Are today's keyboards and sounds expressive?

[MikeT156]

Lately, I've been listening to Public Radio before bedtime. They have a great selection of the classics performed by the Boston Pops, London Symphony Orchestra, and other such musical organizations and orchestras. Listening to the bowing and vibrato of string instruments, the expressiveness of those acoustic instruments is astounding!!

 

Although I pride myself on doing decent string arrangements similar to the songs I am covering, I couldn't help but think that although todays keyboards are a vast improvement over many of the previous generations, they fall way short of the real instruments, especially in terms of expressiveness.

 

What can MI manufacturers do to improve the expressiveness of their instruments? Is it just the sounds or is it a problem with the design and cost of electronic instruments? Is the lack of expressiveness because Manf. are stuck at certain price points and can only provide so much functionality for the dollar? Do you think its the laws of physics, E.G. you can't play a violin part on a keyboard like you can on a real violin?

 

Mike T.

[mate stubb]

It's an unfair comparison. You have one person playing 10 notes on one instrument being asked to replicate the expressiveness of 10 people playing a single note on 10 instruments.

 

Lay your string lines down a single note at a time, imitating the bowing precisely, adding vibrato manually instead of turning on an LFO, and you can achieve expressive results.

 

Same with brass - use a breath controller to master the articulation shadings and you will be amazed.

[ProfD]

I believe it really comes down to the player. While the effect may not be exactly that of bowing and vibrato, good players represent expressively using sounds in both old and newer boards.

 

Again, Joe Zawinul is a king of expression using synth sounds i.e. M1 and Prophet T8.

 

 

[RABid]

Keyboards are much more expressive now than they were 20 years ago. It is up to the user to learn how to be expressive. Layered pads are not the way to go. Personally, I think every synth player should spend some time on guitar or sax. When you realize how expressive you can be on those instruments you begin to push yourself to learn more control over nuances of sound when playing a synth.

[SilverDragonSoun]

Keyboards are much more expressive now than they were 20 years ago. It is up to the user to learn how to be expressive. Layered pads are not the way to go. Personally, I think every synth player should spend some time on guitar or sax. When you realize how expressive you can be on those instruments you begin to push yourself to learn more control over nuances of sound when playing a synth.

 

 

Robert I think your point about people spending time in a sax or guitar to learn how to be expressive is a great one. I think this gives an insight and understanding you can't experience or get from a keyboard. I believe this type of understanding alters your approach immensly as to how your approach certain sounds and the overall all process of expressiveness.

[Finale]

It's impossible to achieve an expressive rendition of another type of instrument using a keyboard interface and electronic means without knowing how this other instrument is played, its limitations and its possibilities.

 

So before you can sound like a violin using a keyboard, not only you need to know how it's played by a violinist, but you also need to think like a violinist as you play on the keyboard interface. So of course, this implies certain limitations.

[MikeT156]

Quote by Matt_Stubb:

 

"It's an unfair comparison. You have one person playing 10 notes on one instrument being asked to replicate the expressiveness of 10 people playing a single note on 10 instruments.

 

Lay your string lines down a single note at a time, imitating the bowing precisely, adding vibrato manually instead of turning on an LFO, and you can achieve expressive results.

 

Same with brass - use a breath controller to master the articulation shadings and you will be amazed".

 

Matt, you missed my drift. I think I know how to play and record a string quartet by now. Anyway, I wasn't talking about MY playing, I was asking about the ability of today's instruments themselves in terms of expressiveness.

 

Mike T.

[Jazzwee]

Going back to pianos, it really is a big difference playing with a high end grand piano compared to a digital. I didn't really realize it so much until I began to actively search for Grands.

 

There was so much control in a real grand. A subtlety that wasn't developed in my years of focusing on a digital. This is why I'm of the belief that you'd have to always practice on both.

 

Tremenduous improvements over the years but it isn't all about electronics and sampling (or modeling). Manufacturers have to rethink the physics of key actions and how the signal is triggered. It's not all about velocity and aftertouch. There's release and levels of release to be considered. All in all a very complex topic.

[oscarr111111]

I hope this thread doesn't go bad like the last one on this topic.

 

My opinion an instrument emulation is that its impossible to emulate other instruments (especially acoustic ones) properly on a keyboard. Sure you can get them sounding 'good', but even the absolute best emulation is still instantly identifiable to even an amateur ear. I believe that emulated instruments are a useful tool for songwriters and composers to draw up a 'rough copy' with, so they can easily hear what their music will sound like without needing to learn to play every instrument in creation, but I feel strongly that it is nowhere near the real thing and should not be passed off as such.

 

Of course, if you are going for that 'sampled acoustic guitar' sound (as an example, applies to any emulation), then by all means use it, the first rule of music is: 'if it sounds good, it IS good' after all. As soon as you try and replace the real thing with emulation though then the integrity of your music suffers.

 

In terms of expressiveness my opinion is that a keyboard is not as expressive in some ways as for example string instrument, but makes up for it in other ways. I think that the fact that when playing a keyboard you are not actually controlling the sound directly (you create a signal on your input device, signal goes to a computer, computer modifies the signal based on pre-programmed parameters, modified signal triggers sounds) detracts from the expressiveness, it takes out the direct interaction with the sound you get from bending a string (for example). Note that this judgment on keyboards does not apply to acoustic ones, only digital, a good piano with a good player sitting at it is about as expressive as it gets.

 

I think the keyboard makes up for this however with its amazingly developed harmonic potential, it takes a little more knowledge and practice to master harmonic expression than simple manipulative expression but it is something keyboards excel at.

 

My overall opinion is (and I've said this before):

'Play to your instruments strengths rather than trying to overcompensate for its weaknesses'.

 

 

If anyone reads this and is about to post a rant along the lines of 'WTF KEYBOARDS ARE SO EXPRESSIVE' then please just ask for clarification on my points first, I don't want another epic thread like last time where I have to keep re-explaining my opinion for every new person who comes into the thread and misinterprets what I've said, thanks'

[Markyboard]

Expressiveness is hiding one's lack of ability to play steady and consistent.

[Tusker]

It's a great question Mike.

 

Today's keyboard instruments are capable of different kinds of expressiveness than traditional instruments. They are capable of great pitch range, almost any dynamic range, and tremendous timbre change. So why do we have so much "piano plus strings" and "choir pads", when it's the keyboardist's turn to play?

 

It's not just the instrument. It's that the instrument's voice(s) have not been legitimized. It takes courage and artistic integrity to legitimize unfamiliar sounds. These videos evidence amazing expressive potential to me:

 

Sancious:

Vangelis:

 

It's up to us keyboardists to make the music compelling. And to find our voice(es).

 

Jerry

[Jazzwee]

Expressiveness is hiding one's lack of ability to play steady and consistent.

 

Expressiveness is in fact being able to vary what you want to do. A constant sound can get boring. Not disimilar to listening to sax on my keyboard. Expressiveness implies control, not randomness -- not to be confused with lack of chops.

 

 

[kanker.]

I actually dug a lot of the older ROMplers that had very limited sample ROM so the sounds weren't hyper realistic - the sounds had more character, and were therefore much more expressive, at least to my ears.

[Markyboard]

To each his own. I for one do not get bored listening to sex on my keyboard.

[oscarr111111]

To each his own. I for one do not get bored listening to sex on my keyboard.

 

Lewd samples mapped to keys?

 

How does that go down with the audience? Did you get called back to play the same gig again?

[ITGITC]

 

Just as I figured...

 

Somehow I just KNEW that, like so many others, this thread was going to get messy.

 

Sex on the Keyboard. Izzat like Sex on the Beach?

 

I never knew what they put in that drink.

 

Same for Long Island Iced Tea.

 

I'm sure it's something that, if spilled on the floor, would be sticky.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

To each his own. I for one do not get bored listening to sex on my keyboard.

 

:grin: What patch number is that please? I may need to change my mind on this.

[Markyboard]

Just yankin you Jazzwee Uhh...err.... on second thought...never mind!

[Leberwurst]

I never knew what they put in that drink.

 

the places where I go they use alcohol... lotsa

 

 

[Kayvon]

Expressiveness is hiding one's lack of ability to play steady and consistent.

 

Hmmm, people say I can't play steady and consistent, I say they've never heard of Rubato

[Jazzwee]

Expressiveness is hiding one's lack of ability to play steady and consistent.

 

Hmmm, people say I can't play steady and consistent, I say they've never heard of Rubato

 

When I was a little bad on groove, I would always use the rubato excuse.

 

My teacher referred to that as the "solo piano syndrome" :grin:

Fortunately now my groove is fine so I've been cured.

 

 

 

 

[delirium]

Expressiveness is hiding one's lack of ability to play steady and consistent.

 

never thought about that like that :grin:

 

Expressiveness with digital instruments is all fake. If you don't generate the sound buy yourself you can forget about the expressiveness. No bending wheels, joysticks or ribbons can help you.

 

 

[delirium]

Test of expressiveness is pretty simple. All chicks are usually chasing guitarist not keyboardist...

[RABid]

Expressiveness is hiding one's lack of ability to play steady and consistent.

 

never thought about that like that :grin:

 

Expressiveness with digital instruments is all fake. If you don't generate the sound buy yourself you can forget about the expressiveness. No bending wheels, joysticks or ribbons can help you.

 

 

I think you are way, way, way off with that one. If you have 4 sliders on a keyboard tie Ring Mod, Filter, an LFO that is almost at an audible rate, and the volum of an extra osc set two octives higher than the rest to those faders. Learn how to use neuance.

 

It is not about trying to sound just like a sax or a guitar, it's about coming up with your own expressive sound and KNOWING how to control it.

 

As for Markyboard's quote, for me it was backward. 25 years ago I played like my piano teacher taught me. Expressiveness was limited to tempo, dynamics and grace notes. Years of experience, talent and the drive to do more has allowed me to break out of those restrictions. "Steady and consistant" usually means boring. You might enjoy Wynton Marsalis ... I prefer Dizzy.

[delirium]

"Steady and consistant" usually means boring. You might enjoy Wynton Marsalis ... I prefer Dizzy.

 

I guess you're right usually when I'm dizzy I sound much better...

(and I'm sure not only me)

 

 

[BluesKeys]

I believe it really comes down to the player. While the effect may not be exactly that of bowing and vibrato, good players represent expressively using sounds in both old and newer boards.

 

Again, Joe Zawinul is a king of expression using synth sounds i.e. M1 and Prophet T8.

 

 

I am with ProfD on this one.... You have hit on an area that I have indulged deeply in over the last several months. I had NEVER played strings in live shows in my life. I had no idea what to do when I joined a horn band. I am all the sudden learning strings and patterns alien to me.

 

Things I have learned

1. Strings are there for flavor... use sparingly

2. Strings can not be duplicated but they can be replicated so follow the line even if you can't get the tremolo right.

3. Counter melodies are the ticket

4. Follow the bass line

5. Follow the vocal line]

6. Did I mention COUNTER MELODIES?

 

If you want to learn string lines spend several hours listening to the Temptations... My Girl, among the best. You will find out the reason everyone who covers that tune SUCKS. Without the string line there is no song and that has to do with counter melodies.

 

Learning strings for me has been an enlightening experience. It's like I now have a new instrument at my disposal.

[ITGITC]

And you've been trying to tell me this for the past four weeks, Jimmy.

 

For me, lately I've been so busy covering bread and butter sounds that I don't get a chance to play strings.

 

There are some Take Six voice programs on the Kurz that I would really like to use in performance. But it's got to be the right time and place.

 

Another cool voice is the accordian. In the right context it's a blast to play.

 

But I agree that, when tracking string parts, it's best to lay them down one note at a time instead of a chord. It sounds so much more realistic simply to have the vibrato timing unique to every note.

 

After reading the thread about expression pedals yesterday, I came home, fired up the PC2X and played through the Classic Key programs using the pedal every chance I got. I thought I had a dirty pot, but it seems to be OK now. Perhaps it was just when I was using the pedal with the B3 emulation that I heard it.

 

Yeah. Strings are cool. And playing brass parts alongside a sax player can work well too. You're not quite as naked if you've got the real sax hitting the attacks and helping the over all sound to be true.

 

What the hell am I saying? Everybody on this forum already knows this.

 

Uh Oh... I'm grumpy. Damn.

 

Alright. I'm going for the milk and cookies, then I'm off to bed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeNZ]

Now that you have seriously attacked the Classic Keys ROM make sure you push on through to the upper end of the sound bank where you will find Mellotron and ARP strings, pad, voice, and wind sounds. These are the sounds used in many classic recordings, and you may prefer them to the orchestral ROM string sounds for some tunes. There is a lot more grit and movement in these sounds than most of the preset orchestral sounds.

 

Look in the Classic Keys ROM setups too - there are some real treats, like A28 Warpdrive Pad - grab a bunch of keys then stomp on the sustain pedal to enter hyperspace!

 

For brass parts I just pick up my trumpet in the right hand, and play along on the keyboard with my left. My trumpet articulation covers up whatever else I play lower down.

 

Michael

[Finale]

About strings...

 

Deep Thought #1 - Contrary to the double bass guy who tends to think in fourths (the way the strings on his instrument are tuned), the violin, viola and cello players tend to think in fifths.

 

Deep Thought #1 Conclusion A - Avoid narrow strings chords playing on a keyboard. Spread those chords over two or three octaves instead (ex: Am with A3+E4+C5+A5).

 

Deep Thought #1 Conclusion B - You now understand why guitarists tend to be confused.

[Finale]

MikeNZ, naaaaah.

 

Tom's favorite Classic Keys set-up on the Kurz is #394.

 

Go figure why.