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No, im not a guitarist but I'd like your advice please!


Gary75

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I own a Hohner Clavinet D6 keyboard, which is essentially a 60 stringed guitar with keys. I have just purchased a Boss NS-2 which does a wonderful job of eliminating noise from my keyboard and wah pedal. I was wondering, is it normal to run your tube (Art Dual MP) preamp through the send and return of a noise gate or should it purely be seperate from any noise gating?

Not knowledgable on fx paths and what should and shouldnt be used in them so any help appreciated. Also, any difference on where I put the tube amp in the noise gate if it is the done thing?

 

Here I am with it before I oiled my wah! did'nt have a preamp and ran it straight to a SRM350 at the time.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk6MblS31ls

 

Thanks

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Not sure how you are using the Art pre...within the context of the keyboard.

 

The pre is meant for microphones...though you can just use it as some sort of "effects" device (not sure to what purpose, as it won't do much to enhance/improve a signal)

 

Can you explain your entire signal flow path from start to finish?

 

Oh...it's a bit odd to stick a pre amp into a send/return path...that's usually for reverbs and what not....

 

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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I promise not to use guitar sounds

 

:rawk:

 

My signal path at the moment is Clavinet > input on NS-2 >output to input of Art Dual MP > output to PA. Im using the send and return in/out side chain of NS-2 for the Crybaby Wah.

 

Saying that it is odd to want to route a tube preamp into the send return of the NS-2 tells me it's not the done thing.

 

It is signficantly quieter now, I just thought i could squeeze a little less noise out of the chain by gating the preamp. But I guess all tube audio equipment is designed to have some noise and noise cannot be eliminated from tube circuitry altogether.

 

Wait until I tell all the guys at The Keyboard Corner what nice people you all are over here!

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But I guess all tube audio equipment is designed to have some noise and noise cannot be eliminated from tube circuitry altogether.

 

Abjectly and completely incorrect. Inexpensive starved-plate designs like that ART unit are noisy. Good quality tube circuitry isn't "designed to be noisy" or even "designed to sound hairy".

 

Audiophiles don't invest thousands of dollars per channel into single-ended-triode amplifiers because they're noisy. They do so because they're clean and accurate...

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I still don't understand why you are using the Art pre in that chain...?

 

The output of the keyboard and the NS-2 should be line level and can go directly into the PA using a line inout.

 

I've never run keyboards/synths into a pre amp before hitting the PA. I plug them directly into the PA mixer using its line inputs.

 

 

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Im not trying to use it as an effect, i just thought that if i tried it through the noise gate it would quiten it down a bit. Clavinet is not line level. Thanks for your help everyone anyway.

 

Well if it's not line level...then are you saying it's like a guitar level signal...?

If yes...then you are using the ART pre amp as a DI .

OK....that's one reason.

Then just run it in line after the noise surpressor...rather then in the send/return loop.

 

 

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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It is signficantly quieter now, I just thought i could squeeze a little less noise out of the chain by gating the preamp. But I guess all tube audio equipment is designed to have some noise and noise cannot be eliminated from tube circuitry altogether.

 

No, tube equipment isn't designed to have any noise. Noise exists in solid state designs as well. Some tube designs are quiter than some solid state designs, & vice versa. It's not inherent in the design of either, but is a byproduct of lower end circuits. The ART tube circuits tend to be noisier than average by a good margin, so I would consider eliminating that particular link in your chain. There are also shielding retrofits which can curb a lot of the noise inherent in the Clavinet. The main culprit is that big single coil pickup, but I think the rest of the internal wiring is unshielded too. Guitar techs have figured out how to lower a lot of that kind of noise, through improved shielded wiring & lining the innards with copper foil, tied to ground. If the keyboard techs you work with don't know these shielding techniques, (and why would they unless they specifically work on Clavinets,) you might try taking it to a guitar repair tech & explain the problem. It's always best to eliminate noise at the source, rather than further down the line.

 

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser
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Thank you Miroslav and Scott for your replies. Yes Miro, it is guitar level signal and yes Im using the Art as a preamp. I would'nt plug a guitar straight into the PA, and it's the same with a clavinet. So as im not using a keyboard/guitar amp on stage, I am using the Art to boost the level before it hits the PA.

 

Once again thanks Miro and Scott for your advice.

 

Maybe one day I will be able to afford some tube designs that are'nt as noisy as the Art!

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Well, we were nice at one point, anyway...(sigh)

 

A tube preamp can be a warming influence on the sound of anything going through it. But double preamping anything is bound to introduce noise. A fuzz box is basically a preamp, and when you put one in front of an amp and turn it on, you invariably get more noise out of the amp into the speaker. The second preamp(in this case, the preamp on the PA channel you are going into) preamps both the signal and whatever noise in present coming out of the first preamp. For less noise overall, you might try using a simple high to low impedance transformer , which is a much quieter way to get your Clavinet into the PA.

Always remember that you�re unique. Just like everyone else.

 

 

 

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Maybe one day I will be able to afford some tube designs that aren't as noisy as the ART!

 

Yeah, the ART tube stuff has a bad reputation for noise in the pro audio world. You might look into something like this:

 

http://www.siegmundguitars.com/tubepedals.html

 

Or this:

 

http://www.steelguitarblackbox.com/page2/sgbbpage.html

 

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser
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Yeah, the ART tube stuff has a bad reputation for noise in the pro audio world.

 

I think that's a person-by-person experience.

Yeah...some of their gear has had problems...but I've owned the Pro MPA and Por VLA for 10 years...

...and I use the both along with other gear...

...no noise...no problems.

 

I actually like the Pro VLA a lot, as it's a very "easy" comp without too much color (unless you really slam it).

 

I don't use the Pro MPA as much as I use to since I have a few other pres to pick from...but on the occasions I do...I never notice "noise" coming out of it.

 

I think in this thread...the noise is coming mostly from the keyboard....

 

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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There are also shielding retrofits which can curb a lot of the noise inherent in the Clavinet. The main culprit is that big single coil pickup, but I think the rest of the internal wiring is unshielded too. Guitar techs have figured out how to lower a lot of that kind of noise, through improved shielded wiring & lining the innards with copper foil, tied to ground. If the keyboard techs you work with don't know these shielding techniques, (and why would they unless they specifically work on Clavinets,) you might try taking it to a guitar repair tech & explain the problem. It's always best to eliminate noise at the source, rather than further down the line.

 

+1 from a former D6 owner. The real solution, IMnsHO, would be for someone to design a retrofit noiseless (e.g. stacked) singlecoil PUP for clavs. Back to reality... :D The above is really good advice. Find a guitar tech who works on Strats, Teles, etc. that is used to shielding w/ copper foil. Eliminating as much of the noise at the source as you can is the best approach.

 

John (part time keyboardist)

GP sacred cow of the year: Jimmy Vaughan
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The real solution, IMnsHO, would be for someone to design a retrofit noiseless (e.g. stacked) singlecoil PUP for clavs. Back to reality...

 

May not be so unrealistic. There are a lot of people who wind custom pickups & I bet somebody would love the challenge of winding onto a bobbin that is about a foot long. Shouldn't be terribly difficult, but would probably require all handwork instead of a machine winder, given the odd size. Worth looking into. Maybe a call to Bill Lawrence.

 

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser
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Scott, that's what I was thinking as well. Someone had to wind the originals, how hard would it be to wind it halfway, stop and create a tap, then finish the second half of the winding the other direction.

 

Back to b3boy, the more I think about it, the more certain I am that I'd want an experienced guitar tech to do the shielding. You are right, it really is primarily a 60 string guitar -- more like an amplified harpsichord except WAY more funky and fun to play. I miss mine...

 

John

GP sacred cow of the year: Jimmy Vaughan
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