Ear training and songwriting

[revolead]

After five years of playing guitar and 6 prior to that of playing trumpet, it has occurred to me that I have two major fall backs with guitar: (1) Sometimes, I feel like I have no ears, and (2) related to the first, as a result, I have a hard time writing songs that don't sound that much different from something I've already heard/written.

 

I know at first, these would seem like paradoxes, especially if I am playing a song I've previously heard and then complaining that I can never figure out anything by ear. But truthfully, I feel like (it may not be true) my ears are the problem because of both.

 

Back when I played trumpet, I used to have a great ear. I could figure out almost any song, even if it wasn't written for that instrument. Well, I stopped playing that at about age 16 and switched to guitar, and ever since, it seems like I cannot figure out a song for the life of me. I rely on tab as a crutch, and the other day, I wanted to figure out "Time Takes Two" by Robert Cray and had to get some help from my neighbor, who knows many, many songs.

 

To make matters worse, I like to fool around writing classical music on Finale Notepad, and it ends up being cliched or boring or something is wrong that I hate, and suddenly, I scrap an entire project. I also think this is because my ears want to hear what they want to hear not what is being played (in ear training's case) or what might actually sound unique or cool.

 

1. Can someone help me?

2. Does songwriting, even with classical instruments, get easier over time?

3. How can I practice to change any of the above complaints?

[Griffinator]

Music theory, music theory, music theory, music theory, music theory.

 

If you know chord progressions and chordal relationships within a key, even on a rudimentary level, you're more apt to recognize cliched chord progressions and cliched melodic movements.

 

As an added bonus, the more you understand about these relationships, the more easily you can break out of the rut of writing riffs that sound good because they're well-worn paths...

 

Can't break the rules if you don't know the rules, what I always say...

 

And yes, learning relative pitch (which is remarkably easy - simple tune association made it happen for me) is a damned good start to your journey.

 

Now the scrapping projects thing? I did more than my fair share of it. I've probably written over 2,000 songs in my short life, but for all that, I've maybe found 6 or 7 of them that were worth keeping. You'll find, as you get more sophisticated with your writing, that stuff you thought "sounded cool" gets rather cheesy...

[Billster]

Your ears are really internal, not related to any instrument. What you need to do is develop your ability to recognize what your ears are telling you, not relying on finger patterns or visual cues. Having "good ears" means applying what you hear in your mind to the instrument, and not being guided by the instrument. Guitar players are notorious for being slaves to finger patterns and not using their internal sense of melody to guide their note choices.

 

Here's an exercise to strengthen your ability to hear intervals:

 

Play a note that sits comfortably in your vocal range, lets say it's a C.

 

Do not play, but sing a chosen interval. Fourths and fifths are usually easy starters. So play a C, then try to sing an F a fourth above.

 

While singing the F note, play it. How close were you? Surprised?

 

Doing this exercise and successfully singing an interval will develop your sense of relative pitch. When you have a grasp on that, you will be able to apply the cool melody you hear in your head to the notepad or instrument, instead of being guided by where your fingers easily fall.

 

Spending time with a metronome will similarly improve your innate sense of time, helping you to understand subdivisions and being able to find the groove or rhythmic structure of the melodies you want to hear.

 

[revolead]

Well, I took music theory at university, and it helped a lot. But I still have trouble. Should I just continue to more advanced music theory?

[Billster]

Yes, but you should do focused ear training exercises at the same time.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

...(1) Sometimes, I feel like I have no ears, and (2) related to the first, as a result, I have a hard time writing songs that don't sound that much different from something I've already heard/written.

 

..., I used to have a great ear. I could figure out almost any song, even if it wasn't written for that instrument. Well, I stopped playing that at about age 16 and switched to guitar, and ever since, it seems like I cannot figure out a song for the life of me....

...I like to fool around writing classical music on Finale Notepad, and it ends up being cliched or boring or something is wrong that I hate, and suddenly, I scrap an entire project. I also think this is because my ears want to hear what they want to hear not what is being played (in ear training's case) or what might actually sound unique or cool.

 

 

2. Does songwriting, even with classical instruments, get easier over time?

 

So here is a question critical to good songwiting (or writing of any sort...>) what do you have to say, that you need to tell me?

 

Because, if you don't have anything to say, it is not surprising that you're unable to say it.

 

 

Now, if you just want to say what everyone else is saying, in the same way that they say it.... gee.... again, you cannot be surprised that you're not connecting.

 

 

Good songwriting is simple.... you just have to do it over and over and over again, throw away the crap, and keep the good stuff. It is almost the same as all that practice that you put into learning how to play the instruments, as it takes practice to get good at writing.

 

Learning theory in class to pass a class is much different from applying it every day to solve musical problems. I highly recommend that you apply the theory that you know, or take more theory lessons. I stopped reading music in the 1960s, and I am so sorry that I did that. Whenever I work with guys who know theory, I am just knocked out at how quickly they solve problems. I know what I know because I listen and have learned songs since the 60s, so I've picked up on a lot of stuff. That is not the best way.

 

 

It is also possible that you're just not a writer. I work with symphony musicians who can play the hell out of their instruments but could never write a piece and could not jam to save their lives. But they are CRUSHING when they play their instument.

 

 

 

Bill

[revolead]

Learning theory in class to pass a class is much different from applying it every day to solve musical problems.

 

Completely true, but I never used that class to "pass" it. I loved that course simply because I enjoyed music. I took it specifically to help with songwriting.

 

It is also possible that you're just not a writer.

 

I doubt that is the case. I've written tons of music before, but as I said, I don't like a lot of it. Moreover than that, writing (without music) is the only thing I consider myself very good at. I won a national award in a contest for it, and I am a journalism major. Now, maybe they're completely different things, but I sort of associated them with each other. I guess on that note, I never like every single poem or story I write either.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Then I guess that it gets back down to 'so, whadaya got to say?'

 

I have written an awful lot in my life, and for a time I was writing tech manuals, which is real dull but requires that the instructions be clear and concise. I've written for papers and magazines and websites. I've written speeches and advertising. I've reviewed a lot of equipment. I'm even included in a textbook with compositions from George Bush, Ted Turner, and a bunch of other famous people... (no, I don't deserve to be in such august company, but so it goes...) You say that you studied journalism but you mention stories and poems.... I think that they are different disciplines. A good journalist may not be a good poet or story teller. A good songwriter has to be a good story teller, and somewhat a poet.

 

Another thing occurs to me... are you speaking with your own voice? I'm sure that when you won a national award, you wrote something that was meaningful to you. Are the subjects of your songs meaningful to you?

 

Bill

[Eric Iverson]

I find that doing things where I can't fall back on finger patterns, like singing or playing flute, helps!

 

Especially singing and trying to pick out harmonies. Not that I'll ever be a singer, but it's great ear training.

 

I agree that it's a drag when a guitarist asks "what key is it in?" and if you tell them A they just drag out their A blues pentatonic cliches, which sometimes don't even fit, if it's a heavy duty major feel where the major third is emphasized. One guy I had to tell, "play those licks if you want to, but play them at the 2nd fret, not the 5th!" "But you told me it was in A!" "I lied!"

 

Re: writing. I've done some technical writing, and I agree it's boring but good discipline. As a translator I have to do different styles, and I think it's similar to music in that way.

 

Writing music? I've written a few songs, but not lately. It's fun to do, but like anything else you have to do it a lot to get good at it - unless you're Sir Paul McCartney! Even he got better at it over time!

[Billster]

but like anything else you have to do it a lot to get good at it - unless you're Sir Paul McCartney! Even he got better at it over time!

 

So Wings is better than the Beatles?

 

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread...

[Dr. Ellwood]

If you want to write, (I'm NOT a writer) but if you have someting to say but you want to really use a instrument that helps bring it all together for you...learn piano! Even the very early experience with piano will open up your head to the instrumental component of composition. If I wrote, guitar would never be my first choice in instruments, I would always go to the piano, even now if I want to figure out a song I use piano first I've always done this.

[Dr. Ellwood]

"I agree that it's a drag when a guitarist asks "what key is it in?" and if you tell them A they just drag out their A blues pentatonic cliches" LOL!! Ain't it the truth!!!

[revolead]

Ellwood, I already know a bit of piano. Cannot say I'm good or anything, but I can play a few chords and scales.

 

Bill, I guess the wanting to say something does make somewhat of a difference, for me, anyway. If I sit down to write a song just to write a song. I turn out crap. The best tunes I've written have usually been a response to a significant part of my life or a significant person. Good advice.

 

You say that you studied journalism but you mention stories and poems.... I think that they are different disciplines.

 

I should mention, just since you brought it up, that, yes, I agree they are different disciplines, but I'm good at both. I don't like to brag about things, but writing is the one thing I really don't mind bragging about. I don't know why, but it was always very natural for me, from tech manuals to poetry to epics to novels. If I ever write a bad story, it's usually a lack of a focus, like when I wrote a crappy article in the paper when I didn't get to pick a topic. You can only be so interesting covering a coast guard change-of-command story. And you can appreciate that too, since it was the good ol' Pittsburgh Trib. Dang, I hate that paper now.

[Hardtail]

Some things I do to try to improve the ear:

 

1. Learn tunes by ear

 

Yes.. it can be tough like you say but stick with it. Get something to slow the tune down so that you can hear most of the notes.

 

Learning harmony parts can be a bit tricky but just try to concentrate on one note at a time... then on intervals of 2 notes and so on. This is something that really takes a lot of work for me so I'm no expert. It took me awhile this morning to realize that Johnny Winter was playing a C9 in a tune of his I'm trying to learn. When I figured it out, I said... D'oh... that should be one of the first chords I try by default in a blues tune.

 

Don't be too snobby to learn the "easy tunes". I learned Billy Joel's "Still Rock and Roll to Me" some months back because my son knows all the words and I wanted him to sing while I play. At first I thought... this is kind of a gay song but after messing around with it, I realized that it wasn't so bad after all. So again... try out the easy tunes.

 

2. Practice your scales and arpeggios

 

Start with the major scales. Try to play all modes of a key.

 

Do the pentatonic scales... not just the one position that we all know and love (and others listening dread). Play all the positions. You'll see that the pentatonic scales are subsets of the major scale modes.

 

Work with arpeggios: Start with the basic triads: maj, min, dim, aug... then work out 7ths.. 9ths... various altered chords... This is something I'm still working out.

 

There's also the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales. I personally work with these sparingly simply because most of the tunes I work on don't use them (but that could change later).

 

*IT'S IMPORTANT TO DO 1 and 2 TOGETHER AND NOT SEPARATELY*

 

Doing scales all day is boring... learn some tunes by ear and see/hear/feel what key these guys are in. When the solos hit, 9 times out of 10, you'll be able to mimic the solo somewhat because you'll be able to tell what "pattern" the guy is doing his thing in.

 

*This all takes practice and time... it doesn't come right away.. I certainly have much, much more work to do but I'm getting results so far*.

 

3. Listen to lots of music

 

You probably already do this but I'll mention it anyway.

 

One thing I love to do is listen to my music in the car since I have an hour drive each way to/from work. Sometimes I just listen because the music's great and sometimes I try to figure out mentally what the musicians are doing. Either way, "listening" to music while not having the guitar handy has some benefits.

 

Don't just listen to the guitar though... listen to everything. How do the drums accentuate a certain guitar chord progression? How does the bass keep the fullness of a song while the guitarist is wanking away on a solo? etc.. etc... etc. Listen to it... learn from it... love it!

 

4. Improvise

 

Get some jam tracks (we have plenty here) and put one on and just rip! This isn't something I've done a lot of lately because I'm concentrating on #1 more but it is important. Try to use the stuff you've learned from #1 and #2 and make it sound CORRECT against a jam track.

 

I certainly don't know everything but these are some of the things I do right now.

 

My one weakness (of many) that I have is I really have to work harder at doing/learning harmony stuff. I really have no plan of attack for that except to just learn more tunes by ear that have interesting harmony/chord work. Eventually, I'll probably work through a jazz fake book I have a little and just chop away at the chord charts.

 

[Griffinator]

but like anything else you have to do it a lot to get good at it - unless you're Sir Paul McCartney! Even he got better at it over time!

 

So Wings is better than the Beatles?

 

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread...

 

Comparative analogy: Kobe got better with age - but are the Lakers better now than when they had Shaq et al?

[Griffinator]

I agree that it's a drag when a guitarist asks "what key is it in?" and if you tell them A they just drag out their A blues pentatonic cliches, which sometimes don't even fit, if it's a heavy duty major feel where the major third is emphasized. One guy I had to tell, "play those licks if you want to, but play them at the 2nd fret, not the 5th!" "But you told me it was in A!" "I lied!"

 

Relative scales, man, it's so much easier to communicate to a guitarist who works on pentatonics and blues scales exclusively when you understand relative scales...

 

Example: Long time ago, I wrote this cute little 4-chorder with some nice pseudo-classical (well, more like Michael Schenker-esque ) fills. It was in D harmonic minor. A buddy of mine started trying to jam on top of it, to no avail. He was like "What key is it in?" I said "D minor". He started trying to play in D blues. No worky. I thought about it a sec. Wait! C# = Db! Db = blued note in G blues! Quick run-through of G-Blues - yep, all the other scale tones fit in to D minor. I told him to try G Blues. Blammo, he was wailing away, and even more amazed that it fit beautifully.

 

This is the advantage of being automatic with scale relativity...

 

It also makes for songs that modulate effortlessly, to the point of chromaticism... which, in turn, makes you like your songs more, because they don't sound tired or cliched...

[Hardtail]

Oh another thing... here's a book that I use:

http://www.amazon.com/Bays-Complete-Guitar-Improvisation-Mb93278/dp/0871666634/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2000112-4658467?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175811293&sr=8-1

 

I use it as a reference.. not as a beginning to end textbook.

 

For example, right now, I really don't much with a diminished scale but the material is all there if/when I do incorporate it more into my playing.

 

[Eric VB]

Well you've gotten excellent advice so far. You don't know how lucky you are, especially getting the expert advice from the Bills. They both have impressive backgrounds in their own way.

 

To break it down, for songwriting you first have to have something unique to say (as Bill said). An idea or title can be the creative kernel that sprouts into a full song or composition. You have to remain true to yourself, writing based on your own life experience, or else your audience will be able to tell. (Like the Coast Guard thing.)

 

Ear training is an internal thing (as the other Bill said). If you could play anything under the sun on your trumpet but not on guitar it means you're having difficulty with the instrument interface (on guitar). You can hear the interval but it doesn't translate to where to fret which string on the guitar. So maybe spend some time learning the fretboard (where each note is) so you can use your theory training instead of having to rely on tabs. [And if your ear needs a little refresher, follow Bill's advice.]

 

It doesn't matter which instruments you arrange for, to a large degree. A minor triad is always going to sound different from a major triad, whether you've arranged for strings or brass or rock power trio or whatever. Popular music tends to favor more vertical harmonies (chords) whereas classical is more contrapuntal (counterpoint), so from that aspect it can be hard for someone who only has a pop background to arrange for strings. (The Beatles had George Martin; Led Zeppelin had their own keyboard/bassist John Paul Jones, who also arranged for numerous others.) When you get the notes down and it starts sounding good then we can talk about the subtle texture differences of oboe on top of flute versus flute over violin.

 

For a visual reference, think of composing a musical piece as creating a painting. It's not realistic to think that the first few paintings anyone makes are going to be masterpieces. It's a learning process. Even a good artist will make 100 or so sketches or studies before committing to oil and canvas. So keep at it, be patient, and see what happens.

[Squ]

http://www.seventhstring.com/ !

[Eric VB]

Oh, another thing about classical music. Go to your local university library and check out the scores for whatever you fancy. You won't get any ear training practice out of it, but you'll be able to see exactly how the masters did it.

[Strategery]

I'm not qualified in this area other than, I know what I like to hear.

I do like to do what someone here mentioned, and figure it out in my head first...even hum the part I'm looking for then try to transpose it to the fret board.

 

This reminds me of when QUEEN first came out.

GEEZ, they had something to say vocally and musically.

 

The guitar work on some of their songs just blow me away.

 

Damn good advice here. Thanks from me too!

 

Randy

 

[miroslav]

... I have a hard time writing songs that don't sound that much different from something I've already heard/written.

 

 

Hey...90% of all Rock or Pop or Blues or R&R or Country sounds the same at the core.

 

What really sets the songs appart is the arrangement.

[MILLO]

Yes, but you should do focused ear training exercises at the same time.

 

I would say: before you take your next university music-theory course, do ear training on your own for a semester, then when you are taking your next theory course, make sure you take an ear-training course AS WELL. While you're doing ear training on your own, make sure you SING whatever you're studying at the moment.

[MILLO]

... I have a hard time writing songs that don't sound that much different from something I've already heard/written.

 

 

Hey...90% of all Rock or Pop or Blues or R&R or Country sounds the same at the core.

 

What really sets the songs apart is the arrangement.

 

And that was something else I was going to say! LOL! Yeah, make sure your hooks are distinguishable. Blues and Country, since they're strongly folklore-based, are possibly the most formulaic.

[revolead]

Yes, but you should do focused ear training exercises at the same time.

 

I would say: before you take your next university music-theory course, do ear training on your own for a semester, then when you are taking your next theory course, make sure you take an ear-training course AS WELL. While you're doing ear training on your own, make sure you SING whatever you're studying at the moment.

I'm graduating in a month, so I won't be taking any other university courses.