Late Legato?

[Graham56]

Hi

 

Do you ever change the timing of your notes when playing legato? Let me explain what I mean...

 

I play in a covers band. And when we crank out the louder 'rock-style' numbers I play a fairly simple 'root-five' style with fingers.

 

We have two vocalists (sometimes one plays harmonica), one guitar, drums and me. So the mid-range 'honk' of my P-Bass (with La Bella flats) has plenty of space to fill...

 

Something I've noticed is that when I play legato, say in a smoother 4-to-the-bar walking style, it sometimes sounds as if I'm playing late. I've studied some recordings of our rehearsals, and I think there are two things happening.

 

One is that yes, I sometimes do slip (unintentionally) behind the beat a little when playing legato. I think I am concentrating so much on that relaxed feel and smooth, seamless note transitions that that I actually 'relax' just a little too much!

 

But there is also something else. In some cases, even when I pluck the string perfectly on the beat, there seems to be an aural perception of lateness. When we're playing something smooth ('Moondance' for example), I have quite a lot of sonic space while the guitarist comps very light rootless chords. It seems that my note becomes more obvious once the sound from the kick drum dies down, even if my initial pluck was on time. Which can sound (to me, anyway) as if I'm playing behind the beat.

 

Is this something that is common?

 

If you guys are playing a smooth legato line in a sparse lineup do you ever bring the initial pluck slightly before the beat? I'm not talking about trying to get a driving feel or any of the other reasons for deliberately shifting when you play, but rather having to compensate for the way notes are perceived by a listener.

 

It may be just that my ears are just not properly attuned to this style of playing. None of the other band members have complained anyway...

 

Cheers

 

Graham

 

[Mike Chini]

A couple of things I can think of. When playing with flats, there is usually a very quick increase in volume AFTER the note is plucked after which the note fades. Duck Dunn always seemed to be very slightly late on the beats (IMO) but that's part of what gave him his sound. I think part of this just has to do with the nature of flats. I think playing in a louder setting (band situation) will only exacerbate this effect.

 

The only thing I can think of that will mitigate this to some degree would be a compressor. Compressors will reduce some of the 'flat' bounce by squashing the vloume levels a small bit.

 

I know you mention not altering playing technique but I'd also look at this problem as inspiration to improve your ability to play in and out of the beat. You can practice at home by clapping to a metronome at a very slow tempo (eventually building up speed), while trying to JUST barely catch the before and after of the click.

 

Hope this helps!

[Graham56]

Thanks Mike,

 

I hadn't really noticed the volume swell until I studied our recordings (I wasn't hearing it when I was playing). And I didn't realise this was a characteristic of flats.

 

At the moment I don't use compression. It may sound stupid, but I want to work on finger control, without relying on (or fighting against) a compressor.

 

I reckon your suggestion of concentrating on playing in and out of the beat has more long-term value...!

 

For me the difficulty is playing ahead of the beat while still trying to get a relaxed 'laid-back' walking line.

 

Cheers

 

Graham

 

PS: Does this mean if anyone complains that I am playing late, I can quote Duck Dunn as an inspiration!??

 

 

[Eric VB]

I played tuba in high school. Tubas sat at the back of the band and the concert tubas pointed up at the ceiling instead of out towards the audience. This meant the sound had to go up first and then reflect off a special reflector before the audience heard it. At the same time, the sound from the trumpets was going straight from the trumpets to the audience. So the tubas always sounded late, even though we played our notes at exactly the same time as the trumpets. (French horn has the same problem since it points backwards.)

 

The fix was to have the tubas play slightly ahead of the beat. It doesn't take that long to get used to it, but it may not be easy to do while also trying to be relaxed. It's all about anticipation.

 

Try playing slightly ahead of the beat. If your attacks still come through everyone will think you're rushing. If not, if you just have a "delayed attack", everything should be fine.

 

It seems counter intuitive to me that staccato isn't a problem but legato is. A more common problem IMO is that when playing legato there is a tendency to hold notes too long and not be prepared to change notes on time. Especially when "relaxed" becomes "lazy". If you have absolutely zero time between notes then yes you can stretch them all the way until they touch. Otherwise, you have to know when to start your transitions.

 

And yes, in a band it's neat when your bass attacks overlap precisely with the kick drum for one big, powerful attack. It's like a drum/percussion ensemble (like Kodo drummers) when everyone strikes their drum at exactly the same time. [Then of course there's that whole pocket thing to consider ...]

[Mike Chini]

Just a bit OT, but this reminds me of THE tightest live performance I ever saw. It was Will Lee playing with the Hiram Bullock band at Manny's Car Wash in NYC. I forget who was on drums, but MAN they were so tight it was unbelieveable. Really great stuff.

[Rocky McDougall]

A few months ago, Moe Monsarrant explained that in Western Swing dance music, it is very important to play slightly behind the beat. When the bass plays behind the beat, everyone dances. When you play ahead of the beat, everyone sits down.

Rocky