Moon Zero Two Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Does anyone else find it strange the way Yamaha picked the price points for the new Motif XS series? The lowest allowable manufacturer prices are: XS6 2200 XS7 2800 XS8 3200 The internal guts are all the same for each model - so to jump from a sixty one keybed to 88 keys is $1000 bucks? to add 12 semi weighed keys is 600 bucks? 50 dollars a key? That just seems crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Well, the price jump from 61 to 76 has always been ridiculous. I think I posted a similar rant more than 2 years ago and I remember coming up with the same 'price per key' for another synth. One of the reasons why I never picked up a 76 key synth, even though I think the extra keys really make a difference. Honestly, I'm not terribly surprised. It would be curious making a comparison between other workstations that have all 3 models. Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Song80s Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 the XS8 has MLAN built in Obviously you can get a better deal than suggested lowest MAP Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ? My Soundcloud with many originals: [70's Songwriter] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicaL Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Actually, when I bought my ES7, the price point was similar to the way it is now. But, the 76 key keyboards are not their best sellers, so, the price is usually severely slashed in order to move them. In fact, I bought my ES7 for something like $75 more than the price I paid for my ES6. Gear: Yamaha MODX8, Mojo 61, NS2 73, C. Bechstein baby grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperAce25 Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 As long as we're doing calculations, here are some other models with various keybeds. All prices are those listed on Musiciansfriend.com. Each board has the model, total price, action type, keys added, price increase, price per added key and price per total key. Where possible, I've included a rack or desktop version for comparison. Roland Fantom X: Mod._Price__Keybed_____+keys__+price__$/+key___$/keyX8___$2300__Piano(88)____12____$500___$41.67___$34.09X7___$1900__Synth(76)____15____$500___$33.33___$32.89X6___$1700__Synth(61)____61____$600___$ 9.84___$32.79XR___$1400__none__________~______~_______~________~ Korg Triton Extreme: Mod._Price__Keybed_____+keys__+price__$/+key___$/key88___$2300__Piano(88)____12____$400___$33.33___$26.1476___$1900__Synth(76)____15____$200___$13.33___$25.0061___$1700__Synth(61)____61______~_______~___$27.87 Novation ReMOTE SL: Mod._Price__Keybed_____+keys__+price___$/+key___$/key61____$600__Synth(61)____24____$100___$ 4.17___$9.8437____$500__Synth(37)____12____$100___$ 8.33___$13.5125____$400__Synth(25)____25____$100___$16.00___$16.00Zero__$300__none__________~______~________~_______~ So it looks like keybed pricing differs between manufacturers. The roland charges about the same amount per key in the smaller versions, but chargesa $2/key premium for the weighted action. The Korg Triton Extreme has fairly consistand pricing per key for each model, and the Novation ReMOTE is simple becomes a better deal as you add keys. Sorry if this is too much data-crunching to be usefull. If it is useful, I can do this for more boards if you like. Also, the charts are ugly because UBBCode doesn't like multiple spaces... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 I think there is more to it than just adding a few keys. Each instrument has a different chassis and different niches to fill in the market. The demand differs between a 61, 76 and 88 note board, so the manufacturers have to consider this into their R&D and tooling return on investment. Somewhere there was a thread that provided a very deep and interesting view into what factors play into the pricing structure of the various boards. I cannot remember where I saw it, but it was a lot more than just doing math on a 'price per key' basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverDragonSoun Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 I think there is more to it than just adding a few keys. Each instrument has a different chassis and different niches to fill in the market. The demand differs between a 61, 76 and 88 note board, so the manufacturers have to consider this into their R&D and tooling return on investment. Somewhere there was a thread that provided a very deep and interesting view into what factors play into the pricing structure of the various boards. I cannot remember where I saw it, but it was a lot more than just doing math on a 'price per key' basis. I remember reading thsi as well and I've tried in vain to search for it. I also thought the explanation was very clear and did a nice job of explaining the different factors that went into the pricing. If only I could remember the damn thread name or even part of it. Begin the day with a friendly voice A companion, unobtrusive - Rush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperAce25 Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 oh, I'm sure there are a lot of other factors that go into the price besides the raw number of keys and the action. However, the consumer doesn't really care what those are. Could you post a link to that thread? It'd be interesting to see, especially considering Korg's new Komponent system, which makes the keybed entirely separate from the sound generator and user interface. Also, don't most keyboard manufacturers actually subcontract the keybed? I heard that the M3 keyboard is the first one that Korg actually designed and manufactured themselves... Is this the thread you meant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 don't look at advertising prices. We had thread about that already, you have to negotiate and shop around. They take numbers from the sky. I can assure you can buy XS and any other keyboard for that matter much below these listing. ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 don't look at advertising prices. We had thread about that already, you have to negotiate and shop around. They take numbers from the sky. I can assure you can buy XS and any other keyboard for that matter much below these listing. I don't think they just "take numbers from the sky." MAP numbers are most likely a huge part of the overall package when an instrument is on the drawing board. Sure, you can negotiate, just like buying a car, since MAP is not the absolute lowest you'll get. I actually think the current MAP numbers on the instruments in question are realistic and not overblown, particularly when you consider what we had to pay for 1/10 of this power even 10-15 years ago. As for the other thread referenced, the one posted a few threads ago is not the one I was thinking about. Seems we had some industry folks giving great details about all the variables that are considered when pricing these instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 from my current buying experience I can tell you MAP numbers are way too high. I can PM you differences if you'll be interested in buying XS. ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 from my current buying experience I can tell you MAP numbers are way too high. I can PM you differences if you'll be interested in buying XS. Thanks - I'm fully aware of negotiation room from MAP. The manufacturers have to start somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 The manufacturers have to start somewhere! And the retailer has to make some profit in order to keep offering you gear. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 How popular are 76-key synths? Probably not very... so they have to charge more for them to recoup the costs. 88 key weighted boards obviously add a whole new set of costs, including those very weighted keys. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Stanley Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 You're right that 76 key synths are not very popular but they might be if they were available with weighted keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3_john Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 The manufacturers have to start somewhere! And the retailer has to make some profit in order to keep offering you gear. Uh, the MAP pricing has plenty of margin left in it to keep a savvy retailer in business. John GP sacred cow of the year: Jimmy Vaughan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Song80s Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 You're right that 76 key synths are not very popular but they might be if they were available with weighted keys. that may be true but there must be enough demand for them. for example, I have the Extreme 76 and XS7. I also have the Rd700sx. I could have saved $$ by getting a 61 key version of the XS but did not want to be limited by 61 keys. That might be a typical comment of a person who is more into piano Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ? My Soundcloud with many originals: [70's Songwriter] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 I could have saved $$ by getting a 61 key version of the XS but did not want to be limited by 61 keys. That might be a typical comment of a person who is more into piano you can shift the octaves on XS6 with foot switch as you're playing along. Difference between XS6 and XS7 is ridiculous, you could buy MM6 with that and you'd still have something left for pot. ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 In the age of planned obsolescence and SUVs, "anything goes" which contributes to the McDs model i.e. small (76), medium (76) and large (88). Musicians have different requirements based on skill, gig and preference. MI tries to meet those needs and price merchandise according to what the market will bear. A few hundred dollars more than the latest model is nothing in terms of inflation. Folks will ditch old Motifs for the new. At its current pricing, the XS will sell just fine. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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