"I'm old/new school except when it comes to......."

[GuitarPlayerFL]

Let's say, in a particular activity, you do things all old school OR all new school.....except for something which is the opposite and you have to do it that way.

 

I prefer using hardware for recording. I use a Roland VS-890 hard disk recorder and an Alesis SR-16 drum machine and MMT-8 sequencer which are both MIDIed to the VS-890. I love knobs, sliders, and fadars.

 

I've tried using a control surface and it doesn't come close to the feeling of hardware...not to mention the stability in hardware. And I like limits. I don't want unlimited tracks.

I want about 8 tracks max...this makes you concentrate on getting the framework down with little fluff. (Then, after the song is worked out, you can add tracks if they're needed.)

 

BUT...

 

Trying to program drums on a drum machine is a royal PITA.

 

So I use VS Pro (Datasonics) on a computer to create MIDI drums to drive the SR-16.

 

Anybody flip flop?

[miroslav]

Not sure what you are refering to by "flip-flop"...what you real question is...?

 

 

 

 

[Griffinator]

His question is, if you're predominantly "new school" (working in the box) then what are your "old school" exceptions, and vice versa.

[miroslav]

Whatever works for the job at hand based on your available gear.

[Griffinator]

Whatever works for the job at hand based on your available gear.

 

He's asking you what your personal preferences are, not general advice. Come on Miro, work with us here!

[GuitarPlayerFL]

Whatever works for the job at hand based on your available gear.

 

He's asking you what your personal preferences are, not general advice. Come on Miro, work with us here!

 

 

 

Yes....somebody hasn't had their morning latte yet! :grin:

[Michael Patrick]

Even though we recorded our latest album digitally using ProTools, I refused to use any digital modelers for my guitars. No plugins, no Pod. Just a guitar, maybe some pedals, and a cranked amp. One mic on the cabinet, one in the room, and hit the record button.

 

I didn't even want to do much in the way of manipulation after it was recorded, although we did use the backwards function on this tune.... I think I might have spliced a solo together on one track, maybe two, but I guess you can do that with tape, too.

[Griffinator]

Now there's an interesting side trip, Mike. You keep both the close mic and the room mic? How do you pan them? I'm in a dual-guitar situation, and was considering trying this (57 off-axis close up, big condensor in the room) and panning the close-mic to about halfway to one side, then hard-panning the big condensor, to create a sense of space and a nice substitute for each of us doubling our tracks.

[miroslav]

Whatever works for the job at hand based on your available gear.

 

He's asking you what your personal preferences are, not general advice. Come on Miro, work with us here!

 

 

 

Yes....somebody hasn't had their morning latte yet! :grin:

 

My answer is still the same.whatever the situation calls for and with the available gear.

 

But here are some scenarios:

 

I track to tape (old school)

I use a real drummer...BUT...I have programmed drums in the past (tried new school and went back to old school)

When I finish tracking I dump everything into a DAW (new school)

I do edits and comps, and minor "spot" processing in the DAW (new school)

After editing...I bring everything back out of the DAW and mix through a real console using all outboard gear (new school AND old school)

Then I capture that stereo mix back into the DAW and from there I prep it for or actually complete the mastering (new school).

 

Now...there are time that I will track direct-to-disk (new school)

And there may even been times when I plug my guitars into a sim-box and go DI into the computer (new school)

Bit most times I like to do it with real amps and real mics (old school)

 

OK...so was there anything specific you wanted to ask...? :grin:

 

[Michael Patrick]

Now there's an interesting side trip, Mike. You keep both the close mic and the room mic? How do you pan them? I'm in a dual-guitar situation, and was considering trying this (57 off-axis close up, big condensor in the room) and panning the close-mic to about halfway to one side, then hard-panning the big condensor, to create a sense of space and a nice substitute for each of us doubling our tracks.

 

That's what we did, a 57 on the grille and a condenser in the room, about 10' away and about head high. I'm actually not sure how much of each mic wound up in the final mix, we had it mixed by Mike Zirkel at Smart Studios here in Madison so I wasn't at the controls...

[miroslav]

Now there's an interesting side trip, Mike. You keep both the close mic and the room mic? How do you pan them? I'm in a dual-guitar situation, and was considering trying this (57 off-axis close up, big condensor in the room) and panning the close-mic to about halfway to one side, then hard-panning the big condensor, to create a sense of space and a nice substitute for each of us doubling our tracks.

 

I prefer a single mic on the guitar cab (usually between 12 and 24 away.

Room mics may(?) workIF...the room is good and if the ambiance you end up with really works for that song.

I prefer to create my ambience in the DAW and with processingas I can then really control how the pieces fit.

 

With two guitarseach recorded with a single micIll often take the track in the DAW and duplicate them so I have two of each. Then Ill compute all the multiples of the correct short-to-long delay times based on the songs BMP.

I then pan the two identical guitar tracks hard left/right and then bump/delay one of them using the computed BMP delay time. I always start with a real short oneand work my why into the longer ones until I find the one that works best.

For just getting that ambient sense of a guitar in the opposite channel..you have to keep to the short delay sideotherwise, if you pick a longer delaywellit can start to feel disconnected.

Its a balancing game based on the BMP tempo and the overall song, and whatever else you got going on.

I take the second guitar and do the same thing, using the same delay timebut I just have the delayed track on the opposite siteone guitar delays from left to rightand the other from right to left.

Alsoyou dont have to pan them hard...or pan them both hardyou can try different pansbut when they get past a certain point and closer to centerthen the delay fades away and it sounds more like a centered track.

Like I saidtheres a lot of light balancing involved to get it just right.

 

Ill do this with other instruments/tracks tooand I will fan them outso that they are not all hard-panned and stacked on top of each otherbut rather spread/fanned from hard-panned towards centeron both sides.

 

Knowing your songs BMP is importantas you want to try and get the delays to work with thatthough sometimes it may feel right fudged a bit using a delay thats not an exact computation.

Andbesides having a really good room for amb/distance mikingthats the other concern about using two or more mics to trackknowing just how far from the source you can place that second/third mic so that the delay time works with the song after all the other tracks are added.

Unless of course you are going to place them real farand it will be very subtle, without any noticeable delay bounceand just more of a soft wash.

 

[Scott Fraser]

To me, all this stuff is just a bunch of tools, & I select the tool which I think will get me the result I'm after. I never consider whether any given approach is old or new, but rather whether it will be successful or not in achieving the sound I'm after. I plug 50 year old vintage tube microphones into a computer & edit & mix CD projects on my laptop in hotel rooms & airport lounges. Whether old school or new school, whichever school gets you where you're going is the right school at that moment. It's all good.

 

Scott Fraser

[Scott Fraser]

Andbesides having a really good room for amb/distance mikingthats the other concern about using two or more mics to trackknowing just how far from the source you can place that second/third mic so that the delay time works with the song after all the other tracks are added.

Unless of course you are going to place them real farand it will be very subtle, without any noticeable delay bounceand just more of a soft wash.

 

The Haas Effect states that delays under approximately 40 milleseconds are integrated by the brain into a single sound. Thus to perceive an actual delay, as opposed to a phase comb, requires 40 or more milleseconds of offset. This roughly equates to placing a room mic 40 feet back from the amp, at which point you won't be getting individual delays anyway, but a diffuse reverberant field of reflections, or as you say, "a soft wash.". At least in any normal non-anechoic architecture. So I think concerning oneself too much with timing distant mics to song tempo is not relevant, nor practical at all.

Delay vs tempo considerations start to come into play in concert hall situations where balcony & back wall slapback can play absolute havoc with timing to those on stage, but is rarely perceivable to the audience.

 

Scott Fraser

[Michael Patrick]

To me, all this stuff is just a bunch of tools, & I select the tool which I think will get me the result I'm after. I never consider whether any given approach is old or new, but rather whether it will be successful or not in achieving the sound I'm after. I plug 50 year old vintage tube microphones into a computer & edit & mix CD projects on my laptop in hotel rooms & airport lounges. Whether old school or new school, whichever school gets you where you're going is the right school at that moment. It's all good.

 

Scott Fraser

 

 

That's kinda my point too. The tools that will get me the results I'm after are a guitar, some pedals, and an amp that can be cranked. Until they develop modelers that sound like that, I'll keep using the real thing.

 

The other guitar player in my band did use Amp Farm and a couple of other plug-ins. Not my cup of tea, but it worked for him.

[miroslav]

 

The Haas Effect states that delays under approximately 40 milleseconds are integrated by the brain into a single sound.

 

A lot has to do with how you pan the two sounds.

 

If I place two sounds both dead center...with one delayed 10-15ms...you are right...they will just appear as one.

But if I pan one hard left and the other hard right...I CAN hear 10-15ms delays without any problem.

 

While having a room mic back about 10 feet is not a big deal in itself...how you pan it relative to a very close-up mic CAN be noticeable, maybe not as pure "delay" but rather as something that either does or doesn't work.

So my point was that I prefer to create ambience at the mix stage rather than just tossing up some extra mics and then MAKING them fit into the mix later on.though they may also fit nice and easy?

 

[Michael Patrick]

For me, having a room mic wasn't just (or even primarily) to get a delay effect. It also captured/accentuated different frequencies, and just plain had a different feel than the mic that was on the cab. It gave us another option when it came time to do the final mixes.

[Griffinator]

For me, having a room mic wasn't just (or even primarily) to get a delay effect. It also captured/accentuated different frequencies, and just plain had a different feel than the mic that was on the cab. It gave us another option when it came time to do the final mixes.

 

BINGO!

 

It's about getting a different character, to present an illusion of 4 guitars, instead of just double-tracking the same guitar.

 

And yeah, Miro, I've used that delay technique, although I prefer it for vocals moreso than guitar.

[picker]

I'm old school about tube amps except for bass amps. Solid state hits a lot harder and more immediately for low notes. Also, a 300 watt solid state amp doesn't weigh enough to anchor a battleship, whereas an SVT would give Hercules a hernia!

[miroslav]

Sure...with every mic you place around a room you will certainly get a different "character".

 

My point was that you never really know how it will fit inuntil you mix.

Sometimes that room "character" works and sometimes it doesn't.

 

By capturing mostly the amp (using a single mic)...though not necessarily slamming it up against the grill...you can control/create the character later on...at the mix stage.

 

I like to have about a 24" space...or on occasion I've even gone back 3' or more...BUT...I always like to throw a "tent" over the amp & mic rig to prevent any of the room from getting in.

That way...I have some distance/space between the mic and cab...while at the same time keeping it rather dry.

Then I add character to taste when I mix.

 

Hey...there's no real "right/wrong" way...it's just a matter of working with you have...which is what I think is the real point most of us are making.

 

 

[Scott Fraser]

A lot has to do with how you pan the two sounds.

If I place two sounds both dead center...with one delayed 10-15ms...you are right...they will just appear as one.

But if I pan one hard left and the other hard right...I CAN hear 10-15ms delays without any problem.

 

Sure, & this is a subset of Haas known as Precedence. You can have the same signal equal in level in both speakers & as you add delay to one side, up to the Haas limit, it appears to pan toward the undelayed version. I would term this an aspect of stereo phase discrimination rather than really hearing a true delay, but the distinction may in fact be mostly semantic.

 

While having a room mic back about 10 feet is not a big deal in itself...how you pan it relative to a very close-up mic CAN be noticeable, maybe not as pure "delay" but rather as something that either does or doesn't work.

So my point was that I prefer to create ambience at the mix stage rather than just tossing up some extra mics and then MAKING them fit into the mix later on.though they may also fit nice and easy?

 

Hopefully the "tossing" is done with some expertise & an awareness of the ultimate useability of the results. Since pro engineers do this full time, there's a somewhat higher than mere random degree of success attached to the "tossing" of mics around a room. Anyway, technique-wise, whatever works is what's good. Creating ambience post tracking is certainly different than capturing ambience that exists in the recording space, but neither approach is more right nor wrong than the other.

 

Scott Fraser

[Michael Patrick]

We did a good amount of experimentation with mic placement on both the cab and room mics to find the sweet spot.

 

As far as how the two were mixed, like I said we had it mixed at Smart Studios by their top engineer. Given the number of platinum and gold records on the walls at that place, I think they know what they are doing...

[miroslav]

 

Hopefully the "tossing" is done with some expertise & an awareness of the ultimate useability of the results.

 

A figure of speech.

 

Though I'm sure those just starting out may NOT give it the proper thought...and it may be a luck/coincidence thing if it does work well.

 

Creating ambience post tracking is certainly different than capturing ambience that exists in the recording space, but neither approach is more right nor wrong than the other.

 

Absolutely.

 

In my own studio...I do NOT have the excellent, "million dollar" room to warrant intentional room ambience capturing...though with any mic setup, you'll tend to get some room unless you do go for that real close-up positioning and then at the same time limit how much any of the room can get into the micwhich is what I do with the guitar cabs, by placing a "tent" over the whole rig, though the bigger reason why I toss a tent over the guitar rig is to also keep the loudness of the guitar down a bit so that what I hear in my open-back cans is mostly what the mic is capturing rather the loudness in the room getting to my ears.

 

I don't ever capture anything in a totally dead, anechoic space...and then try to create the ambience during the mix.

There's always some room in there...but that's not the same as when you DO have a SUPER room...and you really go for the room sound.

I wish I had a real large room that I could treat and use for that.

 

[miroslav]

I think the majority of people WILL use two (or more) mics on a cab...one close-up against the grill...and the other(s)...at a greater distance.

 

I experimented with various positions and mics for guitar cabs...and while I was able to get a lot of nice setups, including the 2-mic (1 close and the other about 10'-12') approach...

...I was determined to find a more "neutral", one-mic setup that I could easily apply...and then work my tone strictly by choice of guitar and amp/cab, rather than always hunting for a new mic position.

 

I settled on a single tube mic in cardioid...and I just vary the distance from 12" to about 24" for most guitar tracking.

Sometimes I'll go for that slightly off-axis positionother times I point it more at the cone.

But basically it's a "no brainier" setup that's been working well for me.

 

Same thing with my drum kit.

For quite awhile now...I've been stuck on my simple 4-mic setup.

An M/S pair right about over the drummer's knee, equally between the Kick and Snare...and about 3' up above his head.

Then I just spot one mic on the Snare, pointing away from the Hat...and spot another mic inside the Kick about 2" off the front head and slightly off axis, pointing at the beater.

I never take down those mics down...I just toss baggies over them. I can track mics as fast as the drummer can warm up. :grin:

It works REALLY well in the space I'm in...considering it's not a BIG room...but I still get a big kit sound with great left/right balance.

 

I like to keep things as simple as possible when setting up to trackas I really hate getting bogged down with too much fiddling which can kill the mood.

Mind youI like trying new thingsbut most times, the recording is about the songand not so much about some exceptional technique or processingetc.

Though some songs live and die by those things..as they have little else to give.

 

[Scott Fraser]

I wish I had a real large room that I could treat and use for that.

 

Well, have you ever stuck the amp in a bathroom or stairwell? You might have some great useable ambient space around the house which would be worth experimenting with.

 

Scott Fraser

[miroslav]

Well...I have bigger rooms than the bathrooms and stairwell.

 

I was talking about one of those world-class studio rooms...with the 20' ceilings and treatment in all the right places.