Is it talent or skill?

[PBBPaul]

I just finished reading a news story about Lyle Lovett's testimony to Congress urging that musicians get paid royalties for radio play. In it, Lyle says "This issue is not about me. It's about the thousands of performers across the country who work so hard to earn livings that are so modest in relation to their talent". Then I read Zuben's thread about what drives us.

 

This bugs me a bit. I get so tired of people coming up to me and saying "You are so lucky to be so talented. I wish I had your talent!" Even though I think of myself as mostly a hack, where were these people when I was practicing 8 hours a day? Where were these people when I was playing that riff 900 times in a row so I could avoid screwing it up on stage? What makes people think that we are just born with it? Is an engineer just born with it? A doctor (sorry Don)? I think this generality is at the root of the whole "music should be free" attitude.

 

I think passion is a more appropriate word. I don't speak for you all but it's passion that drives me. It's a passion to want to communicate melodically that makes me want to keep playing and develop my skill. IMHO it's passion that drives an individual to want to be their best in whatever their chosen endeavor.

 

So; while I agree with Lyle's meaning, I think that using the word "talent" is a mistake. People seem to equate that with a God-given characteristic. I'd like to see it replaced with "passion" to acheive a level of "skill".

 

Sorry if I sound like a whiny bitch. Given the number of really fine guitarists on this forum, I figure that at least a few of you have experienced this as well. Or am I just an asshole?

[Guitarzan]

no you are not an asshole. i agree. passion is what drive us to learn what we do not know, seek what we need and keep doing something until we can do it without thinking.

passion is what separates "i wish" from "i must".

just as some people save their money to get what they want as opposed to continually gamble hoping to get rich.

i also consider myself a hack.

but that is a good thing , it means i am not done learning.

i don't want a title, i want to know and understand what to do and to be able to do what i feel.

it is passion.

 

[Billster]

I think that there is both talent and skill. The hard part is applying your skills to something you are talented at.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Well first of all your not a ass hole Paul!! that's for sure! It's a passion playing the guitar well or any instrument for that matter, I think you can be born with a propensity to do well in music. At the same time I always had a passion for math and science I'm told from a very early age, and music also. I say this about the born tendency to do well in music because of all the examples that I personally know of. Allot of guys don't like to say that music or guitar playing is a competition, I understand this completely but in my neck of the woods it was and IS very competitive if you want to be the guitar player in really good bands, it's just how it is. So through out my career as a guitar player I have seen guys that practice like maniacs, do all the right things and other guys blow right past them. I was this way always, around here, I remember other guys starting out on the guitar, all working very very hard to become good enough to audition for good bands, and I saw people just go stellar in their progress, I was one of those, while others just could not keep up no matter how much work they put in. So....there is something to the natural ability to learn and perform at high levels. To your point though Paul, yes I have people say that all the time, and I tell them it just takes tons of very hard work, mind numbing repetition and concentration...and it does, if you wnat to be a outstanding player.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I get so tired of people coming up to me and saying "You are so lucky to be so talented. I wish I had your talent!" Even though I think of myself as mostly a hack, where were these people when I was practicing 8 hours a day?

 

Yeah, I agree. There's lots of people out there who claim they could be a great whatever (novelist, painter, musician, whatever) but they never seem to have the time to write The World's Greatest Novel. And of course, the answer to all these people's problem is very simple. Just make the fricking time! If those people were serious about their creativity, they would MAKE the time to write/play/whatever.

 

As Shakespeare put it, "Nothing comes from nothing". If you want to be Great (with caps), you have to do the work.

[Bluesape]

Hate to wear the nanny hat again, here, but, people's kids read these threads.

[Fumblyfingers]

I get what you are saying that you put in a lot of hard work to perfect your passion. But being able to play an instrument well requires talent to begin with...some level of it. A tone deaf person with no rhythm has no musical talent and no amount of passion is going to transform that person into a guitar hero.

 

Some people are more talented than others. I understood him to say that some people are paid miserably given the amount of talent they have. I think he stated that correctly.

 

As to where talent comes from...for sure you are born with it, so it seems it is a gift from above....but that is another story.

 

You are born with the talent, if you recognize that or cannot escape it's pull on your life, the passion for it leads you to pursue it and work at it and develop good skills with it.

 

And Kramer I disagree about the time issue. I believe I could write something of worth.However, I have had 2 kids late in life....I HAVE to bring in a fair amount of cash to provide for now and their future and pay the mortgage. I choose to live in one of the most expensive area's in the country.Music, as absolutely HARD as I tried for the better part of 30 years, did not pan out in the sense of big money....and I wonder how many have put in as much as I have for so long....talk about dedicated....but being as I have no higher education I have to work a job with lot's of overtime...so...after a 10-12 hour day then going to pick up my girls, sitting and doing homework or Kumon with my eldest while I feed my smallest who is going off and then making dinner for the missus and I at least 1/2 the time and doing dishes and all the other chores....I am so damn tired by the time they are in bed that al I can do is veg in front of my computer or TV and lately even passing out before 9pm quite often.

 

Please tell me how I am just supposed to just make the f.... time?

 

Get real

[PBBPaul]

Hate to wear the nanny hat again, here, but, people's kids read these threads.

 

My apologies. I'll behave.

[PBBPaul]

I get what you are saying that you put in a lot of hard work to perfect your passion. But being able to play an instrument well requires talent to begin with...some level of it. A tone deaf person with no rhythm has no musical talent and no amount of passion is going to transform that person into a guitar hero.

 

Some people are more talented than others. I understood him to say that some people are paid miserably given the amount of talent they have. I think he stated that correctly.

 

As to where talent comes from...for sure you are born with it, so it seems it is a gift from above....but that is another story.

 

You are born with the talent, if you recognize that or cannot escape it's pull on your life, the passion for it leads you to pursue it and work at it and develop good skills with it.

 

I don't know if I agree about being born with it. I listen to old tapes of myself and let me tell you... I had NO sense of rhythm or tone early on. What rhythm and tone sense I have has come from hours of listening and practice.

 

It's not about being paid well for it either but rather recognition for time and effort spent. I could have stopped growing musically years ago if power chords were my thing but chose to keep working at it. I think that the attitude of "he's lucky, he was born with that" degrades the appreciation and value of not just music but all art.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Naaa, it's true- you're an @$$4073. And so are these whiny people and their kids that are always reading things where good people want to use bad words!!

 

Sorry, I just had to blurt out something stupid there- did I succeed?

 

I know what you mean, Paul, about people only going so far with verbal praise, then basically still taking it for granted.

[Fumblyfingers]

I don't know if I agree about being born with it. I listen to old tapes of myself and let me tell you... I had NO sense of rhythm or tone early on. What rhythm and tone sense I have has come from hours of listening and practice.

 

Well I do.

 

talent

n 1: natural qualities or talents [syn: endowment, gift, natural

endowment]

2: a person who possesses unusual innate ability in some field

or activity

 

Any endeavour is going to require hard work and diligent practise and applying one's self to become good at it. You have the talent to play an instrument, to be a musician....and you have worked your ass off to develop that and get better at it, driven by your passion for music..

 

A machinist will require years of training and practical work to become good and then after years of manual settings etc that person might suddenly find himself having to learn CNC computers in addition faces new challenges. His talent has opened new doors as management has seen he has the right stuff. The passion provides the vehicle for him to dedicate himself.

 

But if the person does not have a propensity for that kind of work.....he is lost....that propensity is having a talent...you either do or don't.

 

Then again like Jimi said.....

 

You gotta find yourself first, and then your talent

you gotta find yourself first, and then your tool

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

And Kramer I disagree about the time issue. I believe I could write something of worth.However, I have had 2 kids late in life....I HAVE to bring in a fair amount of cash to provide for now and their future and pay the mortgage. I choose to live in one of the most expensive area's in the country... Please tell me how I am just supposed to just make the f.... time?

 

You're a very good guitarist. You HAVE put in the time.

 

If you haven't made it big, it's because either there was something wrong with your self-marketing or the chances simply weren't there. But HAD they been, you would have been able to make the most of them because you put the time into being a real guitarist.

 

That's very different to people that SAY they want to make music, only they never find the time to learn and to become good players.

[Compact Diss]

Constant vigilance and anyone can learn to play the guitar. Being good at it, or being superior to others who play, I feel like it's a personal thing. Have to put in the time to see the results. It is not easy; have to have it in your mind, the willingness to commit to learning each piece slowly until you can play it in time. I have years to go before I am a successful player. Each day I work at it gets me closer to being where I want to be.

 

Is the kid who quit school, never worked, played guitar in his basement all day instead of being responsible better than the kid who went to school worked part time, took lessons and practiced 2 hours a day? Depends on where they are on the charts or on MTVs rotation I guess but both would say they worked harder than the other for it.

 

I see a lot of local Jazz bands, people who will never be on the billboard charts but some of the music they put out is better than anything Im hearing on the radio at times. Rambling and probably off topic but I should really be sleeping.

Im all about loving the guitar, I have learned that if you want something in life then you have to be willing to put the time and effort in, and prepare to sacrifice other things. I can choose to sit on the net, or I can choose to pick up my guitar. That goes for anything I want to accomplish, losing weight, more college, anything. Just do it I guess

 

Just like PBBPaul said:

 

I think passion is a more appropriate word. I don't speak for you all but it's passion that drives me.

 

 

[Hardtail]

I'll go with the passion thing. It's passion that gets me up to practice EVERY DAY at 3:30 AM. It's passion that makes me practice nearly 25 hours on the weekend (unless I have a gig or the wife drags me out of the house to be sociable).

 

Also... I play EXACTLY what I want to play. I don't try to learn EVERYTHING. That's not important to me.

 

Finally, I push myself nearly every practice. I don't just sit down and waste time playing the stuff I can already play well.

 

So... passion and hard work... and time. That's what I say.

[picker]

passion is what separates "i wish" from "i must".

 

"Zan, my man, you done slobbered a bibful there.

[Eric Iverson]

Thomas Edison (the great inventor) said it was "1% inspiration and 99% perspiration."

 

The great ones make it seem like it was the reverse, and clearly the public knows nothing about the work involved.

 

Of course, if a person just plays the same things year after year, they've basically learned it and the perspiration quotient diminishes.

[Billster]

Thinking some more, I still say that there is both talent and skill.

 

Look at the people who achieve a measure of success and then flame out on drugs or booze. Then look at people who become successful despite such problems.

 

Or, look at people who achieve a measure of success and can't sustain that early success for any non-toxic reason. Then look at people who maybe never vaulted to mega-stardom, but 20 years later you look back and say "Wow, they've done a lot!"

 

Either raw talent or applied skill will get you to a certain level, but to combine both is probably the best ticket.

[Wolfgangsta]

My wife says that she hopes our 6 month old gets my musical ability. I tell her that I don't really think that I have much 'musical ability', I just have good hand-eye coordination and manual dexterity, and a passion for the guitar. Over the years, this passion has given me desire to push myself to learn to play what I hear.

This may not be a good analogy, but Larry Bird was a phenomenal basketball with average physical skills. His passion for the game and his desire to improve drove him to practice countless hours. The practice resulted in him developing the talent and skill to become a better player.

So, I think whether you call it a talent or a skill, I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Diss and say it all comes down to passion and desire. Just my two cents.

[Guitarzannie]

This may not be a good analogy, but Larry Bird was a phenomenal basketball with average physical skills. His passion for the game and his desire to improve drove him to practice countless hours. The practice resulted in him developing the talent and skill to become a better player.

 

No, I think it is a good analogy. I am not a basketball fan, but I have heard the same story about Larry Bird.

 

Michelle

[pauldil]

Let's change Lovett's statement to read .earn livings that are so modest in relation to their passion

 

Well, that doesnt sound right to me either. 'Passion is not the only ingredient in talent. That riff that took you 900 times to perfect may take me 9000 times before I can play it right. Does it make me more passionate because I stuck with it longer in order to learn it? Or are you more gifted because in the time I learned the one riff, you've learned 10 others? And regardless, after weve both learned the one riff, if we were to play it at the same time, wouldnt a listener think that we are both of equal talent in that instant?

 

Whenever I hear the word talent, I really think of a combination of things that include (among other things) passion, natural ability, commitment & discipline. Some of these are done consciously, some subconsciously - if you really love doing something, you may not realize how much time you actually spend doing it. Im sure weve all heard people who love to sing but cant carry a tune (passion with no natural ability). Or people who are pretty good at something but just never committed to developing their natural ability. Or someone who has the passion, natutral ability and the commitment, but lacks the discipline to focus and can't seem get to the next level. Talent is the sum of many things and to me, the appropriate word.

 

Paul

[miroslav]

A skill can be learned.

 

Talent is what allows you to use that skill in a creative way...especially when talking about the arts.

 

Learning the skill of playing guitar playing is NOT the same as learning the skill of bulldozer operation.

Also...there is little inherent creative talent involved in applying those bulldozer operation skills. It's 99.99% learned mechanics...

 

Applying guitar skills so that they communicate certain feelings and images requires some degree of "born with" talent...and you can see that from the many players who are very proficient, but can't really play with any sense of feeling or creativity...

it's all mechanics to them.

 

[fantasticsound]

I'm with Billster and Lister, talent and skill are required to succeed at anything as complex as the physical and mental challenges of being an accomplished musician.

 

You can overcome some lack of innate talent through persistence, but not entirely. Some people are simply wired to accept the knowledge and physical skills better than others. It's like comparing me to an NFL lineman. All the workouts, practice and training won't ever have made me big enough to butt heads with lineman at that level. Physical and mental limitations aren't always that obvious, though.

 

But to your point... I don't know where I stand on musicians getting royalties. I mean, obviously I'd love for them to get a piece of that pie but is there good reason for Congress to be stepping in?? My understanding is they've been hired to play for a recording and that's that. If they want royalties shouldn't they be negotiating that with those who hire musicians for recordings? It's not a matter of skill or time put into learning their craft... It's about negotiating payment for use of those skills. I don't think anyone thinks they deserve music free because a musician is innately talented vs. being a musical hack who worked through some of their inherent limitations.

 

There are talented people in every field who won't be paid, in their lifetime, commensurate with their skill and investment in learning and practicing that skill. What does that have to do with getting paid or not getting paid royalties?

 

I remember 10 years ago a petition was posted in the common office at MARS music. Some group was attempting to make songwriter royalties un-taxable income. Their arguement went to the idea most songwriters, if they're lucky, get a cut that pays them a considerable amount of money but even those with a bonafide hit might only be that successful once and their songwriting income should be viewed over the course of a 20+ year career. Otherwise, a $200,000 return on a song might turn into a total of $10,000/yr over the course of their career.

 

I felt like slapping someone!

 

If you're a songwriter and can't sell your songs for enough to put food on the table and clothes on yourself and your family then maybe you're in the wrong business. Even if your songs are beautiful, enjoyable masterpieces if you can't make money from them then... you can't make money from them. Why the heck should other taxpayers subsidize your refusal to wake up and get a job that pays the bills?

 

In essence they were saying those royalties are the bulk of songwriter income, but songwriters should have to pay tax on them while the rest of us pay federal income tax.

 

 

[fantasticsound]

This may not be a good analogy, but Larry Bird was a phenomenal basketball with average physical skills. His passion for the game and his desire to improve drove him to practice countless hours. The practice resulted in him developing the talent and skill to become a better player.

 

No, I think it is a good analogy. I am not a basketball fan, but I have heard the same story about Larry Bird.

 

Michelle

 

That's very astute.

 

Michael Jordan had the same issues... he didn't make the team his freshman year of high school.

 

And to extend the analogy, even after he developed one of the most amazing physical talents basketball has ever seen into a nearly unstoppable force, teams eventually found ways of shutting him down at the expense of leaving others open. The interesting point is, the Bulls didn't begin winning championships until after Michael's physical ability began to wain just enough for him to be held by defenses. Most players, even on that level, lose their edge and advantage when that happens. Instead of accepting that Michael developed another skill that became even more effective than charging through players to dunk or layup. He began depending on a fade away shot from outside that pushed him back as so far an angle even the tallest players in the league had difficulty blocking him. That's when the Bulls went on to win 6 championships in 8 years. (And the likelyhood is they'd have been at the top those other two years had Michael not retired to attempt a baseball career.)

 

He took amazing physical ability and worked his butt off in several stages to become part of a championship team.

[Trucks]

It is commented more than once that Jimi would often get up with his guitar, and fall asleep with it in his hands, amp still on.. Still in his clothes... Did he have talent? Sure he did.. But he had passion too... Now that is what makes a stellar guitarist.. A combination of talent AND passion.

[miroslav]

It is commented more than once that Jimi would often get up with his guitar, and fall asleep with it in his hands, amp still on.. Still in his clothes...

 

Could that have been a byproduct of the drugs...?

[Trucks]

lol you know what I mean! Wise guy!

[picker]

Well, there has to be some talent involved, however minimal. I've known people who couldn't tell if their guitar was in tune or not. They can work at it as much as they like and they are still gonna suck. And, I have met people who worked no harder at it than I did, but just caught on quicker, or were able to take it farther.

 

Music is not a zero-sum game. Some are just gonna be better at it than others in one way or another. I will say that I believe the really phenomenal players work harder at it than lot of their peers, but there had to be some talent there in the first place or they wouldn't have gotten past tuning the silly thing up right.

 

A skill is just a developed talent. There are a lot of potential guitar heroes out there, guys and gals who have enough talent to do amazing things. But potential ain't worth squat if it goes undeveloped.

[fantasticsound]

And neither get you paid unless you can market that skill to those willing to pay. How much they pay is entirely up to how much they think your skill is worth and how little you're willing to value your skill.

 

Remember, Willie Nelson made $50 off Crazy I'm sure he'd like to reap the benefits off owning that song but he sold it outright, at a time when the name Willie Nelson didn't mean squat in the music business.

[Guitarzannie]

Well, there has to be some talent involved, however minimal. I've known people who couldn't tell if their guitar was in tune or not. They can work at it as much as they like and they are still gonna suck. And, I have met people who worked no harder at it than I did, but just caught on quicker, or were able to take it farther.

 

Music is not a zero-sum game. Some are just gonna be better at it than others in one way or another. I will say that I believe the really phenomenal players work harder at it than lot of their peers, but there had to be some talent there in the first place or they wouldn't have gotten past tuning the silly thing up right.

 

A skill is just a developed talent. There are a lot of potential guitar heroes out there, guys and gals who have enough talent to do amazing things. But potential ain't worth squat if it goes undeveloped.

 

ITA!

 

But I'm in trouble though -- I can tell when a guitar is out of tune, but I can't tell when it is precisely in tune, if that makes any sense . I attribute that more to the fact that I have tinnitus and some hearing loss.

 

One thing that I have observed is that singer/guitar players often have one talent that dominates. Usually if one is a great player, then the vocals are average. If one is a great singer, then they are usually an average guitar player. It is quite rare to find one who is both. This is JMHO, of course.

 

Michelle

[Eric Iverson]

And there is more than one kind of talent.

 

Some guys just have natural digital dexterity. Some quickly learn to play by ear and take things off records. Some are natural rhythm players. Some have a natural feel for classical music. Some are natural improvisers and can play different solos off the cuff and keep your interest that way. Some are great at writing. And the whole range of combinations. Not too many excel at everything; but it is possible to be versatile and to be a good overall player and musician, and excel at certain things.

 

And some people just have a very nice musicality in their playing, even if what they do isn't IMPRESSIVE so to speak, it's enjoyable to hear!

 

And there are people that are just a pleasure to play with in a band because they blend well and have good rhythm!