SK Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 I just got a new FP4 a couple of weeks ago, and I'm overall extremely happy with it. But I just noticed there's a light clicking noise on some of the mid range black keys only. It's a mechanical noise coming from the action, and it's only on about 3 or 4 black keys only... the middle F# for example. It happens when I hit the keys with a little force - no clicking when played softly. The only time I've heard that sound on Roland keyboards in the past was on older models when the keys were ready to break. This is a newly designed action, so hopefully it's normal. But it doesn't sound like it and I didn't notice it a few days ago. I haven't banged on it or played that hard - I've just played it like a piano. It may be that the FP4 has a lighter action that won't hold up, but I sure hope that's not the case. Anyone here with an FP4 (FP7 or 700SX) who's noticed the same noise? Thought I'd ask here before I go through sending it back to Roland for service. First time I've posted a topic question... thanks a lot for any feedback. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billdar Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Well I just checked this out on my FP4, and the black keys generate an extremely quiet sound that the white keys don't. I hesitate to call it a clicking though. At least it's not a soprano click! Maybe "tenor" click is a better description. I never notice this while playing, and can barely notice it when the speakers are turned off. I would say that this isn't a serious issue. Heck, Jazz+ hasn't even noticed it! Cheers!Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finale Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Heck, Jazz+ hasn't even noticed it! :grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piano4U Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Yes, now that you mention it I notice it. There seems to be some side-to-side play in the black keys that appears to be somewhat related to this noise. I might guess this is inherent in the design of these keyboards. I actually notice it on many more of the black keys than what you mentioned. I'm going to guess the keys are a two piece design, like an outer shell covering an inner piece and the noise is created as the one piece "hits" the other. Not ideal but until you mentioned it, I never noticed it. My YouTube Videos My Lot2Learn Jazz Piano Web Site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Hey, thanks guys for checking your keyboards! BTW, I'm not an alarmist about minor things, but there is definitely something different about the black key action. At least a couple of you notice it to some extent, so it must be a universal thing as Piano4U suggested. And you're right - you'd never hear it when it's amplified. As long as it isn't a deteriorating condition, I'll ignore it. As opposed to a "tenor" click, mine has a high pitched "soprano" click - very noticeable on a few keys (seems louder than before) and I hope it doesn't get worse. The rest of the black keys have a soft "tenor" click - I'm not concerned about those at all. Best of luck to all of us on this one. (In the meantime, I'll pretend it's not there.) CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 My FP4 has developed the same problem on many of the black keys when I tap them lightly and quickly. I notice it when I am practicing quietly at home. This reminds me of what developed with my Kawai ES4 action and I very much suspect it's the same situation. The ES4 black keys are hollow and each one travels up and down over a vertical guide pin. They are inside the front of the keys, towards the player. White lithium grease is spread up and down and around the guide pins to make the move smoothly and too keep them quiet. The pins which are actually flat edged plastic posts erected vertically from the bed of the action assembly. The white keys do not use front guide pins. The problem occurs when the grease works its way down a guide pin and then the black key starts clacking against the side of the guide pin when you strike the with a certain quick and light touch. It's time to contact Roland and ask if they lubricate the front guide pins for the black keys with lithium grease. I opened up my ES4 and re-spread the lithium grease back up and around all the black keys pins and the clacking went away completely. It took over two hours and I photographed the whole job. It's my guess that the person who lubed the pins at the factory did not spread the grease well enough up and around the pins. I also suspect that the grease is thin enough so that it eventually works its way down the pins. I will re-lube my Roland once I can confirm that they do use lithium grease on the front guide pins and that it's not impossible to disassemble the black keys. Here is a LA number for Roland's technical support for digital pianos... 323-890-3744 Ext 2483 Hours:Monday through Friday7:30 am to 6pm Pacific TimeClosed for Lunch 1 pm to 2 pm Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Thanks, Jazz+. That makes sense. I will call Roland about it, and apparently you should too. When I find out more, I'll report back here. Now, I'm wondering what happens if it isn't fixed - will something eventually break, or will it only get noisier? I wouldn't be as concerned if I had had this keyboard for more than 2 WEEKS - it's a little early to be noticing this kind of stuff. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I ended up re-lubing all the black key guide pins in my ES4 myself which eliminated the clacking. I know a guy in England who went through the same thing with his ES4 and he actually told me how to do it. The photos I took when I opened and re-lubed my ES4 clearly documented the slipped grease, but Kawai representatives were not interested in the photos or learning about the problem. Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Hey, thanks for trying, and I'll call too. If this is a problem specific to the FP4 (I never heard it on my 700SX) there's no sense in reordering another with the same flaw. And I won't repair it myself, nor should we have to. I'd like to know what happens if it isn't fixed - over time, could it cause the keys or a guide pin to crack? If so, I'd like to see a company try to defend "acceptable" flaws in their products if they end up owing a customer a whole new keyboard. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 If the problem is what I suspect, that the grease is sliding down the vertical front guide pins of the black keys, then I guess it's not a matter of parts cracking but rather a problem of clacking noises (when the keys bumps against the pin) and a little bit of extra friction and wobbling resulting from a lack lubrication. Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Thanks Jazz+ - the man with the answers! From what you say, I'm glad it doesn't sound as serious. But any stress from friction can take a toll, and these keyboards aren't built to last very long. I'll let you know how my pow wow with Roland goes. Heck, they need to fix it anyway. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankie63 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Hello everybody, I'm from Italy and have noticed the same problem. I bought the FP4 on May but I cannot say if I have realized this trouble from the beginning. But I'm quite convinced it's increased during this 2 months. I usually play with headphone but when I take off it I'm very disturbed by this continous clicking. The problem is more evident when you play some fast piece. I think that it may become more and more evident for the black keys you use more frequently because I don't see this effect on the black keys in the very low and high range of the keyboard. On Friday I have sent the problem description to the italian technical support staff. I asked them if they know the problem or it is a problem of my FP4 only. And if the problem is a general problem I asked if they think it's a minor problem (i.e. that does not brings about a keyboard break). I'm still waiting for the answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Thanks frankie for posting about it, and welcome to the forum. It does seem to be the black keys that get played the most often. And now we know it's not an isolated problem. Please let us know anything you find out, as we'll report back here on what we find out too. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyMary Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I have a brand new FP-4 and it has this clacking noise too, precisely on few middle-range black keys. I suspect that the noise might develop onto all of the (black) keys, but this doesnt bother me at all- it's unnoticable when you play with enough volume ( I usually practice with about half the knob spin up). I have a several years old Yamaha synth which clacks and clicks on all keys. Yet it has never failed me, every key works perfectly, and when I play it I never notice clicking. Sure it can be easily fixed by applying new grease. I say forget about it. The problem is too minor to waste time on solving it. Stage: MOX6, V-machine, and Roland AX7 Rolls PM351 for IEMs. Home/recording: Roland FP4, a few guitars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billdar Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I would be willing to bet that an acoustic grand or upright would make noticeable clacking noises if the "sound" of the hammer striking the strings could be turned off! Cheers!Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 My question is how easy is it to get inside the FP4 and dislodge the black keys in order to re-lube the vertical front guide pins. Who will be the fist to discover that? Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 My question is how easy is it to get inside the FP4 and dislodge the black keys in order to re-lube the vertical front guide pins. Who will be the fist to discover that? We won't discover anything until Roland support reopens. They're closed today, probably for July 4th week. bloodymary, glad to hear it may not be serious and that it's not a problem for you. Still, not all clicking is equal on this, apparently it bothers some of us more. A friend heard it outside my front door today and said it sounded like I had a typewriter. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 SK, that's funny. Actually it sounds serious..!Don't be alarmed, but I'm trying to find more of your recordings. You didnt by any chance write a big band score for middle school kids, did you?? Hey, I like it, it's just not what I was expecting. "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 HA! Nope... wasn't me. But I know what you're talking about sue, some other guy has the same name on Google. (Maybe he gets requests for my stuff. I'd love to hear what he'd do with it with a middle school band.) I'm finishing up a CD (first one as "leader") so I'll be more 'public' in the future. Every CD I'm on up to now is on other people's projects, or people recorded some of my tunes without me on the recording. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Yeah, there's a few SK's out there! :grin: Really hope you bump your advertising campaign up a notch when that CD comes out. I don't want to miss it. "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 Thanks, I'll be sure and let you know, gangsu. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 dbl post Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 6, 2007 Author Share Posted July 6, 2007 OK, I reached Roland, and they 'kindly' told me they "don't address technical issues" and referred me to my local service center, via the Support page. Talked to the service center guy here, who was appalled Roland wouldn't discuss it, and he looked up all technical issues regarding the FP4 on the service center computer and found nothing reported about key clicking. I described the concern over lubrication, and he said the service center can fix that for me at no charge (covered by Roland) IF that's the problem. The service guy said there absolutely should be no clicking and that it should be fixed. He said lubrication should be done at the service center and that I shouldn't have to do it. So... this means we all may have to take our keyboards to our local Roland service centers and resolve the problem that way. If it's the lubrication defect that we suspect it is, the service center said Roland would take care of the bill. For those of us it concerns, I hope this helps. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Roland customer service discussed the clacking black keys with me yesterday and claimed they have entered it into their service notes . Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 everybody needs lubrication, cheers... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Motor_oil.jpg/225px-Motor_oil.jpg ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 , Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Every key has 3 grease points (back, middle and front). Since both local service centers have a 2-3 week minimum turn around time, I am doing the job myself. So I just called Roland Parts Dept. and they won't specify the type of grease they use other than it's $65 a tube, outrageous rip off! I'll use bicycle grease for $5. Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 11, 2007 Author Share Posted July 11, 2007 Hmm. The service center here told me they'd fix it, and "if it's a lubrication problem, it would be covered by Roland." So why would my service center say that - if lubrication wasn't an option? Sounds like that technician may be inexperienced. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted July 11, 2007 Author Share Posted July 11, 2007 You can ask the local service guy how to get a tube of that stuff... he can probably at least tell you that much. It might be a better price than from Roland. Then again, if we find time to take our keyboards in, it's (hopefully) fixed and it should be for free. (I don't care what they deny as long as they fix it.) CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Well, it's only a grease problem like I had with the ES4, there is a gob of grease that has slid down, or was not spread well at the factory, and is now around the bottom of the guide posts. It probably just needs to be spread evenly up and around the posts. Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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