great songwriting and great playing mutually exclusive?

[Soulrock]

While reading the thread on the Edge, it occured to me that there are not alot of guitarists that I consider to be both great songwriters and great players. I'm not endorsing the Edge as a great songwriter just using him as an example because of the recent thread. Clearly he is a different type of musician than someone like Robben Ford. Maybe Kieth Richards and Jeff Beck would be a better example. You get the idea. Who do you guys think excell at both? I'm thinking of great writing in a rock band context, so someone like Kieth or Jimmy Page can qualify(if you think they do) even if they collaborate with a singer.

Two choices from me would be Jimi, and Doyle Bramhall II.

 

[Sauce]

Yeah Hendrix most definitely, Zappa, Prince, Robert Fripp and Adrian Belew, and Robert Johnson are the first ones that come to mind for me.

[The Big G]

well i would have to go for Townsend and Hendrix. Thats probably my top 2 players / songwriters but sauce has mentioned Prince who also sneaks up there for me.

 

G

[Dr. Ellwood]

Yep I would have to say Townsend/Hendrix, with Townsend, being one of the best rhythm chopmeisters in the rock end of the business.

[Billster]

Ritchie Blackmore has done some good writing, but he's not as innovative with his rhythm playing as with his leads. He does good catchy riffs, and makes good chord progressions, but his rhythmic palette is more limited than the way Townshend strums. Not that it's bad for the style of Purple or Rainbow...

 

Blackmore's lead playing is miles ahead of Pete's.

 

John McLaughlin and John Scofield have a good mix of playing and writing. Mike Stern is pretty good at both too, but some of his writing is repetitive.

[Squ]

Satriani, Vai and Malmsteen have written tons of great tunes! In fact, I can't go for very long without getting some of their songs stuck in my head! One thing Malmsteen is good with is never repeating himself. [/sarcasm]

[Greg B.]

Warren Haynes and Ian Moore are both excellent writers that can also .

[Gruupi]

No not mutually exclusive, just do the math. The technical side of playing an instrument isn't really the same thing as knowing and creating music. Composing is a whole other thing than playing. So the chance of someone being great at both is exponentially rarer. Of course someone who takes the time to become a virtuoso has to at least have experienced enough music to have an edge in composing over someone who has only spent a little time playing.

 

All of my favorite guitar players are ones that write great tunes, but even most of those are vehicles for making the guitar sound good. As an example, one of my favorites is Eric Johnson's "Cliffs of Dover", its a great song that really showcases his style and sound. But would it sound good played on piano or in a big band arrangement? I don't know but I have my doubts. I can't think of very many rock guitar hero songs that I think could be as good if played by a virtuoso on another instrument. Would Satriani, Vai, Malsteen tunes sound good if played on other lead instruments like cello, piano, violin, or saxaphone.

 

The person that fits the bill for me is Pat Metheny. He may be the best composer of our generation (only time will tell). He is also a monster guitar player and improviser. I guess a great composition/song has to be more universal than just an individual expression. Can someone take that melody and harmony and interpret it in a different way without it being a "cover"?

 

I know part of composing is writing for the timbres of certain instruments, but theres more to it than that. There is more to great playing than playing clean with good tone. So I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, just extremely rare.

[GuitarPlayerFL]

Yes, Zappa, Blackmore (Rainbow Rising LP), Townshend, and Page would be part of that group. (Page doesn't play as sloppy on the early LZ albums.)

 

BUT...

 

I tend to qualify *pianists* as having a better shot at being great songwriters and good players. Both Elton John and Billy Joel have written tunes that are almost regarded as standards, and they're both competent pianists. (They're not Oscar Peterson (that we know), but they can get around on the keyboard).

 

I think it's harder for guitarists to achieve both since most guitarists don't learn theory as piano players do.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

No not mutually exclusive, just do the math. The technical side of playing an instrument isn't really the same thing as knowing and creating music. Composing is a whole other thing than playing.

 

I agree. Composing is a "big picture" thing, where you know that this line must be played by a guitar, and that bit there must be played by a sax and so on. Virtuosity is about getting that line to sound as good as possible.

 

One person who can do both, IMHO, is Leo Kottke. His stuff is virtuosity personified and yet his pieces have clearly defined, tuneful melodies that stay with you. On the other hand, even though Michael Hedges was just as talented as Kottke, I'm damned if I can recall a single thing Hedges wrote.

[bbqbob]

It is a reare bird that can combine both. I like Richard Thompson, his playing is incredible and songwriting out of this world. More people should give him a listen.

[Billster]

Yes, Richard Thompson is great.

 

Gruupi makes good points. It's a rare bird that can bring it both as a player and writer. I love Jeff Beck, but most of his best playing in on songs written by other people.

[Eric Iverson]

And you could John Coltrane to that picture.. not a guitarist, but he wrote cool tunes that are still being played, in spite of being a great soloist on his instrument.

 

You could add Wes Montgomery, too!

[Eric VB]

Without a doubt Gruupi is dead on correct.

 

If you want to stick to popular music, a song is lyrics set to music. That would mean a good songwriter would have to be a good lyricist as well as a good composer (of at least melodies). [Yes, popular music includes instrumentals -- especially in jazz -- but I think lyrical songs are by far more widespread.]

 

So right off the bat you'd have to cross off the likes of Page from your list. (Did he ever write a lyric? [Of course see the link below and wonder if Plant ever wrote an original lyric, either.])

 

The Copyright Office doesn't really care about arrangements. Essentially this is any music that isn't the melody. In a court of law they can argue whether or not one artist has wrongfully used a distinguishable feature from another artist's song. There's a lot of grey area, though, with no clear cut definition in terms of number of notes or length of time.

 

This is good for the most part. Imagine if someone had a copyright on the twelve bar blues progression! Or the voicing for a Barre chord! Or the standard rock drum beat!

 

So, although an arrangement can make or break a song, it isn't technically part of the song.

 

In reality, though, popular music is highly reliant on rhythm. At one extreme is hip hop, with its rhymes (lyrics/melody) and accompanying beat. Even the rhymes themselves are more rhythmic in nature than melodic. At the other end of the scale might be country music. At least if you consider the friction between "old" country fans and "new" country music that incorporates more rhythmic elements of other pop genres (such as rock). [At a concert in the '90s Tim McGraw addressed his detractors who claimed his music "wasn't country", to which he replied, "So what?", and the crowd cheered wildly. ]

 

Getting back to Page, the reason I find his post-Zep songs lacking is due to the arrangements. He may still have a good collection of overdubbed guitars, but it just doesn't sound nearly as compelling without the arrangements of Bonham and Jones. [Don't get me wrong; I'm actually a Page fan!]

 

Finally, just one last observation about Page. This guy "Dead Man" brings a dead horse back out to beat in his mixes here.

Some time ago, I posted two mixes (vols. 1 & 2) full of tracks that Led Zeppelin was accused of plagiarizing. After listening to all of those tracks I came to the conclusion that much (but not all) of the criticism leveled against Led Zeppelin is overwrought. While they could be sloppy about citing their sources, Led Zeppelin brought a substantial amount of originality to all of their music. In most cases where they were loose about citing their sources they settled out of court and changed songwriting credits. Having said that, to my mind, two Led Zeppelin songs are still not properly credited: "Boogie with Stu" (lifted from Richie Valens, who lifted it from Little Richard) and the subject of this mix, "Dazed and Confused".

So, yeah, I'd say Page was a good guitarist, but there's a big difference between bringing "a substantial amount of originality" and actually writing a song from scratch.

 

In a looser definition of "songwriter", in which a guitarist is just responsible for writing a chord progression and the guitar parts as a nucleus to build a song around, well, yeah, Jimmy could write some interesting licks.

 

What about the likes of BB King and SRV (#3 and #7 on Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time)? Sure, there's a lot of twelve bar blues there, but these guys wrote (lyrics and music), played and even sang! (I guess that bloke Eric Clapton did the same thing, too. Oh, he was #4 on that list. ) [Yeah, yeah, Page was #9.]

[Eric VB]

There have been two trends in the music industry recently, as far as I can tell.

 

One is for looks over talent. You think it's hard to find someone that is a talented songwriter and performer? Try to find one that is also a modelesque beauty! As we all know, people listen with their eyes. (Heck, dancing is considered a stronger asset than voice for a performing artist!)

 

The other trend is for singer/songwriters. I guess it's easier to find a songwriter that is capable of performing than to match the efforts of songwriters with performing artists? [Has anyone else been to their local songwriter association's meetings?]

 

It does make some sense to have all the talent in one package, er, person. There's no concern over strained relations between the artist, musician, songwriter, etc.

 

Yes, it is hard to find a virtuoso instrumentalist that is also a talented composer (check out Nicolo Paganini, btw).

 

It's also very difficult to create compelling original music, make a virtuoso recording of it, and give riveting performances of it ... all by yourself.

[Billster]

I guess it's easier to find a songwriter that is capable of performing than to match the efforts of songwriters with performing artists? [Has anyone else been to their local songwriter association's meetings?]

 

Not since they shut down the Brill Building.

 

But anyway, the singer/songwriter thing actually a genre with some great performers. Peter Mulvey is a very talented performer and an incisive writer. Of course he's in a different genre, and the kind of guitar stuff that he does isn't ordinarily compared to the Gods of Lead Guitar, but the talent is there.

[fantasticsound]

I can't even begin to address the ridiculous statements in this thread.

 

The answer is an emphatic yes. There are many examples of great songwriters who are also more than competent guitarists.

 

I don't buy Ric's suggestion that a songwriter writes lyrics and music. That's ridiculous. I suppose you're going to tell me Rodgers & Hammerstein, Gilbert & Sullivan or any number of other songwriting teams are not songwriters because one was a music composer and the other a lyricist. Hell, by your definition guitplayersocal's suggestion of Elton John as songwriter doesn't hold as he's always written music only, with lyrics by Bernie Taupin and a few other lyricists.

 

Suffice it to say that from the beginning of blues and rock guitar there have always been exceptional players who wrote exceptional tunes.

 

And one more thing, it is absolutely false to suggest that arrangements are not covered by the copyright office. They are, in fact, specifically covered by copyright and are afforded similar if not identical rights to any other copyrighted musical material.

[audiac82]

Johnny Marr

[GuitarPlayerFL]

I don't buy Ric's suggestion that a songwriter writes lyrics and music. That's ridiculous.

 

....

 

Hell, by your definition guitplayersocal's suggestion of Elton John as songwriter doesn't hold as he's always written music only, with lyrics by Bernie Taupin and a few other lyricists.

 

LOL

 

I was *just* thinking the same thing you wrote about EJ...and then you wrote it. :grin:

[Strategery]

Correct me if I'm wrong....I'm not sure but, how about Mark Knopfler?

Good guitar player and song writer I think.

 

Brian Setzer? Not sure how much he writes or redoes, but he could be one.

 

How much did SRV write? I'm not sure there either.

 

Hendrix? Yeah, for sure. :grin:

 

Townsend in that category as well.

 

HOw about Trower? I'm not sure how much he wrote either.

 

Next. :grin:

[The Big G]

Johnny Marr

 

Good Shout for Marr. I would also add Paul Weller, plays some lovely guitar and writes a great song.

 

G

[Outlander]

pat metheney, adam jones and tom morello.

[Soulrock]

Trower wrote virtually all of his music, including lyrics. I believe James Dewar co-wrote some lyric's on a couple of songs. Saw Trower in a little club last year, he still brings it. He also still plays LOUD. Rediculously so. I wish James Dewar was still with us though. What a voice.

[Squ]

The other trend is for singer/songwriters. I guess it's easier to find a songwriter that is capable of performing than to match the efforts of songwriters with performing artists? [Has anyone else been to their local songwriter association's meetings?]

 

Uh, are you aware of what's on the Top 40? A lot of the Top 40 has manufactured singers backed by songwriting teams and major labels which take care of so many things. You think people like Avril Lavigne have much to do with the creative process of her material? Even Gwen Stefani, after all her success with No Doubt, is performing other people's material. Singer/Songwriters are probably the most popular they've ever been, but they certainly do not dominate the charts.

[Eric VB]

I can't even begin to address the ridiculous statements in this thread.

 

The answer is an emphatic yes. There are many examples of great songwriters who are also more than competent guitarists.

 

I don't buy Ric's suggestion that a songwriter writes lyrics and music. That's ridiculous. I suppose you're going to tell me Rodgers & Hammerstein, Gilbert & Sullivan or any number of other songwriting teams are not songwriters because one was a music composer and the other a lyricist. Hell, by your definition guitplayersocal's suggestion of Elton John as songwriter doesn't hold as he's always written music only, with lyrics by Bernie Taupin and a few other lyricists.

 

Suffice it to say that from the beginning of blues and rock guitar there have always been exceptional players who wrote exceptional tunes.

 

And one more thing, it is absolutely false to suggest that arrangements are not covered by the copyright office. They are, in fact, specifically covered by copyright and are afforded similar if not identical rights to any other copyrighted musical material.

I admit my comments were a bit baited.

 

The discussion was putting the virtuoso emphasis on playing the instrument. Why make the songwriting subordinate? It is a different kind of virtuoso that can write a complete hit song all by himself/herself.

 

In reality, yes, a lot of hit songs are written by teams of songwriters: composers, lyracists, and people that do a little of both.

 

In terms of copyright, I grant you that a sound recording copyright will cover the actual recording. But is a court of law going to care if I send a chord chart of the twelve bar blues in all 12 major keys to the Copyright Office for a performing arts copyright and start suing everyone that uses TBB for infringement? [As I recall, FS, you have some real experience in entertainment law, so I'll withdraw my statement and defer to your judgement if you can help explain this one to me. Thanks!]

 

The upshot of this is that the rhythm section is often denied songwriting credit because the parts they contribute somehow aren't as meaningful. If a drummer or bassist is expected to write his/her part, aren't they also composing and therefore being songwriters?

 

How many songwriting credits does John Bonham have? IIRC he was credited on every song on the first Zep album but after that only on his showpiece tunes ("Moby Dick", "Bonzo's Montreux", etc.). And yet the remaining members of Zep stated that Zep died when Bonham died. I think that is because not only did they lose his incredible performance skills, they also lost his incredible songwriting skills. Yet who considers Bonham to have been a songwriter?

[Gruupi]

Very true on musician credits. Alot of times the groove or riff is what makes the song, not the chords and melody. In fact alot of music is devoid of any unique harmony and melody that hasn't been done, its the feel and sounds that make it new.

 

In many band situations I think all the musicians should get some kind of publishing rights. Maybe it would be hard in a case like the Beatles, but even though the 3 "writers" should get notice, I assume Ringo got less money out of the deal, seems unfair. Its like saying a drummer is not a musician (well with the drummers I know sometimes I wonder lol). I guess its really hard to quantify songwriting from a royalty perspective amongst all the musicians on a recording.

[Squ]

Well, consider this copyright case, where George Harrison got sued and lost:

 

http://www.benedict.com/Audio/Harrison/Harrison.aspx

[Eric VB]

Well, consider this copyright case, where George Harrison got sued and lost:

 

http://www.benedict.com/Audio/Harrison/Harrison.aspx

Thanks for the link, Squ.

 

From what I read (and listened to) on that page the infringement was on the melody (that the lyrics are set to), not the arrangement.

 

As a side note, everyone be careful out there when working up melodies using the major pentatonic scale!

[Eric VB]

To show that I really have something on topic to say, how about Mike Oldfield?

 

Not only is he a guitarist/songwriter, he played more than 20 different instruments on his album Tubular Bells.

[Yogi]

Mike Keneally is my current favorite songwriter/composer, and there aren't too many things he can't play on guitar or keys.

 

Arrangments are not copyrightable, BTW. All that matters to the copyright office is what the underlying chord changes are, and then the melody/words that go on top. If you write all that stuff, and someone else adds congas and a bitchen horn part to the recording, you still get sole songwriting credit. Even if it's the horns that make it a "hit."