MP8 v.s. the new Roland Ivory feel action

[niacin]

I've been reading post after post on how good the new Roland weighted action is, but the comparison are always with Yamaha or Kurz. IMO the best action out there by a country mile has until now been Kawai's AWA pro action found currently on the MP8. So can anyone please offer any comments on how the Roland compares to that, given I can't try an RD700GX out here yet.

Thanks.

[delirium]

for my taste, the new roland PHA II Ivory Feel with Escapement blows away MP8 action easily. Kawai action although smells good has some rubbery feel to it.

[Byrdman]

I just got to try a RD700GX yesterday and the action was a bit disappointing. Its a little slow and mushy. The finish on it, (the "ivory feel") though, is excellent. And the weight of the action is nice. Its a feeling of friction in the action that I did not care for. The instrument had just been pulled out of the box so maybe that will improve with playing.

 

On the other hand, the new piano sounds are wonderful. I didn't spend much time with the EPs but I did not notice any remarkable improvement over the SX EPS. They appear to be exactly the same patch set, which has always been short on grunge - Roland EPs have always had the problem, taken as a set, of being too polite.

[SilverDragonSoun]

The new Roland action is nice but the Kawai is a real action. I've been playing the piano about 90% of the time when I play now, and the Kawai action, to me, is a closer representation of the real thing. The Roland action to me is a more a synthetic representation, a very nice one though.

[Jazz+]

I played the newest Kawai MP8 action the same day I played the new RD-700GX and I thought the Roland keys felt more like real ivory piano keys.

[jsaras]

I'm very impressed with the action on my Fatar VMK-176. In fact, once I settle into it, I think it's better than my Yamaha U1 upright.

[Joe Muscara]

I'd love to have the Studiologic VMK Plus series, RD700GX and Kawai MP8II to try side by side, but I might as well be asking for a Steinway and a Yamaha U5 to be in the room as well. I haven't even found any of the digitals I've listed aside from the Roland around here.

[Superboy]

I think Kawai's wood keys are more gimmick than substance. Every time I play one, I have high expectations and I'm usually left thinking that the action is no better than most non-wooden weighted keybeds.

Of all the actions I've tried, Roland's are the best. Their weight is closest to a nice grand. For reference, I always use a Yamaha C3 grand because those pianos are very common and have a consistently nice action to them. Roland's actions are closest to that vs the other keyboards.

There's only a couple of things I don't like about the Roland action (and I haven't tried the GX yet, only the SX and regular 700).

--Nice action, but unlike a real grand, it tires your fingers after a while. A real grand usually will warm your fingers up as you play, and instead of getting tired, you're energized about an hour into it. If you play basketball, it's similar to playing a game on concrete and afterwards your legs are tired (the keyboard action), vs playing on a nice wooden indoor court (real grand).

 

--The "bounce" of the keys are not as responsive as a grand. Granted, no digital keybed I've tried has a good bounce...and Roland's is better than most. Again, the bounce on the grand is probably due to the complexity of the whole mechanism of a hammer, string, etc.

 

I'm really glad to see Roland working to improve its actions. I honestly don't think Kawai is putting much serious effort into it; they are just hoping that having wooden keys is good enough. I also don't see Yamaha making progress on their actions, seems to me like they haven't changed in the last 8 years.

[Joe Muscara]

Superboy, I'd like to see what you think once you try the GX.

[Superboy]

Superboy, I'd like to see what you think once you try the GX.

Well, I won't be able to compare it simultaneously with the MP8 because no store around here has the Mp8. But I already know that it will be better than any Kawaii by assumption. Why do I say this? Because before the GX (the SX and regular 700) most people people were already 50/50 with the Roland feel. A lot of people preferred it and a lot of people preferred the Yamaha's or Kawai's. So if everyone is raving about the GX, I bet it's clearly better than anything out there, but I'll have to try for sure.

I'll say this much though, Yamaha didn't improve their action that much (if at all) with the CP-300, and with all the talk about the MP8, I couldn't sense that significant of an improvement over the 9500...furthermore, I didn't prefer it over a Roland.

One thing Roland has gotten right with the 700 on is the weight of key itself. I know that's not everything, but it's a step in the right direction. When you play a Yamaha C3 grand, there's a certain weight you feel that is very nice and lets you know you're playing a nice grand and not an upright. Roland gets the weight of that right more so than Kawai or Yamaha. The more difficult part is mimicking the weight of the key as it goes through its motion from top to bottom; but nobody gets this right. But Yamaha's and Kawai's keyboards feel much lighter in their weight. And there may be some people that prefer that (and I can understand that; I myself often feel finger fatigue from playing the Roland), but the bottom line is that the grand feel has a pretty hefty weight associated with it.

There will be a breakthrough one day where a keyboard manufacturer can mimic the weight of a grand with that pleasant action that doesn't tire the fingers. Maybe the GX is close, I can't wait to try it!

[kanker.]

I think Kawai's wood keys are more gimmick than substance.

Being one who suffers from tendonitis in my thumbs, I can tell you that the wood is no gimmick. Plastic piano style keyboard actions make my hands hurt fairly quickly. I can play the MP8II all day without pain. That's all the proof I need.

[orangefunk]

It might also have a lot to do with the type of keyboard stand a person has... I remember a guy playing montunos on an Roland A80 using a X Stand... it was bouncing all over the place... that can't be good for your hands...

[SilverDragonSoun]

I think Kawai's wood keys are more gimmick than substance.

Being one who suffers from tendonitis in my thumbs, I can tell you that the wood is no gimmick. Plastic piano style keyboard actions make my hands hurt fairly quickly. I can play the MP8II all day without pain. That's all the proof I need.

 

:idea:

[Floyd Tatum]

Being one who suffers from tendonitis in my thumbs, I can tell you that the wood is no gimmick. Plastic piano style keyboard actions make my hands hurt fairly quickly. I can play the MP8II all day without pain. That's all the proof I need.

 

What is it about the wood, do you think, that makes that difference?

[delirium]

Being one who suffers from tendonitis in my thumbs, I can tell you that the wood is no gimmick. Plastic piano style keyboard actions make my hands hurt fairly quickly. I can play the MP8II all day without pain. That's all the proof I need.

 

What is it about the wood, do you think, that makes that difference?

 

wooden keys are subject to woodworm action, and with time the key is lighter and lighter because of the holes hence less pain in fingers and wrists.

 

[kanker.]

What is it about the wood, do you think, that makes that difference?

I think there are a few things. First I need to qualify this by saying I have yet to play a plastic action with escapement. I have a feeling this will make a huge difference in the playability of a plastic action for someone like me.

 

I think the Kawai has a combination of advantages that work for me. First of all, there is an actual long lever. This, along with the 'softer' nature of wood allows more forces to dissipate instead of be transferred back into the hand. Second, the hammer is located at the end of the lever instead of throwing upward under the key to the key top. The plastic key focuses more forces back toward the hand because of that. Next, real piano felts. The felts under plastic keys are very hard and are sitting on a metal rail, again, focusing more force back into the hand. The wood key has a solid bottom, the plastic key is open, allowing the key to cut into the felt and eventually down to the metal. With the wooden key, all those forces are being dealt with in a larger area than the plastic key, which focuses all those forces into the compact area between the front of the key and the fulcrum point. Again, I suspect that escapement would help to alleviate some of these issues, but others like the open bottom cutting felts are terminal problems that the plastic actions will continue to have and will again focus forces back into the hand.

[Superboy]

kanker, you may be right about the wooden keys. Like I said, even though I prefer the action of the Rolands, it does tire my fingers after playing for a couple of hours. I've never played the Kawai's for any prolonged period of time. The things I say are based on trying things out in a store for a few minutes.

By "gimmick" I meant to say that just because the Kawai keys were made of wood, it didn't necessarily make it feel like a grand piano any more than a plastic key. Whether or not it's good for tendinitis is another thing altogether. If that's true, then of course, the Kawai is something to consider because I don't want to get tendinitis playing my Roland for years and years.

 

Another thing I wanted to say is that I don't like talking about why a certain action feels this way or that because I don't think the end users like us can know without doing some intense analysis that involves physics and actual scientific methods. All I can say is how the action feels to me, but I can't say it's because of the felt, or a long lever, or wooden keys, or anything like that. I used to do research and the intuitive answer was often completely off, you just never know. For example, a good felt cushioning might make it seem like the key is more gentle on the finger, but analysis may also reveal that too much cushion can damage your finger (I'm not saying this is true, but results like this are not uncommon).

[kanker.]

Whether or not it's good for tendinitis is another thing altogether. If that's true, then of course, the Kawai is something to consider because I don't want to get tendinitis playing my Roland for years and years.

I can't blame my tendonitis on my choice of keyboard. I had a few other physical issues through the rest of my body that finally manifested themselves in my hands. It was only after the tendonitis set in that I found that plastic actions bothered me. There are some serious flaws in their design that I pointed out - for example, having the front 1/4" or so of the bottom of the key have a solid bottom and improving the felt under the key could really make a long term difference in the actual life of the action. Again, I suspect escapement really has to be a huge improvement as escapement releases some of the forces that otherwise would go directly back in to the hand.

 

 

 

[kanker.]

I should add that the totality of problems that I have had explain why I highly recommend sitting down while playing with 'proper' posture. There are centuries of wisdom regarding technique that are unwise to ignore IMO.

[Superboy]

I should add that the totality of problems that I have had explain why I highly recommend sitting down while playing with 'proper' posture. There are centuries of wisdom regarding technique that are unwise to ignore IMO.

Yeah, that's something I focused on this year. I got a new stand and I started to really pay attention to my posture and hand, elbow, arm positioning. Also, being more effficient with my physical movements. I realized, I slouch too much and play too hard when I could use much less movement for the same volume. Good point.

[niacin]

Thanks for the comments. I bought an MP9500 over an RD700 some years back. For me it was just no contest. In fact I had given up finding a new digital piano that I really liked when the store owner offered to get the Kawai in (there were 2 of us, semi-professionals, looking to spend serious money on a portable piano). I played it for a whole, oh, 30 seconds before I whipped out the credit card. It is, imo, a fabulous action. Like Pete "Kayvon" I have it hooked up to a Fantom-Xr. I did play an RD700-GX yesterday and most of the comments here confirm my impressions. I may yet buy a Studiologic VMK unseen, but the new Roland has the only action that I've yet tried, apart from the Kawai MP9500/8, that gives me the uncanny feeling that I'm throwing a hammer into a string. And it's 25kg, and is very slimline. The Kawai is simply not portable, for me anyway.

[Superboy]

Superboy, I'd like to see what you think once you try the GX.

OK, I had a chance to play with the new Fantom G8 (same action as the GX) today at my local Guitar Center.

 

I am officially blown away by this new action. It is unreal and way better than any action I've ever come across before. It's better than the Kawai's, Yamahas, and even other Roland's. It's in a class of its own.

 

It feels real, it really does. Not just that nice texture of the key finish (vs the plastic feel of all other keyboards) but the action itself is really nice. Roland's really done something amazing here.

 

Now, I know from experience that I can't go by my initial reactions. Very often, how something feels playing it for a few minutes in the store is very different from how it feels after playing for hours at a gig or practicing at home. However, I can't remember being this impressed by anything initially in the past 5 years.

 

I was even prepared to disregard the "ivory" finish of the keys as that has nothing to do with action, but man, that was a very nice touch and it does help the piano feel more real.

 

I don't know what else to say. I don't know or understand what escapement is, and I definitely can't explain what it feels like, but I know this piano feels really good.

 

And I still want to say that the Kawai 9500 or MP8 still doesn't do it for me at all. It may be helpful for the fingers for someone in kanker's situation, but as far as comparing it to a real grand, it's just not very close at all. This new Roland G action is very, very close. Again, these are my first impressions only at this point.

[Joe Muscara]

Thanks Superboy, you make a great sidekick.

 

I feel the same way about the Ivory feel/PHA II action. I just want to keep going to GC (a store I abhor) just to play it. I almost wish I had never tried it at all.

[eric]

Yes, it is one seductive action on the RD-700GX. Addictive, I say.

[Jazz+]

I agree, close your eyes and the keys feel just about like a real nice piano.

[delirium]

I agree, close your eyes and the keys feel just about like a real nice piano.

 

exactly, close also your ears and you'll feel completely like at the grand...

[Jazz+]

Obviously digital pianos always sound like a recording of a piano, that's all they are. They will never sound just like sitting at a real piano in our lifetimes, at least not for a sales price that most of us can afford.

[Superboy]

Obviously digital pianos always sound like a recording of a piano, that's all they are. They will never sound just like sitting at a real piano in our lifetimes, at least not for a sales price that most of us can afford.

That's true. But it's very possible for digital pianos to come close enough where both the user and listener can be satisfied. Of course it will never be like the real thing, but that doesn't mean it can never be good enough.

 

Let's be honest here, we've all played acoustic pianos, even grand pianos, that have had horrible action or horrible sound or both. There are a lot of real pianos where I would prefer to play my Roland instead of it. I feel this way about most upright pianos.

 

My favorite reasonable piano is the Yamaha C3 grand. It's not too expensive and it has wonderful action and sound. Sure there are Steinways, Bosendorfers, etc. that are better, but I'm talking about pianos that normal people can afford. I hate my parent's grand piano. It sounds terrible and feels like crap.

 

The Roland GX action is real, real nice. It's pianos sounds are decent enough where I might prefer playing it unless I had a C3 or another quality grand in front of me. It's that nice.

[orangefunk]

At the university I have the chance to play 3 Steinways... the nicest looking one (and newest) is probably the most disappointing piano I've ever played... just bright and shrill like a bad digital sample in fact... the best is the old 1960s Steinway which looks completely knackered but sounds like heaven...

 

I also play 2 Yamahas... one is some cheap model I suspect whereas the other is a classic U1. The U1 sounds wonderful... beautiful... never tried a U3 but if its anything like this then I'm sold.

 

I think on the Motifator site someone offered a piano sound for the MOTIF that was mic'ed from the perspective of the player rather than inside a piano... it was a very interesting sound.. but not one that you would record with....

 

 

[delirium]

well, whatever crappy acoustic you play at least you can be sure you will not hear any phasing and sh*t...