Economy or alternate picking?

[Psalms of Death]

Economy or alternate picking? That is the question. Which method do you prefer? Do you find your method to be the superior method of picking? Do you find the other method to be the inferior method of picking? What is your answer?

 

For a while, or rather long time, I myself used economy picking until I strted taking classes off of a new instructor whom suggested that I make a transition to alternate picking due to the benefits that come along down the road with sufficient experience. Many plebeians on the internet that I've seen and interacted with have disdained alternate picking and recommended economy claiming that with economy picking one will gain unequivocal speed and technique with experience seeing as Malmsteen used economy picking, so they claimed. I was skeptical due to the fact that upon my transition from economy to alternate picking my speed increased quite profoundly when all the time I had been using economy picking I seemed to hit a plateau in my playing. My instructor is an amasing player himself - he uses alternate picking and is the equivalent to Malmsteen, Friedman, Becker and any other "big time" guitarist out there.

 

So anyways, I await you answers.

[Gruupi]

I use picks and fingers, no real thought to it really. I am more concerned with being able to get tonal variations than how many notes I can play per second. Its not that I don't work on right hand technique, I just don't have a set picking pattern.

 

Anything I can do to not sound like Malmsteen is the way I'll go. I admire his speed but everything sounds exactly the same, no dynamics or phrasing. With a bit of work he could be good though.

 

I remember reading debates in GP years ago about jazz guys playing strict alternate picking. I thought it was as bogus then as it is now. Technique is supposed to support the music, not be a rule to itself. I'm not even sure what economy picking is? It sounds like being intuitive and using whatever works best for the phrase you are playing, that sounds like the way to go for me.

[GovernorSilver]

Don't a lot of those shredder guys achieve their athletic feats with BOTH alternate AND economy/sweep picking? Brett Garsed, despite his disclaimers, achieves super speed with hybrid picking. Hybrid Picking is the modern, generalized term for pick-and-finger technique, as opposed to "chicken pickin'" which implies pick-and-finger technique within a specific musical style.

 

What technique you use should be determined by the music you are trying to play.

[Squ]

No right/wrong answer I'd say. People go fast enough with either way.

[Gifthorse]

I know how to do the sweep picking or economy picking. I practice it from time to time, but I really don't use it.

 

See the whole difference I notice is that supposedly economy picking is smoother--it has its own sound for sure. I can see how that could be the case because there is less movement on the right hand. I can get the same legato phrasing from alternate picking and hammering/pulling off.

 

A long time ago I set out to accomplish a goal for my technique (in the 80's). I wanted to be able to make my picked notes sound hammered on (if need be) and my hammered/pulled off notes sound picked. So in other words it would meet in the middle.

 

Alternate picking offers more dynamic control. I wasn't aware that Yngwie used economy. I figure he does what i do. I mean pick some, pull off some, pick some more.

 

In case people are unfamiliar with economy picking it is a technique where you pick every string for 3 notes always ending on a downstroke. That way with that down stroke you are able to attack the next string with a downstroke. It is efficient and the mastery of this technique makes your picking technique sound more fluid. But you know, that can be done with alternate picking too.

 

Brett Garsed is an unbelievable player. One of my fav electric shred type players. You know kind of like an Australian Wayne Krantz meets Eric Johnson.

 

Often times I notice that alot of shredder type players are so busy with the whole uniformity game (attacking every note the same) they never develop real right hand dynamics.

 

You can make 1 note sound a million different ways, just from how you attack the string. Guys like EVH, Beck, Gibbons, Vai are like that. Of course playing through a Marshall JCM 800 turned to 10 doesn't hurt. But that isn't a forgiving tone for alot of the shredders of today who use 2 times as much gain. If you don't have real technique an old Marshall will make you sound like a hack.

 

[marvar]

I was watching a dvd the other day- The Doobie Bros at Wolftrap, and I really started watching John Mcfee and Pat Simmons doing leads, I noticed that the majority of the time they were doing leads with an upsweep of the pick- I haven't figured out why they play that way, but they sure sounded smooth.It got me to thinking about how I play leads, and honestly, I do a bit of both. I never really concentrated on how I play, I just do it, and it comes out the way it comes out. Then again, I've never been properly schooled on the guitar, so my method (madness?)is all self-devised.

[Justus A. Picker]

Classical technique most of the time. I rarely use a pick.

[Gifthorse]

one classical technique I want to improve on are those tremolo rest strokes. If that is the correct term. I don't really incorporate them but they are really cool.

 

 

[Professor Monkey]

I think I use a hyrbrid of both but primarily of economy picking.. I just dont like having a set rule of picking.. its not.. fun?

[Psalms of Death]

I suppose everyone has their own style of picking. Whichever is more aesthetically pleasing then that's what they should use. I suppose when I head to college next year I shall have to learn economy picking as that comes along with the curriculum. Supposedly the place uses a very good curriculum. I believe it is the curriculum GIT uses.

[Guitarzan]

all i know is that i tend to attack the notes when i get excited.

i may play a note repeatedly but with various amounts of force.

i don't have alot of speed but i try to add excitement with my right hand.

oops did i say that? :grin:

[Gifthorse]

You practice right hand technique and scales, exercises, arpeggios and all that so when you are playing with your band you don't have to think when you play. You just listen and create what you want to hear. You know cuz you have all those tools that you have internalized.

 

I don't think about technique in terms of whether or not I am doing this or that. It is a means to an end for me. Anything you practice effects everything else positively. I never use economy picking. But practicing it will only make me better. You know, maybe it will make me better at a certain dimension of rythm playing. My point is, everything effects everything else, and if you are working on something it will make you better always.

 

[Psalms of Death]

Oh, I practise right hand technique all of the time and always bring along a metronome. I practise scales constantly, speed excercises, improvise (jam) along with my Practise Trax CD, et cetera et cetera. That all takes place in the timeframe of three hours everyday which would do well to be lengthened to at least four hours everyday. I just remembered I have maybe 20 pages worth of printed arpeggios merely sitting and collecting dust ... perhaps I need to look into those.

[Gifthorse]

Technique is a broad term. It is hard to even sum up. It means so many things.

 

Ultimately it is about expression. I remember how intensely I worked on that uniform picking speed shit when I was in my teens. I didn't have any friends for one summer in highschool and all I did was practice from morning until night. My parents worried cuz my Mom didn't want me to be into music cuz its wierdo shit when you practice that much. Also, back then we didn't have the internet. Very few shredders were at my disposal.

Anyways, the result was that I hated myself cuz I couldn't sweep pick like Vinnie Moore, and Allan Holdsworth was a pipe dream. I used to sit and wonder, "what the hell do I have to do to be able to do that?" I mean Holdsworth is kind of off limits to everyone or something. Like if he was in the crapper leaving you a grumpy saddle, there would probably be some kind of "Allan Holdsworth is pooping" sign outside the door. Dunno.

 

I realize now that just takes time and dedication. But that is just the tip of the iceberg of technique. Technique isn't how fast you play, it is how you play. The fast part becomes secondary to your ear development. At least to me it did. I hate listening to 'amazing' players who play like they are typing a letter--that they have typed way too many times.

[Guitarzan]

tHat Sure...... as hEll DOesn't desCRibe MEEEEEEEEEE :grin:

notice the feel in my typing.

("me" is tremelo typed)

[EmptinesOf Youth]

i refuse to alternate pick. for what i want to play, normal picking seems to work plenty fine. i had a friend who ive been jamming with a number of years who alternate picks everything. Recently he found out that i dont do it at all. He was kinda surprised.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I guess I don't understand why any player would need to make a choice between any picking techinque? You choose the technique that fits what your are doing and what the music calls for, including finger picking, and tapping, what ever is called for and is done in good taste and is musical.

[GovernorSilver]

Oh, I practise right hand technique all of the time and always bring along a metronome. I practise scales constantly, speed excercises, improvise (jam) along with my Practise Trax CD, et cetera et cetera. That all takes place in the timeframe of three hours everyday which would do well to be lengthened to at least four hours everyday. I just remembered I have maybe 20 pages worth of printed arpeggios merely sitting and collecting dust ... perhaps I need to look into those.

 

So you just practice exercises instead of music?

 

There is so much tab out there on the internet. Even printing out a tab of one of your favorite guitar solos and working on that is preferable to practicing exercises that have no musical purpose.

 

I guess I'm sounding a bit harsh, but "guitar exercises" that have no musical purpose have never done anything for me. What has always advanced my guitar playing is learning real music, whether it's a simple one like "Love Me Do" by the Beatles or a bebop melody (one of five parts, of an arrangement of a Charlie Christian guitar solo for 5 guitars - man what a pain in the butt to play but it sure improved my playing). It will become obvious to you when you play real music that some parts of it will be more comfortable to play with economic picking and others will be more comfortable to play with alternate picking/string skipping, and so on.

 

If I work on an "exercise" it is usually because I have trouble with a particular musical passage and I need to break the problem down into simpler things to practice (is the problem with right-hand technique? is the problem with left hand shifting? etc.)

 

If you need to give yourself some direction in your practice and are serious about musicianship, Berklee Modern Method for Guitar is an excellent way to go. It has picking exercises that actually sound like music, chord work, etc.

[GovernorSilver]

Brett Garsed is an unbelievable player. One of my fav electric shred type players. You know kind of like an Australian Wayne Krantz meets Eric Johnson.

 

I only recently discovered him too. To me he sounds like Allan Holdsworth except when playing chords and slide. I somehow stumbled upon his instructional DVD and ordered it from him (got a nice, friendly email acknowledgement in reply) because it covers a lot of material I'm interested in - hybrid picking, slide, legato phrasing (big fan of that liquid, hornlike sound), ideas for breaking out of "boxes" and using a wider range of the fretboard, etc. Very good stuff. He repeatedly insists he's "not a speed guy" then proceeds to demonstrate the material a slow, medium, and blazingly fast speeds.

 

It's been interesting checking out the video and mp3 clips at his site (http://www.brettgarsed.com/) and seeing how he's evolved. He had his own 2-handed tapping approach and was fairly wild with the whammy bar. Now he's more into slide, has abandoned the whammy in favor of hardtail axes, and abandoned the tapping for more refined hybrid picking and legato technique.

 

Hybrid Picking to me just makes sense - working on it improves my ability to grab notes on higher strings with my pinky and ring finger while playing other notes with my pick and middle finger. Now, not using the pinky is like trying to play tennis on one foot. I suppose if I grew my right-hand fingernails longer I'd have a better chance of getting closer to Garsed's speed in executing arpeggios and the like, but to me speed isn't the point - the point is to have full use of all available right hand fingers for MUSIC.

 

Allan Holdsworth, who influenced a number of legato-style shredders (Garsed, Lane, etc.), uses surprisingly little gain. His basic lead tone is a clean boost pedal (I think it's either a TC Electronic or an MXR Micro Amp) and a compressor pedal straight into the power amp input, bypassing the preamp section. to get pure power tube saturation, then a device to convert speaker output to line-level signal so he can apply EQ and delay. I heard Scott Henderson does something similar - he does have a similarly smooth and full-bodied lead tone.

[Psalms of Death]

Oh, I practise right hand technique all of the time and always bring along a metronome. I practise scales constantly, speed excercises, improvise (jam) along with my Practise Trax CD, et cetera et cetera. That all takes place in the timeframe of three hours everyday which would do well to be lengthened to at least four hours everyday. I just remembered I have maybe 20 pages worth of printed arpeggios merely sitting and collecting dust ... perhaps I need to look into those.

 

So you just practice exercises instead of music?

 

There is so much tab out there on the internet. Even printing out a tab of one of your favorite guitar solos and working on that is preferable to practicing exercises that have no musical purpose.

 

I guess I'm sounding a bit harsh, but "guitar exercises" that have no musical purpose have never done anything for me. What has always advanced my guitar playing is learning real music, whether it's a simple one like "Love Me Do" by the Beatles or a bebop melody (one of five parts, of an arrangement of a Charlie Christian guitar solo for 5 guitars - man what a pain in the butt to play but it sure improved my playing). It will become obvious to you when you play real music that some parts of it will be more comfortable to play with economic picking and others will be more comfortable to play with alternate picking/string skipping, and so on.

 

If I work on an "exercise" it is usually because I have trouble with a particular musical passage and I need to break the problem down into simpler things to practice (is the problem with right-hand technique? is the problem with left hand shifting? etc.)

 

If you need to give yourself some direction in your practice and are serious about musicianship, Berklee Modern Method for Guitar is an excellent way to go. It has picking exercises that actually sound like music, chord work, etc.

 

I use to only practise/speed excercises until recently when I took on Judas Priest's "Hellbent For Leather" solo and began working with that and have been since I started working on it weeks ago. The other day I printed out Iron Maiden's "The Trooper" and Metallica's "Jump in the Fire" and began working on those to put some "excitement," so to speak, in my practise due to the fact merely practising right hand technique and left technique was beginning to become a bore. Soloing over music tracks from this book I bought really helped as well seeing as improvising with the scales I know with no music to play against was quite besetting.

 

Berklee Modern Method for Guitar, eh? I shall indeed look into that - my thanks.

[Hardtail]

When this topic comes up, the one thing that always gets missed is muting technique(s).

 

Playing fast is futile if you can't stop the extraneous strings from ringing. People I've seen who throttle the gain never notice this and sound like crap when they play clean.

 

[Gifthorse]

I thought Holdsworth was playing through the THD univalve, using the univalve as a preamp for a power amp.

 

He seems to always be changing stuff.

 

Holdsworth or Garsed have real technique. They don't need distortion to sound like themselves. Holdsworth sounds the same on acoustic as he does on electric.

[Gifthorse]

When this topic comes up, the one thing that always gets missed is muting technique(s).

 

Playing fast is futile if you can't stop the extraneous strings from ringing. People I've seen who throttle the gain never notice this and sound like crap when they play clean.

 

True, in fact when you play through alot of distortion this is VERY important to control string noise. Thats what impressed me so much with Vai when I first heard him. How he never had any glitches or other strings ringing out when he played runs or did anything. Thats one element of electric that is tougher to do than acoustic.

[doc taz]

Alternate picking feels more natural to me. I find it difficult to do those palm muted death metal phrases using economy picking... and besides, it doesn't sound as aggressive.

 

Lately, I've been listening to a lot of Necrophagist, and the guitarists don't even employ economy picking in their solos. If you want a peek at one of them, you can check out the video for the Ibanez Xiphos guitar (cool looking battle ax to me... )

 

http://ibanez.com/eg/xiphos.aspx

 

[picker]

It's a palette of tonal colors and phrasing variations. The more colors one has, the more varied the finished products. Why limit yourself to one style of picking when you can use different ones for different things?

[GovernorSilver]

I thought Holdsworth was playing through the THD univalve, using the univalve as a preamp for a power amp.

 

He seems to always be changing stuff.

 

Holdsworth or Garsed have real technique. They don't need distortion to sound like themselves. Holdsworth sounds the same on acoustic as he does on electric.

 

Agreed. Holdsworth's acoustic guitar solo on Velvet Darkness (sorry, can't remember the name of the specific track) showcases this brilliantly.

 

Most of what I know of Allan's rig and the basic philosophy behind is from posts by Chip, a friend of his who owns several guitars once played by Allan, to the forums at http://www.therealallanholdsworth.com/forum/. He may be swapping specific amps and other pieces of gear in and out frequently, but the basic formula for his lead tone has been relatively constant:

 

Guitar -> Amp Switcher (separate amps for clean and lead sounds) -> Boost and Compressor Pedals -> Power Tube section (preamp section bypassed) -> Speaker Out to Line Level Converter -> EQ -> Delay/Reverb

 

I remember he was unhappy with the Rocktron Holdsworth Harness product(s) because they changed the resistor values in his circuit design. This was what he used to convert the speaker out from the power tube section of his lead amp to line level signal. He addressed this situation by making and selling his own version of the Harness for a while. I have no doubt he uses or has used THD gear, since a THD rep reads and posts to the Holdsworth forums. He also uses Yamaha DG series amps and effects processors (Magicstomp pedals with the DG sounds) because he likes their amp modeling technology. Because of his latest deal, with Hughes & Kettner, he's touring with their amps, but apparently he still prefers the Yamaha modeling technology and so plugs Magicstomps into the power amp input of those amps. It'll be interesting to compare the VG-99's modeling tech to my real tube amp, as I'm just starting to explore the power tube saturation sound myself - I've been merely using preamp distortion like most other folks.

[MILLO]

Thats what impressed me so much with Vai when I first heard him. How he never had any glitches or other strings ringing out when he played runs or did anything. Thats one element of electric that is tougher to do than acoustic.

 

I get the same impressions from Holdsworth and Chris Poland.

 

Great topic, no matter how much we discuss it!

[GovernorSilver]

I use to only practise/speed excercises until recently when I took on Judas Priest's "Hellbent For Leather" solo and began working with that and have been since I started working on it weeks ago. The other day I printed out Iron Maiden's "The Trooper" and Metallica's "Jump in the Fire" and began working on those to put some "excitement," so to speak, in my practise due to the fact merely practising right hand technique and left technique was beginning to become a bore. Soloing over music tracks from this book I bought really helped as well seeing as improvising with the scales I know with no music to play against was quite besetting.

 

Berklee Modern Method for Guitar, eh? I shall indeed look into that - my thanks.

 

Oh, so you are working on music after all. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

 

I recall you said you were planning to pursue college music degree? How is your sight-reading? The Berklee Method book(s) should help - I've been bad at reading standard notation on guitar, but the Berklee Method has been very helpful in remedying that situation. It will also help with the music theory. My buddy who graduated from the Berklee program says the books are so packed with information he can still refer to them from time to time and get something new every time, or at least recall something he forgot.

 

As for picking, I've found alternate picking works better for music that requires syncing up with other instruments (drums, bass, etc.). Economy picking is ok too, but for playing in rhythm at decent tempi, people find they have to really work at it. One of the pioneers of the technique, Chuck Wayne (jazz guitarist who predated Gambale, shred guitar, etc. by decades), insisted his students practice only economy picking for at least 6 months or so - otherwise it's nearly impossible to execute with swing feel as faster tempi. I've noticed when jazz guitarists use it, it's mostly for quick note bursts or triplets rather than for playing phrases that rhythmically match the rest of the band - eg. 8th or 16th notes in swing feel at 200+ bpm.

[Gifthorse]

There are alot of guys like that, Beck included.

 

Real technique creates tone. It doesn't rely on exterior things like distortion. I know you know that Millo cuz your a classical player.

[b3_john]

If you need to give yourself some direction in your practice and are serious about musicianship, Berklee Modern Method for Guitar is an excellent way to go. It has picking exercises that actually sound like music, chord work, etc.

As I understand it, the BMMG is an old guitar method book that has simply been kept in print over the years, correct? So an old version of the books should be as good as a new HL printing? Also, there seems to be a BMMG in DVD, for anyone who has seen this, how is it different than the books?

 

John