Witkowski guitars

[revolead]

There is what?

[Guitarzan]

I don't think it necessarily a difference between hand or machine made. I thinks its about the amount of care that will probably go into a guitar made by a craftsman. Someone who puts his own name on something rather than some giant corporation's is going to go the extra mile to make sure its right. Sure a handmade guitar can be a lemon, and a factory made one a gem, but chances are the handmade one will be better.

 

that is what i am getting at.

my original comment is about the fact a custom built instrument is worth the extra dough and just because a guitar is built with hand tools does not mean it is not a precision instrument.

[Dr. Ellwood]

There is what?

 

 

Theres the reason!

[Soulrock]

Lee, I'm with you 100% about CNC machines. A hand cut and carved body or neck is in no way superior to a CNC cut. In fact, much tighter tolerances can be achieved with automation. However, I do understand the appeal of having a guitar custom made for you by a luthier. My brother had a bass made for him by Mike Lull. In truth I have no idea whether the neck and body were hand cut or not, but he did get to pick out the piece of wood, pickups, neck, finish, tuning machines ect. and have an instrument that is exactly how he wanted it. On top of that, every aspect of construction was done by an excellent and respected luthier. It wasn't sanded, wired, or fretted by someone making $12 an hour who hates his job and has to pump out x number of parts a day. The quality is top notch, and he is thrilled with the bass. I don't think it is the only option to get a first rate instrument, but it is an option, and the right option for some people.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I don't think it necessarily a difference between hand or machine made. I thinks its about the amount of care that will probably go into a guitar made by a craftsman. Someone who puts his own name on something rather than some giant corporation's is going to go the extra mile to make sure its right. Sure a handmade guitar can be a lemon, and a factory made one a gem, but chances are the handmade one will be better.

 

 

 

that is what i am getting at.

my original comment is about the fact a custom built instrument is worth the extra dough and just because a guitar is built with hand tools does not mean it is not a precision instrument.

 

It can for sure be a very precision instrument! but it is not worth anymore money, if it's worth more money WHY is it worth more money? is it worth more money because it was made with hand tools? because the person had to sweat more? it is the end product that counts no matter what the building technique was.

[Guitarzan]

"a custom built instrument is built specifically as a unit not an assembly of random parts."

 

I know you think that MUST be true, but it is not! There is essentially NO design interaction between the design of the neck and the body itself on a solid body guitar! as I said before, the neck pocket IS the common ground, there is the interaction. The neck is NOT part of the design, any neck on a solid body guitar can be fitted to any solid body guitar! it is only the neck pocket that is critical! The shape of the body, the contor of the body, any detail in the body or control cavities are of NO importance except the neck pocket! There is a formula that has to be followed no matter if it's CNC controlled or it's manually controlled, it does not change! The is a specific ratio in length that must be kept no matter what the method off assembly is.

 

Lee a custom guitar maker (not a custom shop of a major manufacturer) is not grabbing pre made parts to whip off an instrument. i am refering to a real custom guitar builder not a mass produced guitar.

sure the control cavity isn't a vital part of it and yes scale length isn't a random measurement. that isn't my point.

guitars made by true craftsmen are done one at a time. and even though basic design and specs are measured out, fine tuning and fitting will make a tighter piece of work if the craftsman has any skill. if he doesn't he isn't a craftsman is he?

fenders are CNC made , so why do some of them have crappy neck joints? machines break down and do things they are not supposed to , they do not really see and they do not think.

i have nothing against CNC but it isn't perfect.

[Guitarzan]

I don't think it necessarily a difference between hand or machine made. I thinks its about the amount of care that will probably go into a guitar made by a craftsman. Someone who puts his own name on something rather than some giant corporation's is going to go the extra mile to make sure its right. Sure a handmade guitar can be a lemon, and a factory made one a gem, but chances are the handmade one will be better.

 

 

 

that is what i am getting at.

my original comment is about the fact a custom built instrument is worth the extra dough and just because a guitar is built with hand tools does not mean it is not a precision instrument.

 

It can for sure be a very precision instrument! but it is not worth anymore money, if it's worth more money WHY is it worth more money? is it worth more money because it was made with hand tools? because the person had to sweat more? it is the end product that counts no matter what the building technique was.

 

why not stock up on some Korean guitars? they are made in factories using CNC machines.

 

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ok lets just take Mr.Witkowski as a example, if you take the time to watch all of the videos, through his entire process you will see how he attempts to automate. He shapes the body shape with a pin router (sometimes called blind routering or follow cutting) this is his automation because it is all he has. He uses a template to cut the neck truss rod cavity..because it's all he has, but it is an attempt at automation, he will use it over and over, it's automation. He contours the neck with a articulating spindle sander because it's all he has and he doesn't know any other way to do it,not automation because he doesn't have the skill or technology to do it in any other way, this operation is not repeatable. He sands the finger board flat on a large sanding block because he knows it must be spotted in flat and this is the old way to do it, a CNC flat planer will do it in one operation. He glues and clamps like any production source would, no difference. He routs the neck pocket using a depth gage because he has no other way to do it and trial and error tells him what depth it must be to be correct to the accept the neck, cnc with it's design database calculates this depth in half a second and it perfect every time. All the laborious hand sanding he does is still done in much the same way by any builder. Why anyone would pay extra for this persons decision to not use technology is beyond me! because he does not have technology working for him is not reason to penalize the customer, because extra money for what this person does is exactly that!

[Dr. Ellwood]

CNC controlled machines don't see? they sure as heck DO see, and they watch the results of their cutting operations closer than any human eye could ever watch. CNC machines don't think, no human being can make thousands of calculations per second and algorithms control differences in the cutting environment constantly. There are constant feed back loops being used in CNC control.

[Dr. Ellwood]

There is a middle ground here, and that is the manufacturer who uses CNC technology AND employs skilled builders.

[Guitarzan]

CNC controlled machines don't see? they sure as heck DO see, and they watch the results of their cutting operations closer than any human eye could ever watch. CNC machines don't think, no human being can make thousands of calculations per second and algorithms control differences in the cutting environment constantly. There are constant feed back loops being used in CNC control.

 

machines break down and have hiccups. they are not aware of this all the time. i work around some pretty high tech machinery and if i wasn't there i hate to think what kind of quality may slip by.

CNC has made good guitars available to alot of people. but a true custom instrument is worth a premium IMHO.

[Dr. Ellwood]

The point is Zan, you are there! and that's why you are there, these CNC machines don't run unattended! Do you run CNC machines with optical scanning and optical QC?

[Dr. Ellwood]

Right and your custom builder has a hangover, or the flu, or he's going through a divorce or a death in the family etc. and your custom guitar is the last thing on his mind but he has to make a living. Lots of chances for the custom builder to make mistakes huh!

[Soulrock]

fenders are CNC made , so why do some of them have crappy neck joints?

 

Volume and quality controll. The same level of quality (and even greater) can be achieved with CNC machines. Just not when volume becomes more important than QC. If Mr Witkowski used automation, but still personally did all of the inspection, set up, sanding, fret work ect. the quality of his guitars would not drop. The problem is that it is not cost effective unless you build large quantites, at which point, one person can not do all of the work themselves. What you are truly paying for IMO, is someone taking the time to ensure they are building the finest quality guitar they can. It's not really about the tools they use, just the attention to detail.

 

[Guitarzan]

so a premium is deserved for a true custom build.

[Guitarzan]

Right and your custom builder has a hangover, or the flu, or he's going through a divorce or a death in the family etc. and your custom guitar is the last thing on his mind but he has to make a living. Lots of chances for the custom builder to make mistakes huh!

 

i seriously think mr. custom would allow his name to be ruined by neglect.

 

[Guitarzan]

we can use printed circuits in amps or have them hand wired point to point.

we pay more for truly hand built stuff.

it is fair to ask for a premium for that extra level of quality and detail.

that is the custom builders right and i think it is deserved.

[Guitarzan]

geez i spent more time on this thread than i have on the forum all week.

[Rhino Madness]

You will always find people who value a labor of love over plain and simple work production even if there is no difference on an engineering point of view.

 

It is a widespread belief that even inanimate objects can carry the love, passion and care put into their creation. Many people feel that passionate work produces something more desirable (with more mojo) and will be willing to pay more. Whether imagined or real, those benefits are important to many customers.

 

Custom builders are also much more likely to carefully select toneful pieces of wood; not just the wood species but the weight/density, grain pattern, cut, etc. They are also more likely to match the electronics to the finished body/neck (vary component values to tame/enhance some characteristics depending on that particular instrument's response, choose different pickups, etc.).

[Rhino Madness]

With all that said, once the right piece of wood has been selected, it should not matter if a CNC or hand router or whatever cuts the wood. For instance, a custom builder like our very own Boggs shows a lot of love and enthusiasm for his work even if he contracts out the CNC cutting/routing. He obviously still puts all his passion in his builds.

 

But there are always those who will insist: "They just don't make 'em like they used to anymore". For them, traditional methods have value and will always have their place.

 

To each their own; isn't it wonderful to have a choice?

[VacuumVoodoo]

Well, irrespective of preferred production method it all has to start with a vision. Something like the sculptor who saw David hiding in a block of marble and chiseled him out. But he had a fleet of apprentices who did the rough chiseling for him. Today he might create the sculpture in CAD software and let CNC machine do 99% of chiseling making the apprentices redundant. It's the last 1% left to masters eye and hand that will make it a unique piece of art. That said, I think that even in a fully automated guitar factory in Far East there are a few traditional craftsmen who put the final touches and stamps of approval. At least on the top of the line guitars.

 

It all has a place in our days of quick fixes, throw away cell phones and so on. If Mr. Witkowski and his likes can make a decent living with their outdated totally not cost efficient methods all the better. They are a part of our cultural heritage and are in fact an endangered species. EU has a program for preservation of these but it is very difficult to get on the list.

 

As said above, to each their own. EOR.

 

 

 

 

[Trucks]

When Doc Ell's AI robot's take over the planet. I will fight for the humans.

 

I love that a person has sat there and taken every tiny decision into consideration.. Every little imperfection in the wood has been noticed, and accounted for in the final sanding.. etc.. The builder has added his little personal touch to every single part of the guitar...

 

You can't beat a hand made guitar, just like you can't beat my mums Sunday roast! It's not machine perfect, it's naturally evolved through hard work, technique and experience.

[skipclone 1]

In 100 years or any century you name, people will be lining up and paying more-and happily so-for instruments (and anything else) built by hand from master craftsmen.To quote a goofy aphorism, amatuers built Noah`s Ark-professionals built the Titanic.

Distortion was discovered by accident. Pick up a newspaper and find out what happens to careful planning (okay,this is me not going there).

Flip the perspective. A year or two ago someone posted on this board, they had a chance to hang out with Steve Lukather for an afternoon. During their talk the forum member asked Steve about selling his copy of his Music Man (solid body) sig model. Basically he said, no way-I had to play through guitars "all day to find this one". Oh? now why is that- Ernie Ball/Music Man is not exactly three barefoot guys in a bungalow. Shouldn`t they all be the

same? at least close enough so, grab the first one off the shelf-you`re good to go? of course not. What a ridiculous debate.

Ultimately the goal of corporate QC is, everyone gets exactly what they pay for. The more craft is involved, the better the chances of getting more than what you pay for,in rare cases a LOT more.

 

 

[fantasticsound]

"OK, so I'm an old school romantic and I like my pants hand made by a human tailor too."

 

So it's a bit like buying one of your amps? for me, I supply the human interaction when I play it. I could see and agree with you possibly on acoustic or even a acoustic electric instrument, but not on a solid bodied electric, to me that is just silly.

 

Except wood is absolutely not metal. Sculpting wood into an instrument can't be quantified accurately because each piece of wood is unique. No two Les Paul's are exactly alike because there isn't a CNC machine alive that is sophisticated enough to know why a piece of wood (solidbody or otherwise) needs a little shaved in one place and not another to be right.

 

If you want to build mediocre instruments or deny the wood has anything to do with the sound then a CNC machine cutting exactly the same thing every time will do nicely. Not so for a finely crafted instrument.

 

If that's the case Lee I'm surprised you haven't begun playing solid body instruments made from extremely lightweight materials with poor resonance qualities. If the body doesn't matter in a solid body instrument than the strongest, light weight, cheap material should be perfect, right?

[Dr. Ellwood]

Huh? I wonder which tree my aluminum Strat came from? Dunno!!! LOL!!

[Dr. Ellwood]

"If the body doesn't matter in a solid body instrument than the strongest, light weight, cheap material should be perfect, right?"

 

But that's not what I said. I said pick wood that is known for it's tone, I also said somewhere I didn't think solid bodied guitars are tap tested and I don't believe it.

[fantasticsound]

Except "wood that is known for it's tone" various so greatly that people are yelling gloom and doom in the industry over how much wood is left of instrument grade quality and how much is being used for other purposes that don't require the same grade. Each piece of wood is unique and exhibits unique qualities derived from the environment the tree lived in and the care and handling of the log and individual boards down the line. While it is possible to quantify anything, it is not feasable for an automated machine to assess an individual piece of wood for the qualities of a musical instrument of the finest grade. Heck.. we can't even figure out exactly what makes a Stradivarius instrument so coveted and replicate it and you think we can program a machine to do it for us?

 

As for tap testing, that could be done by a machine.. unfortunately the machine can't accurately assess how to adjust that piece of wood to get the desired result.

[fantasticsound]

And, I might add, your aluminum strat may exhibit desirable tone qualities, but A)It's too expensive to make when B)It's too heavy given the alternatives.

 

I never said wood is the only material that can be used to make fine instruments. But the same qualities we look for in wood better be there with alternatives. Check out Composite Acoustics or Rainsong, both of which build entirely synthetic instruments of great tone and quality. (And the beauty is if you get it right in ultra rigid materials such as the carbon fiber they use, heat and humidity (within the ranges of our environment) have no affect on the instrument's sound whatsoever.

 

And, I might add, Composite Acoustics in particular goes to great lengths to ensure the sandwich of materials exhibits particular audible characteristics throughout the manufacturing process.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ok... so your saying a solid body electric is tap tested? and if when it's tap tested WHERE on the solid body guitar is it adjusted to alter the tone in a positive way???? I know where a acoustic instrument is adjusted! I say they pick a good tone wood known for it's acoustic and resonance and thats IT!! the machine ISN'T testing the woods used! a skilled person is making THAT decision, that's what I've said all through this thread. I'm talking about the machining once the material is picked!

[Dr. Ellwood]

Aluminum Strat is too heavy??? and what do you think that strat weights?