Major sharp keys

[jar546]

Since I am still learning basics I was working on the major sharp keys and I am not a fan of the "Circle of fifths" so I made my own little Excel file to chart it out.

 

Here is the problem. I was doing good using the bass as my teacher to map out each sharp key starting with the key of C and when I got to the F# I could not understand how what I see as an F is actually an E# when I thought there were no E#'s. So when I realized I only had 5 sharps in F# it took me a while to figure this out.

 

Can I get a better explanation on this one?

 

The same thing goes for C# since there is both an E# and B# which really screws me up because I am seeing a F & C instead of those sharps.

 

Thank you from kindergarten jeff

[Trucks]

This is quite interesting

 

"Scales are patterns of steps, not specific pitches. A major scale, for example, consists of these steps: whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole. If you begin on C it's a "C major scale" and you're in the "key of C." Depending on the pitch you choose to start the pattern with, any pitch is a possible member of the scale. But people are often curious about pitches like B# and E# (and Cb and Fb) because the only way to play them on the piano is to use a white key: C for B# and so on. So the question arises: why do we bother with pitches like that anyway?

 

Most familiar melodies are based on the pattern of whole and half steps found in the major scale. That pattern is represented by the white keys of the piano and also by the natural notes on the staff. If you start on the right pitch you can play many melodies on the white keys only: start on E to play the famous choral theme from Beethoven's 9th Symphony, or on C to play the Beatles' "She loves you," or on G for "Home on the Range." (If you're learning to improvise tunes, try playing just on the white keys for a start).

 

The pattern formed by those seven notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B is the major scale: whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step. Start on A and you get the natural minor pattern, A, B, C, D, E, F, G. But suppose you want to play something using that same pattern of steps but starting higher or lower? If that's what you want, you'll need to add some in-between notes, which are represented by the black keys. To play the major pattern starting on F, for example, you'll need to add a Bb, a lower form of B, between the A and the B. To play it starting on G you'll need to use a higher F, F#. This is the origin of the black keys, which are now found between every pair of white keys that is separated by a whole step.

 

Between B and C and between E and F there is just a half step - no room there for a black key. But there is a reason to have a "B#" and an "E#." For just one example, if you have written a G# in your music and want to make it the root of a major harmony you'll need a major third above it. A third brings you to the third letter, B, but to be major (4 half steps wide) it has to be a raised B: B#. You can't write C as a substitute because that wouldn't be a major harmony; it would confuse the band. C would be a diminished fourth above G# and would have different musical implications.

 

Since there's no black key between B and C you'll be playing that B# on the same piano key used for C, but that's part of the compromise that makes the piano workable. There was a time when musicians tried making keyboards with separate keys for B# and C, Fb and E, F# and Gb, and all the others, each tuned slightly different - but such keyboards were expensive to make and difficult to use - some had 53 keys to the octave. Musicians compromised by tuning just 12 keys in such a way that C could pass for B#, and so on.

 

To sum up: B# and E# can indeed be part of a scale, depending on the tonic (starting note) of the scale. "

 

From here: https://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/theory.html

[TimR]

F# major does have 6#s and usually there are only 5 normal #s, but because you have F# in the scale, the F you play has to be written as an E# and for the same reason the C has to be a B#.

 

When you do the flats you'll find the same for Gb

[jar546]

Trucks,

 

I wish your reply would have been more detailed.....LOL

 

Really, all kidding aside, that certainly helps.

 

Jeff

[TimR]

Wow Trucks you wrote all that in 15 minutes?

[Trucks]

lol no!

 

Its from the link at the bottom of my post

[dcr]

Think of it this way: every scale has one of every letter in it, from A to G. So the key of F# has to have an E in it--in this case, an E#. (Knowing the series of sharps will let you figure out which of those letters are sharp.)

 

Every fret belongs to many notes. (The 3rd fret on the D string, for instance, belongs to F, E#, and Gbb.) If it is hard to conceptualize different notes being assigned to the same fret, get a copy of the Simandl book & work through the first few pages.

 

You say that you're not a fan of the Circle of Fifths. OK, but that means you're going to have to rote-memorize a whole ton of stuff, rather than just one short string of letters.

 

Try to memorize just this: F C G D A E B. That's the order in which the sharps come. If you remember that the last sharp in a series of sharp is the major 7th of the scale, you'll know instantly that "six sharps is F# major."

 

Incidentally, once you've gone that far, it's now easier to remember the flat keys. It's just the reverse: B E A D G C F. That's the order in which the flats come. And the last flat in a series is always the 4th of the scale. So 1 flat is F major, 2 flats is Bb major, and so on.

 

You can even use your bass to memorize these. For the series of sharps, start on the F fret, and just keep going down. For the series of flats, start on the B and go up. Likewise, for a sharp key, fret the note of the last sharp in the signature & move up a half step to find your key. For a flat key, fret the note of the last flat in the signature & move down a string a find your key.

 

This approach also has the benefit that every time you look at a piece of sheet music, you get reminded of it--sharps & flats are always in that same order. Before long you'll never even have to think about it; you'll see 4 sharps & your brain will say "E major," or 3 flats and "Bb major."

[Mike Chini]

Major scale = WWHWWWH

 

W = Whole step (2 frets)

H = Half step (1 fret)

 

 

 

[jar546]

Think of it this way: every scale has one of every letter in it, from A to G. So the key of F# has to have an E in it--in this case, an E#.

 

This has got to be the most simplistic, non-technical explanation that makes sense and drives the point home. Thanks

[jeremy c]

dcr beat me to the post.

 

It's easy if you look at this:

 

Key of C no flats no sharps:

C D E F G A B C

Key of C# seven sharps:

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

Key of Cb seven flats:

Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb

 

I think of it as a spelling issue.

The proper spelling makes it much easier to read.

If you look at a C#7 chord, it should say C# E# G# B.

If it were written C# F Ab B, at my first look at it I would go "huh?"

 

Also if we were looking a piece of music that didn't go out of key, if we looked a the written music for same song in the three keys in my top example, they would all look identical: only the key signature would change.

 

[theTragicRich]

I think my brain exploded... LOL Great explanations though.. those tricky keys always send me in a spin.

[jeremy c]

If you know the notes on your bass, you already know the circle of fifths.

 

Just look across the neck at any fret, going from high to low.

 

For instance, if you are on the fifth fret, the note on the G string is C, the note on the D string is G, the note on the A string is D, and the note on the E string is A.

 

So there you have it: C G D A. Looks like the circle of fifths to me. For that matter the strings high to low are G D A E. Hmm, circle of fifths. The strings on a 6 string bass, high to low are: C G D A E B. Circle of fifths. Notes at the first fret are:

Db Ab Eb Bb F C. There you have it. Not hard at all.

 

You do know the names of all the notes on the bass neck, don't you? Is there any other instrument on which people don't seem to care about what the names of the notes on their instrument are?

[jeremy c]

I promise not to introduce the double sharp:

http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/images/dblsharp.GIF

or the double flat:

http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/images/dblflat.GIF

into this discussion.

[jar546]

Now I have to find a good way to remember the sequence of notes starting with the C then to GDAEBF#C#

 

Let me think..........hmmmmmmmmm

 

C ranky

G irls #

D on't ##

A lways ###

E at ####

B oys #####

F#ood ######

C#ooking #######

 

Although I really thought of something else, I will keep it clean & fun. Now for the flats

 

 

 

[Michele C.]

There is an advantage in harmony in the rule of different names.

In classical music, you write a C chord as C-E-G putting notes on the staff in the proper spaces (in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th space on the staff) without worrying about alterations, since the key alterations will take care of adjusting any chord to tonality.

I mean, construct a chord on C in C major and it is C-E-G, C major.

In A major, you have a F#, C# and G#, so you have C#, E, G#: a minor chord on the III grade.

In E you have F#, C#, G#, D# and the same notes, but this time it is a minor cord on the VI grade.

In Db you have key alterations on Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb. This time if you write the dots you will write a Cm7b5, C, Eb, Gb, since this time C is on the VII grade.

By the way a chord on the VII grade is m7b5 in any tonality, there is no need to specify major minor or m7b5.

This works also backwards, if you see a m7b5 chord chances are you are going to resolve on the next note, one half step upper.

In the sixteenth century they just wrote the bass and some numbers when needed keyboard players would improvise the continuo.

I find this much more intuitive than reasoning in modes, as long as what you play has a tonality.

This comes all from the simple rule: every scale has one of every letter in it

[Eric VB]

Now I have to find a good way to remember the sequence of notes starting with the C then to GDAEBF#C#

 

Let me think..........hmmmmmmmmm

 

C ranky

G irls #

D on't ##

A lways ###

E at ####

B oys #####

F#ood ######

C#ooking #######

 

Although I really thought of something else, I will keep it clean & fun. Now for the flats

From a practical standpoint I just don't see how this is useful. Knowing that B has 5 sharps doesn't tell me which notes are sharp.

 

I must have been taught the same way as dcr, because his explanation makes perfect sense to me.

Try to memorize just this: F C G D A E B. That's the order in which the sharps come. If you remember that the last sharp in a series of sharp is the major 7th of the scale, you'll know instantly that "six sharps is F# major."

Or to demystify the "major 7th of the scale" part, just take the last sharp in the sequence and raise it a half step: that is the name of the key. (At least the more common keys. Honestly, I've never had to read music in F# or C#. These are enharmonically equivalent to Gb and Db, which are more common in my experience. Must be from playing Bb instruments in band.)

 

So, from dcr's list we have F is the first sharp, and a half step up from F# is G. The key with one sharp (which is F#) is G.

 

C is the next sharp. C# raised a half step is D.

 

Admittedly the way I learned the order was via 8 years of school band, reading music in class 5 days a week for 3/4 of each year. That's about 1500 band classes! Things like this tend to sink in over that time period.

[theTragicRich]

you know... this got me thinking. I pulled out one of my theory books while I was sitting on the can, and I vaguely remembered something about this... well sorta.

 

The books I have, both tend to agree, that you use the simplest method when dealing with the enharmonic keys, right? I know it's general rule of thumb, and composers can do whatever they want.. but doesn't it make sense to use the key of B Major instead of Cb Major, and Db instead of C#? Obviously with keys F# and Gb, both containing 6 accidentals, it's a preference... but wouldn't it just seem logical to use the key with the least accidentals? I think that's what was throwing my head into a spin at first.. as I never really paid attention to Cb or C# Major keys.

 

But now it's all starting to come together

[jar546]

I just wish I would have paid attention in school instead of waiting until I was 41 to start learning this great stuff. I do mean great, really.

[Michele C.]

I use this tricks to associate sharps and tonality: the last sharp is the seventh of the scale. If the last sharp is F# tonality is G.

The last flat instead is the fourth. This means that the tonality is the same as the penultimate flat. If you see Bb, Eb and Ab you are in Eb.

To understant the way it goes take a piece of paper and write down major scales. Write notes for each letter and accidents to adjust the scale. Start from C and go forwards or backwards on the cycle of fifths. In fifteen minutes you will see the mechanics of flats appearing on fourth grade and sharps appearing on seventh grade.

If you go far enough you will need double sharps or double flats.

Still I cannot remember what is four flats without going through the sequence (Ab).

I remember it in Italian as Si-mi-la-re sol-do fa, that sounds like "similar makes money". The image is two similar shops, one very popular and one almost broke :-).

[Eric VB]

The last flat instead is the fourth. This means that the tonality is the same as the penultimate flat. If you see Bb, Eb and Ab you are in Eb.

I know dcr explained it this way, too, but I learned it slightly differently. If you cover up (or or otherwise ignore) the last flat and look instead at the next to last flat, that is the key. This doesn't work if there's only one flat, so I just remember that that one is F.

 

If I see Bb Eb Ab, I look past the Ab to the Eb, and that's my key.

[Eric VB]

you know... this got me thinking. I pulled out one of my theory books while I was sitting on the can, and I vaguely remembered something about this... well sorta.

 

The books I have, both tend to agree, that you use the simplest method when dealing with the enharmonic keys, right? I know it's general rule of thumb, and composers can do whatever they want.. but doesn't it make sense to use the key of B Major instead of Cb Major, and Db instead of C#? Obviously with keys F# and Gb, both containing 6 accidentals, it's a preference... but wouldn't it just seem logical to use the key with the least accidentals? I think that's what was throwing my head into a spin at first.. as I never really paid attention to Cb or C# Major keys.

 

But now it's all starting to come together

What I want to know is: Who's the guy that decided that we should start things off with the key of C? I mean, come on, doesn't it make sense to do things alphabetically? We don't start counting with 3, skipping 1 and 2 until later, do we?

 

I'm sure someone much smarter than myself has already looked at other more logical ways of naming the 12 semitones that make up an octave. By using 12 symbols instead of only 7 we could do away with sharps and flats entirely! But I can see how that might make more problems than it solves.

 

So, just like learning all those weird rules to the English language -- like conjugating be -- I just learn all those weird rules to the language of music.

I am

you are

he/she/it is

we are

you (all) are

they are

[it's even more fun auf Deutsch! ]

ich bin

du bist

er/sie/es ist

wir sind

ihr seid

sie sind

[Yes, I had to look that up ... it's been too long! ]

 

[theTragicRich]

LOL... so true. The English language is bizarre

[jeremy c]

hwot? tha inglish laneguidge is purrfickly fonettic!

 

Eezy too speek, reed and spel.

 

Why anyone who can read and write in any language has trouble learning to read music is beyond me. It's a perfectly logical system with no exceptions to the rules.

[TimR]

Because I speak English all day and every day, but I only speak music for about an hour a day (I wish), and only get to 'converse' with other musicians once a week (I wish).