Korg CX-3 Waterfall Keys (Looking at XK-1 vs. CX-3)

[jeffincltnc]

Here are some more updates tonight!

 

I played a gig tonight where the band coming after me had an XK-3 with a Motion Sounds ProX. Nice rig. The set up time was a lot more than I like. They let me play it for my gig and I enjoyed it.

 

I called my store and here's what I told them. I would be interested in paying in full for the new XK-3c right now, IF they would give me that floor model of the CX-3 or an Electro to use until the XK-3c comes in.

 

I know they really want to move the CX-3 floor model out. They would get paid in full from me if we agreed on a price. I would have the CX-3 to use until the XK-3C came, but I would not feel I was suffering on the Leslie sim of the XK-3 and buying it right before the big upgrade came out.

 

I don't know if they will go for that or not, but I did make the offer and there is no harm in asking.

 

 

Now, that also makes me think there is a very reasonable option in the $1600-1700 price range (i.e. price of a new Nord 73) and that is to get an XK-1 and pair it with a Motion Sound. I could get a Pro 3TM for $500 or less slightly used.

 

Seems to me that might be a nice rig?

 

The Electro is an option for its portability, flexibility and 73 keys... but the XK-1 through Motion Sound Pro 3TM or ProX would be a nice solution... just one I haven't played yet.

 

Anyone like or dislike the Motion Sound Pro stuff with the VASE III?

[jeffincltnc]

OK... sound the alarms! I am on my way to clonewheel heaven.

 

I have made up my mind!

 

Today I ordered a Hammond XK-1 and bought Eric's Motion Sound Pro3TM on eBay... nice to keep the gear "in the family!"

 

I'm looking forward to hopefully getting started on my Hammond clonewheel + Motion Sound experience live this weekend (blues band on Friday night, jazz/funk/rock on Saturday night)

 

Thank you to EVERYBODY who chimed in. I will miss the portability and flexibility of the Nord Electro 73 and all of the cool things it can do. It is a great board... but I think the XK-1 + Motion Sound will serve me well.

 

 

My new rig now will look like this:

 

Roland RD-700SX piano with SRX-12 (Electric Pianos) Expansion Card

 

Hammond XK-1

 

Motion Sound Pro 3TM

 

Traynor Keymaster K4

 

 

No problems!

[eric]

Congrats Jeff! I'm really happy to hear about your final decision and glad to be a part of it (though I wish we had connected on the Pro3TM before I put it on eBay).

 

I'll be shipping it off to you tomorrow and you'll surely have it in time for your upcoming weekend. Enjoy!

 

Regards,

Eric

[jook]

Congrats on your decision, and look forward to hearing from your impressions when you get the rig together.

[Mark Schmieder]

This has been a great and timely discussion. Due to how much trouble I'm having getting musical results out of Native Instruments B4 II combined with the Yamaha CS6x as a controller, I have decided to accelerate my purchase of a real clonewheel organ. I'm using those sounds live and in recordings a lot more than I thought I would be, and really miss having proper organ action.

 

Now that I know about the upcoming XK3C revision, I'll steer clear of that eBay auction that everyone else here saw before me (I just looked tonight, as I was planning on possibly picking one up at the local Guitar Centre tomorrow during the 4 July 10% off sale).

 

The main thing I'm looking for right now, is to reverify that the action is different between the XK1 and XK3. Maybe I'll be lucky and find that thread if I search back far enough. Or maybe Guitar Centre will have both models in stock tomorrow (unlikely).

 

At any rate, another difference that I only just tonight became aware of is that the XK1 can only accept a standard envelope pedal, whereas the XK3 can accept a more advanced expression pedal with a special connector, which has a side-kick function for Leslie speed.

 

That seems a big playability difference, but if one gets a new leslie (either a reissue or one of the three newer and more portable units that they came out with recently), do those typically come with their own speed/gas pedals? I'm guessing that even if they do, that the Hammond hyped-up expression pedal would communicate the side-kick info via the Leslie connector?

 

I personally didn't feel the Korg CX3 (even the final version with true waterfall keys) "spoke" quickly enough or responded to machine-gun repetitions fast enough to exhbit true organ action, but I certainly found it more comfortable than the Nord Electro with its hard landing, which gave me pains after just five minutes of playing (every time I tried it). And I'd just as soon stick to software if I have to deal with a non-standard drawbar interface. That, or Hammond's standalone drawbars plus a synth.

 

Even so, any of the four mentioned clonewheels are a huge step up from even the best add-on voice libraries for today's workstation synths (with the possible exception of Dave Polich's revised "B's Knees" voice library for the Motif XS). And both the price and weight factors are reasonable and manageable.

 

I seem to remember mention that the eight extra voices in the XK1 (clavinet, e-pianos, etc.) were rather cheesy and useless, but that the voice engine had been tweaked (possibly also duplicated in a software update for the XK3). I'll see what I can hunt down on the XK3C using Google.

[Mark Schmieder]

The Keyboard Magazine review (which was quicker for me to find and read on-line than digging through my back issues), answers most of my questions -- although I would need to make my own qualitative judgement of the XK1 vs. XK3 action.

 

It's a bit of a moot point now though, as I found a two page brochure on the XK3C in PDF format, and it mentions a few other changes besides what was already mentioned: improved dual tube distortion/overdrive; improved Leslie/vibrato modeling; six assignable rotary encoders for MIDI control of external synths.

 

At this point, it's a no-brainer for me, as an XK3C would be able to replace my Yamaha CS6x on stage altogether. I can live without a ribbon controller, but not without some stock CC-mapped knobs, a pitch wheel and a mod wheel. And I much prefer organ action to synth action, when piano action is not available (I currently am still without an 88-key board, but have already made my decision to get a GEM PRP700, pending a slight wait in case of any surprises at Summer NAMM, or in case the Kurzweil PC3 comes out for real and I like its keybed action).

 

I'm still a little unclear on whether the action sample set for the XK1, XK3, and XK3C differ in any way. And I feel a bit guilty over preferring a sample-based solution to a modeled solution, as I am so pro-PM. My main piano source now is Pianoteq (modeled), but for e-pianos I'm now using Scarbee (sample-based). In the end, it is how the designers make use of the technology that matters, as is so eloquently pointed out in the Keyboard review of the XK1 when talking about how well Hammond has avoided earlier pitfalls of sample-based solutions vis a vis intermodulation, phasing errors, zipper noise when quickly changing several drawbars at once, etc.

[jook]

I personally didn't feel the Korg CX3 (even the final version with true waterfall keys) "spoke" quickly enough or responded to machine-gun repetitions fast enough to exhbit true organ action,...

 

I'm surprised by this because I've found the CX-3 to have one of the faster actions amongst them. There is a setting which switches between "Shallow" and "Deep" triggering - have you tried both, or perhaps you were only using the Deep setting? I normally have it set to Deep as I am pretty heavy handed, but I occasionally switch to the Shallow setting and I find that very fast indeed. I certainly did not feel like the XK3/1's keybed were any faster when I played it. The Electro's more tightly sprung, but it also has more resistance upon pressing downwards.

[Mark Schmieder]

I didn't know about the two settings. Is that in an edit menu or from the front panel? They don't usually have the manuals available to flip through at the stores.

 

There are several CX3's on eBay at the moment, but none of the photos give a close-up that makes it obvious whether they have the lip or not. I would personally be a bit distrustful of buying such a product over the internet that has been revved a few times.

[jook]

It is a Global setting which you can access via the Edit button. If you get a chance the next time you play one, have a looksie there and give the Shallow setting a try. It was designed specifically for machine gun trills and the like.

 

Oh and the setting is only available with the V2 firmware, so it's another way to confirm if the CX-3 you're playing is the updated one.

 

[Edit: Oops, I should verify what I meant: it's ALWAYS "Shallow" with the V1 firmware. But the option to edit it between Shallow and Deep is only available with the V2 firmware.]

[jook]

Oh and here's a picture of the "lipped" keys on the first batch of CX-3s that might help you identify them:

 

http://www.thepianomaninc.com/images/organ.gif

 

They're really wide, and smooth lips, and are not at all like synth "diving board" keys. I don't find they play any different to the waterfall keys (yes, even when doing palm smears and such). I have not seen these keys on any other board, and I suspect Korg had them custom made. I suspect the original designers thought it looked better with the lips, in a semi-traditional piano sorta way, and wanted the aesthetics of that while suiting organ playing requirements. They certainly seem to achieve that. Then perhaps the marketing hype around true waterfall keys built up and they put in the new keybed.

 

If you can get a particularly good deal with the lipped key version, I would recommend it. The important part is having the V2 firmware IMO.