what does lydian, dorian mean?

roscopicosound · April 30, 2007

i got 2 keyboard books. one shows you keyboard chords for each key, which is very helpful. the other book i got makes no sense, it shows scales for each chord but calls the scales for each key things like locrian, mixolydian (and the words above, ect.).

i just want to know a few scales that fit inside each chord.

when i look at tablature, they show keys in the tab that are in the keyboard chord chart book i have, but this dorian word and others like it are not mentioned in the tab ever. can anyone tell me what's the purpose of these strange words for these scales?

they should make a book of scales for each key chord the same way it's listed a keyboard chord chart. like Em, C7, A9...ect.

tarkus · April 30, 2007

They are Modes.

cnegrad · April 30, 2007

http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/modesandscales.htm

Enjoy!

Dave Horne · April 30, 2007

For some reason jazz players like to invoke the names of ancient Greek modes to label scales derived from our major scale.

A C major scale starting and ending on C would be called by some as Ionian. Those same notes but starting and ending on D would be called Dorian ... and it goes on and on up the scale. (In this case some would call the Dorian mode, D Dorian ... and so on.)

There are a few ways to easily remember the names of those ancient Greek modes - I Dig Pot Leave Me Alone Lester... or I Dig Playing Loud Music At Lunch ... for Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.

I think for some guys the use of ancient Greek modes is used to confuse the general public, it certainly confuses me. It's much easier for me to reference a major scale and then think of starting on scale degree 2 or 3 or 4, whatever instead of giving it the name of an ancient Greek mode ... but that's just me.

Gismo Recording · April 30, 2007

I don't know why they use Ionian and Aeolian instead of Major and Minor.

On another note, I've always thought "Mixing Lydia" would be a cool name for a jazz band.

Jessica T · April 30, 2007

"It's much easier for me to reference a major scale and then think of starting on scale degree 2 or 3 or 4, whatever instead of giving it the name of an ancient Greek mode ..."

Just a thought: one may use these names because, let's say that you started in C Major and then modulated to the dominant, which is G. If you said you were now using the "G scale" or "5 scale" that goes with that particular chord, how would one know if you wanted the regular G major scale, or if you wanted to get fancy and use the mixolydian scale instead? P. S. I like your pneumonics.

kanker. · April 30, 2007

A C major scale starting and ending on C would be called by some as Ionian. Those same notes but starting and ending on D would be called Dorian ... and it goes on and on up the scale. (In this case some would call the Dorian mode, D Dorian ... and so on.)

This is one of the places where I think that modes don't get a fair shake. When you play a C Ionian and then play a D dorian, you just hear a C scale starting on the 2nd degree. When you play a C Ionian and then play a C Dorian you hear a genuine shift in tonality. Even better, start with C Lydian, then C Ionian, then C Mixolydian, then C Dorian, C Aeolian, C Phrygian, and C Locrian. By taking this approach you hear very clearly the modal shifts. Then you can get yourself even more screwed up by throwing in modes of the melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major, etc...

Botch · April 30, 2007

On another note, I've always thought "Mixing Lydia" would be a cool name for a jazz band.

Arrrgh, beat me to it! I was gonna say that "Lydia Dorian" would be a Phryggin' great name for a jazz singer.

Gismo Recording · April 30, 2007

Then you can get yourself even more screwed up by throwing in modes of the melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major, etc...

Phrygian mode of the harmonic minor is a very cool scale.

Moon Zero Two · April 30, 2007

What does lydian, dorian etc mean?

Nothing if you don't use them right.

Davis Scratchy Voice>

Jazzwee · April 30, 2007

I like the names because for me it evokes a characteristic feel. Although I don't know the point of 'Ionian'. This to me is "modeless". After awhile, I start to imagine certain sounds just by use of the name.

Mark Schmieder · April 30, 2007

Ionian and Aeolian do not correspond strictly to our major and melodic minor (as opposed to harmonic minor) scales. I don't have the time while at work to write up a detailed explanation of modes, but there is an excellent scale theory and harmonic modes book from a Stanford professor that I intend to buy soon (he presented a symposium at AES in SF last fall). I'll try to find a URL and add it to this message later tonight.

Why the jazz reference? Modes were first described hundreds of years ago in classical literature. Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" is famous for being the first widely popular jazz album to make use of other modes.

In pop/rock music, modes come up sometimes as well. When I analysed U2's "Pride (in the Name of Love)", it seemed to me that it was in Mixolydian (this is from memory; my actual notes are at home).

Mark Schmieder · April 30, 2007

Just to clarify, the idea of modes being scales played from different starting notes using just the white keys on a piano, is nothing more than a convenience that classical musicians came up with for describing the modes to students in music theory classes.

The original modes themselves do not all come from the same culture or region, and do not use Western temperaments. This is why Ionian and Aeolian are unique vs. just differerent names for Major and Minor.

And most of the described modes originate from areas that were under the influence of the Greek Empire at its height. This is because the Greeks spread early harmonic theory to many other areas (though there is some evidence that the Greeks themselves may have borrowed or derived much of what they gave to others from sources further afield).

DafDuc · May 1, 2007

Jazzwee, Ionian mode vs. major key is probably more significant in classical music, where rules about the melodic line, pareticularly leading tones, are more important.

A Jarrett improv, or almost any major key folk song (or a well-done imitation) that strays beyond pentatonic, could be good examples of Ionian mode. Wild Mountain Thyme, Witchi-Tai-To, Shaker Song, etc.

delirium · May 1, 2007

I think for some guys the use of ancient Greek modes is used to confuse the general public, it certainly confuses me. It's much easier for me to reference a major scale and then think of starting on scale degree 2 or 3 or 4, whatever instead of giving it the name of an ancient Greek mode ... but that's just me.

not only you. Some people just like complicate simple things.

Dave Horne · May 1, 2007

they should make a book of scales for each key chord the same way it's listed a keyboard chord chart. like Em, C7, A9...ect.

Well, it's not quite that simple. Let's take that Em chord for example.

That chord occurs naturally as a iii chord in C major, a ii chord in D major, and a vi chord G major. You have to place most chords in some context, not always, but it's a good place to start.

Rather than consult a chord\scale book (does Abersold need any more money), wouldn't it make more sense to figure it out for yourself using some basic theory knowledge and .... your ears?

stepay · May 1, 2007

I've used many of those modes, but mostly I just play what sounds cool. What's the name for that? Coolian?

delirium · May 1, 2007

I've used many of those modes, but mostly I just play what sounds cool. What's the name for that? Coolian?

Coolian scale sounds the best.

I mean it would, if there were any scale...

b3_john · May 1, 2007

I think for some guys the use of ancient Greek modes is used to confuse the general public, it certainly confuses me. It's much easier for me to reference a major scale and then think of starting on scale degree 2 or 3 or 4, whatever instead of giving it the name of an ancient Greek mode ... but that's just me.

not only you. Some people just like complicate simple things.

Its the language of music theory (to complicate things, the vernacular).

Sure the Greek names are funky, but there's only a handful of them to learn and then you discuss the concepts with anyone else who has learned this, even over the internet.

My son started formal guitar lessons last night, I was thrilled to see the C major or Ionian scale was presented with whole steps/half steps in the very first lesson, with other modes to come in the near future. After being hinted at the Dorian starting on D, he asked what mode the same scale would be if he started on E.

Presented early on, this stuff is far from confusing. Its just not that difficult if you take a bit of time with it. IMO. YMMV.

John

delirium · May 1, 2007

My son started formal guitar lessons last night, I was thrilled to see the C major or Ionian scale was presented with whole steps/half steps in the very first lesson, with other modes to come in the near future. After being hinted at the Dorian starting on D, he asked what mode the same scale would be if he started on E. ;\)

btw, although the C major scale looks the easiest on the paper,

it's not the easiest one to actually play. Still many teachers starts lessons with it.

Jazzwee · May 1, 2007

C major scale is easiest to visualize however. So for theoretical music theory, looking only at white keys is a plus.

Jazzwee · May 1, 2007

Jazzwee, Ionian mode vs. major key is probably more significant in classical music, where rules about the melodic line, pareticularly leading tones, are more important.

A Jarrett improv, or almost any major key folk song (or a well-done imitation) that strays beyond pentatonic, could be good examples of Ionian mode. Wild Mountain Thyme, Witchi-Tai-To, Shaker Song, etc.

Please elaborate DafDuc. This is interesting. You mean there's more to the name?

stepay · May 1, 2007

I've used many of those modes, but mostly I just play what sounds cool. What's the name for that? Coolian?

Coolian scale sounds the best.
I mean it would, if there were any scale...

Well, there is a Coolian scale (or mode) now. I just invented it.

"Man, that keyboard solo was smokin'. What are you doing there?"

"Coolian mode."

"Can you teach me the Coolian mode?"

"No one can LEARN the Coolian mode. You either can just play it or you can't. 'scuse me. Gotta go be cool somewhere."

[note -- the above is just for giggles. I'm really not that arrogant or that good to talk like that.]

delirium · May 1, 2007

yeah, that keyboard solo was cool...

http://www.inkycircus.com/photos/uncategorized/chimp_smoking.jpg

DafDuc · May 1, 2007

Jazzwee, it's just how it's used. The modes, including the Ionian predated the major and minor keys. As common practice developed, modes were left behind (though they continued to be used in church music, and were "rediscovered" by later composers). And complex paradigms were established for how to use major and minor scales.

The difference can be subtle, but it's definitely there. Both the Ionian and the major scale contain the same notes, but they get used differently. Cadences are the best example. It was almost an absolute rule that a classical or baroque piece had to end with a perfect cadence. V-I, with the leading tone from scalestep <7> to scale step <1> observed in whichever voice had the <7>, and the final melody note also was a <1>. Folk songs had no such rules, though they often ended on <1>. So Wild Mountain Thyme, for example, ended <5> <6> <1> <1> <1>, with a plagal (IV-I) cadence.

It's probably not a real useful distinction for jazzers, who extend chords to at least the 7th if not beyond, and have little interest in sounding like Mozart. Because it IS the same set of notes, and they're not observing the classical conventions - hell, even classical composers have been ignoring them for 150+ years.

But play one of Jarrett's major key improvs for a classical theory wonk, and they'll tell you: Ionian mode. And all the reasons why it's modal rather than major.

Best,

Daf (still a few years from wonk status)

oscarr111111 · May 1, 2007

I always thought the modes were just the 'one modern approach' to harmony and music theory, now I'm studying classical theory I'm confusing myself a lot over them.

Can anyone recommend any good web-reads or books (that can be read away from an instrument.. not much time at the moment so most reading is done on lunch breaks) that will help me better understand classical harmony and theory.

Thanks.

b3_john · May 1, 2007

C major scale is easiest to visualize however. So for theoretical music theory, looking only at white keys is a plus.

In this case its not even white/black keys. Since he's being taught from the gate to read music (e.g. staff) in addition to tab, C major shows the notes without sharps/flats to begin with, so the "curveball" is the halfsteps between E/F and B/C.

Trust me, there are easier scales to teach on guitar, but taught correctly (on a staff), that's still the best one to start with. If you're going to play more than a handful of open chords on a guitar, you might as well get very familiar with the fretboard.