Swapping Instruments On Stage

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I went to see this really good band on Saturday. Basically, they're a sort of stoner take on the post-rock, "soundscapes" thing, but with a lot of ethnicky instruments like sitar and various percussion things and some weird arab looking stringed things.

 

http://www.myspace.com/anemeraldcity

 

They were quite good, but they had this annoying tendency to switch intruments between songs. Which meant that in between practically every song, you had to wait until they all shifted around and took up some other instrument, or swapped intruments with some other guy, made sure everything was in tune and THEN the song would start. When there's six guys on a crowded stage, moving around was a bit of a job, too.

 

Now... people that swap instruments on stage are one of my pet peeves, perhaps it's because I'm quite proud of being a bass player and wouldn't want to be anything else. And I wouldn't trust anyone else to play my basslines while I had a play on somebody's guitar or piano or whatever. And there IS that pesky thing of having to wait in between songs while the setlist's flow goes out the window. And then you listen to the song, wondering what the hell was so difficult about the various instrumental parts that guys couldn't be expected to learn them, necessitating an instrument swap.

 

So if you guys swap instruments on stage, what's the attraction? Why do you do it?

[jeremy c]

Because they can.

 

I've played with lots of multi-instumentalists. All the wind instrument players I work with play multiple instruments: clarinet, flute, tenor sax, alto sax, soprano sax, even ney and recorder. Some of these guys double on keyboards, too. Nice guys to have in the band. But I don't think that's what you're talking about: I'm talking about one guy with a rack of instruments and we rarely even notice what instrument he has picked up until we hear it.

 

I used to double on guitar and bass and would switch off with the regular guitarist when I wanted to play guitar. It was usually on a song which I had written. You are right, the bass line suffered. But at the time, I don't think I could have sung my own song and played the bassline at the same time.

 

The last time I switched to guitar was to sing a request: American Pie. It was a lot easier to play and sing that song on guitar with no rehearsal than it would have been to pull off with the bass in my hands. The audience was happy, so I guess it worked. A few weeks later the request was Birthday by the Beatles and it was easier to stay on bass.

 

Another time I was in a band and the keyboard player and I switched just for fun (we were playing Louie Louie at the time). The bandleader noticed about half way through and starting yelling at us. What was the big deal?

 

It sounds like the band you saw just doesn't have the instrument switching (and tuning) very well organized. If there were a fixed number of instruments on the stage equal to the number of players, it must have had something to do with what songs people specialized in. If there were a lot more instruments that players, it was to give the band a different sound. It's pretty cool when a couple of people suddenly pick up horns and the band which was a guitar band turns into a horn band.

 

The worst case was a band I was in with two acoustic guitars and me. Each guy had a six string and a twelve string. I believe that we spent more time tuning than actually playing. (It was in the days before anyone had a tuner.)

[theTragicRich]

I know I've talked about this before, but the punk band I was in previously, the guitarist/singer and drummer switched back and forth. We were all multi-instrumentalists and they even offered to let me play guitar or drums or whatever on whatever song if I wanted to. I didn't take them up on it. I like to play 1 instrument when I join a band. Makes it easier for me to know my role and also makes it easier hauling around gear and setting stuff up. Anyways...

 

Since these guys wrote their own songs, they wanted to play guitar and sing, and then the other guy would do the drums. In the beginning, we would play short sets, 3 songs a piece. Which just seemed to make us lose momentum. And if I feel like I'm losing momentum, then I have to imagine so did the crowd. As we got more and more songs incorporated, we (they) decided to make 2 separate bands and we'd alternate which ones played the gig. That made it much easier except when we played longer gigs when of course 20 mins of one set, then switch, and 20 mins of the next which to me still felt awkward.

 

So I understand where you are coming from. As a member of the audience, you want to be entertained, not watching ring around the rosey or musical 'chairs'.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Jeremy: I agree, horn players picking up a different sax is not what I meant, that's fine by me. And I suppose keayboard players swap instruments all the time, it's just that because they're all stacked up you don't notice them doing it.

 

I meant more this:

 

So I understand where you are coming from. As a member of the audience, you want to be entertained, not watching ring around the rosey or musical 'chairs'.

 

which is precisely what I meant!

 

But yeah, I can see how strumming a guitar while singing is easirt than playing bass while singing. I hadn't thought of that.

[picker]

I used to be in a three-piece band where me and Steve, the other guy, traded off playing guitar and bass. He played guitar and I played bass on the songs he wrote, and vice versa for my songs. It extended our versatility, and kept us happy because we both enjoyed playing bass and guitar. Eventually we started having a fourth guy, some guitarists and some bassists, and that worked out okay, especially one of the bass players. But it sure was a lot of fun when it was just the three of us and Steve and I took turns playing bass.

[Danzilla]

I switch between different basses; and on some songs play "guitar on a stick" and bass. Since I make the set lists, I can plug the switching at the right place to interrupt the flow as little as possible.

 

Sure, if need be, I could do it all on one bass; and just not do the acoustic guitar texturing; but it wouldn't be the same. I like mixing things up.

[jar546]

I am a relatively new student to the bass but still understand what you are talking about. I think the time wasted doing that would be very annoying and take away from the whole experience. Sometimes I think that people get to complicated with their artistry (is that the right word?) and detract from the performance.

 

Since I am new I am reluctant to try something that I know how to play. I can do the keyboard for Linkin Park "What I've Done" and would still like to play the bass too. There is only a small area where they are both needed at the same time and I was wondering how to get around that with the switch. I could still wear my bass while I play.

 

Anyone else so this with both instruments at the same time?

[DanYmaL X]

Generally I play one or the other, electric, acoustic or bass during a service, (that's all I'm playing these days,) but when I had that lovely Steinberger doubleneck guitar/bass it allowed me to play the odd solo or chords where needed... and it made for a great conversation piece after gigs too.

That was kind of cool.

Perhaps every band that wants to make their audience wait through the switching mess should consider doublenecks... maybe the extra weight will bring them to their senses...

 

 

DX

 

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I can do the keyboard for Linkin Park "What I've Done" and would still like to play the bass too. There is only a small area where they are both needed at the same time and I was wondering how to get around that with the switch. I could still wear my bass while I play.

 

Anyone else so this with both instruments at the same time?

 

Erm... no. Not me.

 

But I guess that if the bassline was simple enough, and your fingers were strong enough, you could PROBABLY, MAYBE do the bassline as hammered notes. Perhaps.

 

I used to be in a three-piece band where me and Steve, the other guy, traded off playing guitar and bass. He played guitar and I played bass on the songs he wrote, and vice versa for my songs. It extended our versatility, and kept us happy because we both enjoyed playing bass and guitar.

 

Mmm. Had it been my band, I suppose I would have organized stuff into two "mini sets" within the main set, to minimize the swapping disruption as much as possible. What did you guys do?

[TreR1969]

It's funny you mention this problem...during our show two nights ago our manager/rhythm guitarist changed up our set list quite a bit and did not consult with our lead guitarist...what resulted was our lead guitarist having to change guitars for nearly every song during the first set because of the different tunings and/or tones each song required. We actually started laughing about it after several songs. However, it was a relatively quick process, unlike what you described seeing. We just thought it was funny to see our lead guitarist running across stage after every song to swap axes.

[Eric VB]

The Romantics do the swapping thing and it works fine for them. Basically, the drummer isn't swapping so he does not pause between songs; one song ends and he immediately starts the beat for the next one. This covers up the break in the action. Meanwhile the techs come on stage to facilitate the swap; a new instrument comes out and the previous instrument comes off (for tuning, etc.). Everything has a wireless transmitter so there's no cord swapping. If it goes a little long one of the guys can chat up the audience while just the drums are playing. When everyone's set, they start the song. And they do keep the swapping to a minimum.

 

jar546, get the Rush in Rio DVD or similar and see how Geddy Lee handles playing keys and bass in the same song.

 

I'm not familiar with the Linkin Park song you're talking about. If you can't play two lines at the same time -- on two instruments or one -- you have to change the arrangement. The simplest change is to just not play one of the parts. A little more challenging is coming up with an arrangement where enough of each part is played so the audience gets the impression both parts were played. This is usually done on just one instrument, and the recently featured "beat box" singers show you how it's done, alternating their voice between singing and percussive sounds.

 

If you're going to play keys and both hands are tied up then most people would look to using foot pedals. These are keyboards you play with your foot (or feet).

 

When I do a solo show I don't think it's too distracting when I switch instruments. It helps break up the monotony of, say, having every song be vocals and guitar. I get good response when I put the guitar down and play a solo bass instrumental or grab the mandolin. Then when that gets old I can go back to guitar.

 

With my band the only swapping right now is whether or not the lead singer will play guitar or not. (Unless you count swapping lead vocal duties.) We're going to put in a couple of tunes where I play mandolin and she plays bass but I think we will put those at the start of a set and follow it with a song that starts with guitar/drums so there'll be plenty of time to put the mandolin down and grab my bass back.

 

Instrument swapping should be done with minimal down time.

 

Also, I prefer to change arrangements for the most part. I might try playing both the bass line and the 13th guitar part (or keys part) on bass simultaneously. In one song I do kind of like KF3's suggestion and tap a horn line and bass line at the same time. In another I hit the synth effect and play a keyboard lead.

 

I have less tolerance when there's a break in the action because someone needs to perform a complex change-up on a piece of technology. It puts me off somewhat like how cell phone users do when they're talking on their phone instead of interacting with the people around them.

[Davo-London]

I have to do this at church as I play drums and bass sometimes if the other drummer is not available. I play drums on the upbeat praise and bass on the slower worship. There is no rway around this. My worship leader plays keys and will play an interlude whilst I change. She'll then look and see if I'm ready then she will launch into the next song.

 

Probably looks crass but hey ...

 

Davo

[Trucks]

Maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if they had had some banter with the audience between instrument swaps.

[jar546]

Kramer Said: MAYBE do the bassline as hammered notes. Perhaps.

 

Great idea. Either that or split the keyboard and do the beginning bass line on that until the keyboard intro is over.

 

The keyboard is hidden in the background quietly during the rest of the song so maybe a loop on the keys would work.

 

Here is the song:

 

[The Bear Jew]

Instrument changes are cool as long as they don't interrupt the set. When it's done quickly and efficiently, audience members often find this an entertaining thing: "Hey, wow! He plays drums, too! Neat!"

 

However, if it takes forever to get it done (between walking around, handing guitars off and tuning) it's not really worth the effort--then it's a momentum-killer and a dead spot in the show. People didn't pay to see you wander around and tune a guitar. They paid to see a band play live music.

 

Ninety perecent of the audience members won't even notice the difference in sound when you switch instruments, so there really better be a good reason for switching. Of course, once again, if you can do it quickly, it's no problem.

[music-man]

Now... people that swap instruments on stage are one of my pet peeves, perhaps it's because I'm quite proud of being a bass player and wouldn't want to be anything else. And I wouldn't trust anyone else to play my basslines while I had a play on somebody's guitar or piano or whatever. And there IS that pesky thing of having to wait in between songs while the setlist's flow goes out the window. And then you listen to the song, wondering what the hell was so difficult about the various instrumental parts that guys couldn't be expected to learn them, necessitating an instrument swap.

 

I used to play in a band where the drummer would switch between kit and djembe; I'd switch between cello and bass; the guitar player would switch between acoustic and electric. For a while we really worried about people like you, out in the crowd, gnashing their teeth because we were "wasting time" switching instruments. We rehearsed our switches, would often have one person switch during the tail end of one song - another might switch during the intro to the next tune, etc. so that we wouldn't have breaks.

 

At some point we realized that most people actually like to have a break between songs, so that they can talk to their mates.

 

As for why we did it ... One thing is that we were only a three-piece band, so obviously we had to switch instruments if we were going to incorporate more than just drums, guitar and bass. And most people really liked that within one set, we were able to change things up and give variety to the sound. Sounds like musicians in the band you saw (having "ethnicky" instruments and "weird arab looking stringed things") was actually switching between instruments. Interesting that you get down on bands that can change up their sounds by using more than one set of instruments - I love when bands do it.

 

Even where people rotate between the same instruments (drummer shifts to guitar, bass player moves over to drums, guitarist picks up a bass), it has nothing to do with whether a part is "difficult" or not. You apparently concede (being unwilling to allow others to play your bass parts) that one musician will play a part differently than another. It's like hearing a different band play - and it just might be that band B is better on a given song than band A.

 

... having said all that, I understand the frustration of sitting around in the crowd while waiting between songs, and there are things that can be done to mininize the downtime, which maybe the show you saw needed more of.

[Chewbubba]

In the C/BG I play with, several of us change instruments (not with each other, btw) for various songs. For instance, on one song with a DropD, instead of tuning down, I just switch basses. And one of the girls switches between banjo and dobro a couple of times in the set.

 

To compensate for the downtime, whoever isn't switching at the moment plays a groove of some sort related to the previous song or to the next. This is all planned ahead of time and keeps things moving without the "dead time".

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Interesting that you get down on bands that can change up their sounds by using more than one set of instruments - I love when bands do it.

 

Actually, I went out of my way to see them BECAUSE they had a whole arsenal of weird ethnicky things. I just got bored with all the downtime during changes.

 

 

 

You apparently concede (being unwilling to allow others to play your bass parts) that one musician will play a part differently than another.

 

Kinda sorta. It'd be flattering to think nobody else could play my parts, but hey, the world is full of cover bands playing note perfect renditions of lines by much better musicians than I'll EVER be, so I doubt there's any such thing as a line that could be played by no-one else, if they take the time to learn it.

 

It's like hearing a different band play - and it just might be that band B is better on a given song than band A.

 

Yeah, that's why I described it as "one of my pet peeves", there's nothing terribly RATIONAL about my rant. I really don't mind if bands sound different on each song (and isn't that a bit of what can happen if you use enough effects?) I was talking more about down-time.

 

I've had to think a lot about this before posting, and I suppose that if I had to REALLY explain my distaste for instrument swapping, it's that I take bass very, very seriously ("heart and soul of a rock and roll band", "the shoulders that carry the music", blah, blah, blah) and to see people glibly switch from one instrument to another somehow makes me feel that they are cheapening what (to me), feels like a sacred trust. In my mind, if people can swap and change, then playing bass somehow becomes as mechanical and faceless as working at McDonald's. "Faceless" is not the right word, but I can't find the word, for now.

 

It's not rational, of course, and there's no way on earth that I could defend my position rationally, but that's how I've felt practically since day #1 as a bass player. Not that I disrespect people here that Do swap instruments, of course, but it's something I could never do.

 

 

[music-man]

I think I understand.

 

But consider this - the friend I consider to have the greatest appreciation for great bass playing ... is a drummer. He's a horrid bass player (a great drummer), but he's someone who has introduced me to some really great bass players and parts. Bassists aren't the only ones who value bass.

 

And conversely, a bassist who plays a kazoo isn't necessarily inclined to play his bass like he plays kazoo. So there's no cheapening or mechanical going on ... if it makes you feel any better, when I play cello or guitar on a gig, I assume a completely different role and musical personality than the one I have as a bassist. The instrument feels different, it speaks differently, plays a different role in a tune, occupies a different harmonic and rhythmic space, etc. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't sound the same on bass as I do on other instruments.

 

But anyway, to your earlier point, too much downtime in a gig CAN be death. If you like the band, it might be worth letting them know you like their music, but that the downtime killed the set.

[Roscoe East]

I went to see this really good band on Saturday. Basically, they're a sort of stoner take on the post-rock, "soundscapes" thing

 

I have no idea what that means. I suspect it might be something I'd like..in fact, I suspect it might be something I've already done! But I really can't tell from that description. Are "stoner", "post-rock" & "soundscapes" really commonly used descriptive terms?

 

They were quite good, but they had this annoying tendency to switch intruments between songs. Which meant that in between practically every song, you had to wait until they all shifted around and took up some other instrument, or swapped intruments with some other guy, made sure everything was in tune and THEN the song would start. When there's six guys on a crowded stage, moving around was a bit of a job, too.

 

Now... people that swap instruments on stage are one of my pet peeves

 

Ah, one of my pet peeves too... not the swapping instruments, but the wasting time. I *hate* bands that can't sustain flow in their sets.

 

 

And then you listen to the song, wondering what the hell was so difficult about the various instrumental parts that guys couldn't be expected to learn them, necessitating an instrument swap.

 

So if you guys swap instruments on stage, what's the attraction? Why do you do it?

 

Well, now I'm gonna do it just to piss off guys like you!

 

It's not about "why couldn't the keyboard player play that keyboard part, why did the sax player have to pick up the Dukey Stick?" It's about someone else (or several someones) bringing something to the band that they didn't get when they were manning their rote instrumental assignments. It's about stirring the pot.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I think I understand.

 

Oh, good. After I posted that I wondered if I wasn't being a bit too weird.

 

But consider this - the friend I consider to have the greatest appreciation for great bass playing ... is a drummer. He's a horrid bass player (a great drummer), but he's someone who has introduced me to some really great bass players and parts. Bassists aren't the only ones who value bass.

 

Oh, for sure. I didn't say my attitude was rational! And to be honest, I've taken "sabbaticals" to learn other instruments. In the end though, I realized that, no matter instrument I took up, I always ended up playing what (a couple of octaves down) would be considered basslines, so I came back to bass and my other instruments (except for my baritone guitar) gather dust.

 

 

 

 

I went to see this really good band on Saturday. Basically, they're a sort of stoner take on the post-rock, "soundscapes" thing

 

I have no idea what that means. I suspect it might be something I'd like..in fact, I suspect it might be something I've already done! But I really can't tell from that description. Are "stoner", "post-rock" & "soundscapes" really commonly used descriptive terms?

 

 

Well, that's why I included the link to their MySpace page, where like on most bands' MySpace pages, you can actually hear their stuff.

 

http://www.myspace.com/anemeraldcity

 

"Post-Rock" is a pretty well established stream of electric music. The term has been used since the early 90s.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-rock

 

For another post-rock band, check out these guys, esp. the track "Science".

 

http://www.myspace.com/thedukesofleisure

[Nicklab]

I think that *sometimes* swapping instruments can come across as good showmanship. That is, provided that the people playing the swapped instruments are as capable on the other instrument as they might be on their chosen instrument. Too much of this could get really annoying really fast.

 

As for switching basses during a set? I used to bring as many as 4 basses to some gigs. No more of that. Now if I play an original gig the most I will bring is two, and that's more of a case of having a backup on hand rather than something I switch to as part of the show.

[Davo-London]

I still think that fretted and fretless basses has to be an option at a gig.

 

Davo

[Nicklab]

I definitely agree on that. When I was backing a singer-songwriter the fretless used to come to every practice and every gig. It got used on a few of the songs. But I think that if the project you're playing in doesn't call for fretless, then why bring it?

[Steve Force]

Many songwriters, Neil Young comes to mind, change the guitar tuning to fit the song.

 

Two examples are Neil's "Cinnamon Girl" with a D A D G B D tuning, or "Harvest Moon" with a simpler D A D G B E tuning.

 

As a listener, would you rather wait for a guitar change or listen to someone change their guitar tuning between songs?

 

Another example is slide guitar, which is tuned differently than standard guitar.

 

Using cords with built-in mute switches (like Planet Waves) allows you to quickly switch instruments.

 

Works for Robben Ford.

[kerk]

People didn't pay to see you wander around and tune a guitar. They paid to see a band play live music.

 

Ninety perecent of the audience members won't even notice the difference in sound when you switch instruments, so there really better be a good reason for switching. Of course, once again, if you can do it quickly, it's no problem.

 

Agreed. I always thought it was more of an ego thing: 'Look, I have more than one guitar', or 'look, I play more than one instrument'. Or it just looks cool to have a music store on stage.

 

I never saw the Romantics, but from what Ric said, it sounds like they had a pretty good routine that avoided the dreaded 'dead air' while swapping.

 

Speaking of ego, I once went to see Mannasas (probably misspelled and I'm dating myself) in Germany. In the middle of the show, the band left the stage, except for Stephen Stills, and we had to listen to him do solo songs on piano, guitar, bango, and mandolin. Zzzzzzzzz. We were thankful he didn't play sitar.

[Steve Force]

Right. An ego thing--that's the ticket.

[Tom Capasso]

First, if KF was seeing a bunch of musicians switching places and swapping instruments between every (or almost every) song, that sounds disruptive. It would take more than a drum intro to pacify me. I can imagine instrument explanations, band history, and other well-conceived discussion might make it work.

 

In my band, I've switched but it's rare during a set. Our sax/harp guy does it seemlessly, but he isn't usually critical to the beginning of a song, and his worst sin is not finding the right harp (the sax is easy ). The guitarists almost always have guitars pre-tuned as needed, so it's a case of unplug/replug/check tuning. We also arrange the setlist to minimize these (our song list/setlist has a column in the spreadsheet for what tuning is used for each guitarist). And the singer knows that a guitar change is his time to do the "thanks for coming, take care of the bartenders" thing.

 

Tom

[tnb]

If you are going to switch instrument at a gig, you must make arrangements for the switch to happen as quickly as humanly possible. When I do show and I have to switch between instruments (tuba/upright, upright/electric, fretless/fretted) and the show is not about to wait for me to make the switch. The show goes on. If I don't make the switch in time, I will hear about it immediately after the show. Not making the switch in time MIGHT be funny once, but if it happens more than once, expect to be fired.

 

The tech crew actually built an upright stand for me so that I could do the tuba/upright switch during "Chicago - the Musical". It was big, clunky and heavy but quite functional. During another show, I simply wore my electric on my back while I played upright and when playing electric, I leaned the upright against something sturdy - I can't seem to remember what that was.

 

 

[Trucks]

Two examples are Neil's "Cinnamon Girl" with a D A D G B D tuning, or "Harvest Moon" with a simpler D A D G B E tuning.

 

As a listener, would you rather wait for a guitar change or listen to someone change their guitar tuning between songs?

 

I've seen both, with the guitar swapper he had a tech standing next to him with the guitar ready so he could just unplug and replug, so he will have a chat with the audience introduce the next song while re-pluggin'... And I have seen people tune-up between songs.

 

I preferred the quick swapout... The guit players that retune have to concentrate while re-tuning (I havent seen one of them use a tuner to speed things up a tiny bit either) so the banter is minimal and there is nothin but silence, THEN the song introduction... Just play somehting already!! :-)