A question regarding action on RD700SX vs. S90ES.

[Bipabew]

I have had my S90ES for about a year now and am trying to play pieces such as the Chopin etudes. The action is too heavy for me to use just fingers alone to generate volume, but when I try to use arm weight my hands hurt after about 10 minutes. Imagine dropping down onto a finger with the weight of the whole arm much like you would for a FFF chord. The pain is specifically where tendons run to the tip of each finger and in the sides of the fingers as well as the bottom side of the wrist. I've set the velocity curve on the instrument to the softest setting as an interim solution.

 

What I'm wondering is how does the action of the Roland RD700SX compare as far as pain goes. Also, are there any recommendations for keyboards that would be good for the hands. I really like the synth features of the S90ES but it's too painful to play. Can a keyboard really be played like a piano? I'm not having any problems with tension or anything. I haven't been practicing anywhere near as much as I want to because the pain accrued in 10 minutes of playing lasts for hours after I stop playing.

 

Chris

[skykeys]

It's a very subjective topic Bigabew. I have an S90ES and I like the action fine. I used to have the older RD700 (non-SX). I liked the RD700 action also. I think they are more similar than different, but again, it's a very subjective call. There was a thread on this forum a while back that talked about checking the weight of a keyboard by using nickels. I don't recall what if any difference was detected by anyone.

 

 

If you are having pain, perhaps you should get your hand checked. You do NOT want to injure yourself or give yourself tendonitis. Does it hurt when you play a real acoustic piano?

 

 

I am recovering from hand surgery I had on Feb. 2 to fix an old injury. The tendon on my right index finger snapped back in 2001, (playing volleyball of all things), though I didn't know the nature of the injury at that time. I never got it looked at then because that same week, my wife became very ill (with cancer) and I forgot about my finger. As it turns out, if you don't get the tendon fixed within a week or so, it can never be fixed correctly. The only "fix" available to me now was to have the index tendon fragment tied to my middle finger tendon - and that was the surgery I had. My hand will never be the same, and I'm quite disheartened about it; but the truth is, my hand was screwed when I didn't have the injury fixed right away originally. Now, I'm trying to gauge whether I was better off before the surgery for playing the piano. I'm not sure yet. It's between having my index and middle finger act as one now, versus, the index finger not having any upward pull when the tendon was snapped - but having more independence between the fingers. either way, it sucks.

 

So, the point of this story is to say, don't injure your hand. If you are experiencing pain when playing the S90ES, stop playing the S90ES, and get your hand checked by a hand specialist. If you like another keyboard's action better, then perhaps the S90ES is simply not for you. But my gut tells me you would have the same pain on any similar keyboard.

 

Please let me know how you make out.

 

Regards.

[delirium]

No pain, no gain...

[Finale]

Depends if you can play a real piano without experiencing this pain. If so, then the problem is linked to the digital piano action. I would not be surprised it's the case once again, because since a few months I've read more than one thread about the very same topic (have a search and you'll see lots of interesting comments on that).

 

Otherwise, if you get pain playing acoustic and digital, then you'll have to verify and adjust your technique.

 

Certain Chopin and many classical piano pieces are very demanding for the pianist. Listen to your body at all times and stop playing as soon as you feel pain or abnormal tension. Use another technique for the problematic passages and avoid overpracticing tough ones.

[SilverDragonSoun]

If your experiencing pain, I'm thinking you want to know why. While the action on the S90ES may be causing it, I don't think a switch will necessarily alleviate the pain. My first though is to check your technique. Make sure your playing properly as many times pain can be linked to incorrect technique. Secondly as Cydonia said play a real piano and see if the pain still exists. Lastly again as Cydonia stated some pieces are very demnading and you may be simply overdoing it. These are some good places to start looking and hopefully the solution is a simple one.

[Bipabew]

Thanks to all so far for the speedy replies. Cydonia, I have not experienced these problems on an acoustic. I agree that the problem lies in the lack of shock absorption of certain digital keybeds. I practice for about three hours everyday so maybe this is just an overuse issue.

[Dave Ferris]

These things are meant for gigging...... period.....don't try to play/practice such demanding/advanced pieces on toy keyboards !

 

I've been working on those pieces (Chopin Etudes)for almost 30 yrs......this is very serious stuff.....you can do permament damage I would think w/ repeated repetition of certain passages.

 

Please...go get a used Yamaha upright U3 or whatever....a real piano ,don't screw around w/ your hands.....20 yrs. down the road, you'll be glad you did.

 

My keyboards stay in the case unless I'm gigging.

[delirium]

These things are meant for gigging...... period.....don't try to play/practice such demanding/advanced pieces on toy keyboards !

 

toy keyboards!

my S90ES got all green when it heard that :grin:

 

you can find good keybed in keyboards as well as you can find bad one in acoustics...

 

[Jazz+]

I always experienced very sore tendons in my wrists after playing my Yamahas P piano actions for even a short time, see SOLD below. I experience far less soreness playing the Roland FP4, FP2, Kawai ES4 and my Mason & Hamlin. I will never use a Yamaha digital action again.

[Finale]

Cydonia, I have not experienced these problems on an acoustic. I agree that the problem lies in the lack of shock absorption of certain digital keybeds. I practice for about three hours everyday so maybe this is just an overuse issue.

 

Bipabew, exactly, the problem with many digital pianos is that the bottom of the keys feels like concrete instead of wood.

 

It's interesting for me to find out, with your thread here, that you're at least the third person commenting on this problem and I believe the two other ones also had the same Yamaha model. There definitely seem to be something wrong with this particular action.

 

I had to modify the action on one of my Kurz to fix that, adding an additional layer of foam to reduce the shocks (even though it's not 100% satisfactory yet... I'll try something else this summer). I sometimes practice difficult classical on it but I don't to spend too many hours in a row because it destroys your finger articulations for sure. :grin:

 

For intensive classical solo piano practice, I almost only use my MIDIboard, which feels just like a grand piano to me after all those years together.

[Bipabew]

It's interesting for me to find out, with your thread here, that you're at least the third person commenting on this problem and I believe the two other ones also had the same Yamaha model. There definitely seem to be something wrong with this particular action.

 

I find that very interesting as well. When I started this topic I was think the same thing about how many people have posted about the S90ES action causing pain. Over on sninety.com's forums I've seen things about action too.

 

Dave, thanks for the reply, I am actually looking for an upright piano so hopefully I'll soon be able to practice again.

[delirium]

I agree S90 type of action is not the best for classical or any challenging stuff. I do practice on my FP5 almost exclusively which feels like a women to fingers...

 

All yamaha action is stiff thats fact, but recently even roland got stiffed with FP7.

[Finale]

Well, there are good digital actions. I just named one, but I've read great comments about many others : the rare T8, the Roland A90, the old KX88, etc. I believe it's possible to create excellent renditions of classical piano pieces using a digital keyboard. It's just another approach compared to an acoustic. There are unique advantages on both digital and acoustic pianos.

[Finale]

All yamaha action is stiff thats fact...

 

Yep, you can easily recognize Yahama digital action players from their unusually huge wrists.

[Jazz+]

And they will tell you that they never get any pain and that it's your technique that's the problem, not the noble Yamaha.

My current solution is the FP4, it's got the sound of the RD-700SX piano, but with an easier more relaxed action. And it's only 33 lbs. I avoid moving heavy keyboards that would further wreck my hands.

[delirium]

Yep, you can easily recognize Yahama digital action players from their unusually huge wrists.

 

like this? http://www.worstpreviews.com/images/thescienceofsleep.gif

[SilverDragonSoun]

Yep, you can easily recognize Yahama digital action players from their unusually huge wrists.

 

like this? http://www.worstpreviews.com/images/thescienceofsleep.gif

 

 

I wonder what else he did to get his hands that big? He must have been choking, I mean chasing the monkey around the house for a long time. :grin:

[Dave Ferris]

Wow w/ hands that large I could play stride like Teddy Wilson on steriods!

[Finale]

:grin: :grin: :grin:

[Jazzwee]

Just for comparison Bipabew, I've been playing mostly my newly acquired Steinway the last few days. At first, my S90ES trained hands could not even really get a good sound out of the grand. I would say it took till tonight before I felt I could play normally on the grand. So that's about 4 days of practice.

 

For comparison, I went back to the Yamaha U3 and it felt SUPER LIGHT. I could go at twice the speed. By the time I got to the S90ES, I was zipping through it like a rocket. That's even lighter. Bottom line, and I've tried too many grands to count in the last month, the S90ES doesn't even approach the weight of a real grand. And I'm talking full dynamic weight here (i.e. including inertia, friction, etc.), not just a coin test to check downweight.

 

BTW - although there was a lot of adjustment to me in using the correct arm weight, once I got that figured out, it is now very relaxing and I feel no strain whatsoever after playing for hours.

 

I'm not saying this relates to your problem since I don't play classical. But since I have all these instruments in one place, it's kind of easy to do an A/B/C comparison. And for weight feel, if the Steinway is 100%, the Yamaha U3 feels like 60% and the S90ES feels like 40%.

 

Given this assessment, it may make you wonder if you'll manage on a grand. I agree with Dave Ferris that perhaps getting a U3 would be a step up to controlling your technique.

 

I just noticed you're in California. I have a U3 for sale in the Garage Sale section.

 

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

My Mason and Hamlin acoustic is easier to play then all the digital pianos I have owned. Somehow it's the combination of the key inertia, the hammer thrown from the key when it's half way through its' down stroke, the follow through to the cushioned bottom, and the gentle upweight that makes it unlike any digital action simulation.

[Jazzwee]

There are other parts to this equation though. Technique wise, if the keys are too light (as I feel the S90ES is), someone continuously playing p or pp may have difficulty in control and thus may be extra strained. In comparison, putting in all my arm weight into the Steinway, there's still enough resistance (it has Renner action) that I don't have to worry about pulling back or crashing into the bottom of the keybed. An action that's too light may make you jar your tendons at the bottom of the keybed when playing FF. In other words it may depend on how you play as many experienced players here have been straining their tendons on the hard bottom of the keyboard. So the solution may in fact be the opposite which is heavier action, particularly heavier action of a real piano and the cushioning effect of a deeper key dip.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

A heavier piano action is not the solution in my case. The hand doctors tell me that the heavier actions increase the friction of my tendons against their sheaths. They recommend a light "Horowitz" type regulated action which my Mason & Hamlin has.

[Bipabew]

After trying out several more pianos I can really see how the S90ES is way too light. I really agree about having to hold back to avoid impact. On a piano I don't have to hold back at all.

[Jazzwee]

Funny isn't it? It's like the opposite of what one would expect. Although I wouldn't translate this to mean go for the piano with the heaviest touch because part of that piano weight is friction. That's something you don't want as you will notice the keys don't pop back up smartly.

[delirium]

why cant we just accept that sometimes we have just too weak hands for the instruments and we need to workout more.

You can get used only to very lights keys action because you'd never could play on anything else. But I know we all want results with the least amount of effort possible

[Finale]

Another point is that regardless the weight of the keys, the player should be able to go as deep as possible in the keybed and knock against the stops without feeling like doing karate against a concrete or platinum wall.

 

I can play a lighter digital piano action and adjust the velocity map accordingly. In other words, I might hit the bottom of the keybed more often if the keys are lighter, but obtain the right set of samples (mp, f or fff), since the velocity map will compensate for the mechanism. Vice versa in the case of heavy keys.

 

But when it comes to acoustic pianos, even with very light keys like certain uprights have, I've never felt this terrible knock-against-concrete feel hitting the keybed bottom, for example when playing fff. My conclusion (sorry if I repeat myself once again) : the problem is the quality of the material used for the key stops. Not comfortable enough on digitals compared to acoustic pianos.

[eric]

A heavier piano action is not the solution in my case. The hand doctors tell me that the heavier actions increase the friction of my tendons against their sheaths. They recommend a light "Horowitz" type regulated action which my Mason & Hamlin has.

 

It is all Yamaha's fault.

[delirium]

In case of S90ES there is no effect of knocking against the stop,

but rather I feel like the key is giving me resistance all the time, from the moment I touch the key to the very end. In against as it should be - resistance on th very beginning when "hammer" is swinging and then should loosen up, like on acoustic piano.

 

That's the main problem, because hand has not time to rest.

[burningbusch]

Another point is that regardless the weight of the keys, the player should be able to go as deep as possible in the keybed and knock against the stops without feeling like doing karate against a concrete or platinum wall.

 

I can play a lighter digital piano action and adjust the velocity map accordingly. In other words, I might hit the bottom of the keybed more often if the keys are lighter, but obtain the right set of samples (mp, f or fff), since the velocity map will compensate for the mechanism. Vice versa in the case of heavy keys.

 

But when it comes to acoustic pianos, even with very light keys like certain uprights have, I've never felt this terrible knock-against-concrete feel hitting the keybed bottom, for example when playing fff. My conclusion (sorry if I repeat myself once again) : the problem is the quality of the material used for the key stops. Not comfortable enough on digitals compared to acoustic pianos.

 

+1

 

 

It's unfortunate that, out of necessity, we're focused on the "pro" digital pianos. They are "pro" only because they're the most portable and such, not because they are the best-of-the-best. Superior actions, IMHO, can be found in the Yamaha Clavinova line or Roland's home pianos. My personal favorite is the action of the Roland HP-207. The HP-207 is a mere 172 lbs.

 

Click on VIDEO and then TOUCH

 

Busch.