposed pin will wind up cooking over the course of the first hundred uses and the contact will break down.

 

It's just not feasible to visually inspect every single connection on a miniaturized surface mount PCB - because it'd take an hour for each board with someone hunched over a microscope (I know, because I was that guy when we started having solder-ball problems on a given run) with a pair of tweezers looking for weird stuff like that, and even if they find a lifted pin, that's another 15-20 minutes gone with a chip puller because they don't make soldering guns small enough to handle micro-parts like that, you have to paste, heat, and re-seat the whole IC and hope it's not worse when you get done than when you started.

 

Micro-SMA is a nightmare, and that's how most of these amp companies are doing their PCB's these days, because that's how they get the cost of the boards down below $10 apiece (although they're happy to charge you $600 for a replacement if you need one) from their Chinese manufacturing plants, building them a million at a time.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

It's not, because of the miniaturization aspect. When someone is hand-soldering large parts, they have an immediate participation in the QC - they can see it if they cold-soldered a joint.

 

Even if they're working with small parts on a PC board, they still have a visual component so long as the parts are large enough to hand solder.

 

The problems start when you incorporate automated surface-mount manufacturing, ...

 

You've seen these in modern quality amplifiers? I never have.

 

"Visual" inspection is not very good QC, particularly when done by the person who did the original work to begin with. As I said, input a signal, read the output.

 

There is more likely to be a cold solder joint with hand work done by an hourly wage slave than with machine soldering.

 

Bill

[alfonso]

 

You've seen these in modern quality amplifiers? I never have.

 

"Visual" inspection is not very good QC, particularly when done by the person who did the original work to begin with. As I said, input a signal, read the output.

 

There is more likely to be a cold solder joint with hand work done by an hourly wage slave than with machine soldering.

 

Bill

 

If we obviously take from granted the quality of the hand-work and some builders have a solid reputation for this, there is no way an even good quality common pcb can achieve a path quality of high grade solid core wires and the spacing between components that is found in hand-wired boards, let alone the miserable destiny ensured to that 90% of pots and usually stressed components directly soldered on the pcb, or the easier rationalization of distances in hand-wired circuits, not to mention the achievable accuracy in grounding.

I would add also the serviceability of any hand-wired board is hundred times simpler than a pcb one, which often is only replaced entirely at incredible prices.

[Terrell]

Dell is coming out with a new p2p pc!!!!!!

 

I've got my latop on order. I can't wait. The tone in my recording rig just got bigger!

 

http://www.computer-museum.org/collections/RoyalPercision.gif

 

 

 

 

 

[Strategery]

I think the fact that "Boutique" amp companies are on the rise and are increasing their sales is a testement that using good, quality manufacturing practices, parts and components are still sought after by guitarists world wide, even at the higher prices they command.

 

Sure, a few of them utilize a rugged form of PCB and they sound fantastic!

But I think that "TIME" will tell the "Longevity" tale on those amps as well.

 

The vast majority of "Boutique" amp builders though are using PTP building methods.

I think the reason being is not only that "sought after" tone that they produce, but that this method of manufacture has already been tried and proven it's worth and longevity.

 

Hey, I'm only 50 and didn't start playing guitar until 1974.

So for that reason, I had to go seek out some of these amps back then to see what all the HoopLa was about with these 50's & 60's amps.

 

I would challenge all you "younger" guitar players to get out there and test out these "Boutique/PTP & PCB" amps..."if they'll let you" , and make your own decision.

I think you will find the difference to be large.

Uhhh....don't do it like you do in GC. They'll escort you out the front door.

 

Enjoy.

 

Randy

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

The average 1950s or 60s amp usually sounds flat and lifeless until a trip to the shop... fresh tubes, a good cleaning, re-bias, re-heat the solder joints and maybe replace some dried caps should bring them back to life.

 

Still, I dumped my collection for the THD.

 

Bill