How do YOU come up with melodies?

[Gruuve]

Hey folks:

 

I'm planning to concentrate on melody playing for a while...that and fretless seem to go so well together IMHO.

 

So...how do YOU go about writing a melody? Do you start with an interesting chord progression, then technically work out what notes flow well and perhaps connect the chords well (somewhat similar to how you would do a walking bass line). Or do you just listen to the chord progression until a melody pops into your head?

 

Or do you start with the melody itself, and then fit a chord progression to that? Does the melody just pop into your head, or do you sit down and work out an interesting melody based on a known scale or a new scale you've decided to explore?

 

Or do you sit down with perhaps an existing song, and dissect it in terms of how the chord progression and melody interact, then go apply the same motif to a different chord progression and melody?

 

When I say "melody", I'm thinking of what would most resemble a vocal melody played on bass moreso than a bass solo or a walking bass line. I figure if I want to a make a fretless "sing", then it ought to be a very vocal-like melody, eh?

 

What usually seems to work for me is to start with a chord progression that I like, then let a melody just pop into my head. Sometimes that happens immediately, sometimes it takes a while, sometimes it just doesn't come. So, I'm trying to figure how I can help melodies come to me more easily. So, what do you use to spur your creativity in this regard?

 

Dave

 

[Big Red 67]

Da da da... duh da da da. Now apply your choice of notes and rhythm. Not being flip.

[jeremy c]

For composition, I start with the chord progression first. Then I sing.

 

When I'm soloing, I'm singing on my instrument. I could sing along with my voice if I wanted to.

 

After I'm done, I could probably sing what I just played. And I could probably sing ahead of time what I was going to play if we could use some gadget which would stop time and space momentarily.

[Davo-London]

Melodies come to my head following a stimulus such as a rhythm a chord sequence, but I find them hard to force. Inspiration is funny like that.

 

Davo

[alexclaber]

When songwriting I used to always record the bassline, chord changes etc first, and then do a few passes of improvising a vocal melody whilst recording. Then I'd write the lyrics to roughly fit than phrasing and based on that tie down the last details of the vocal melody.

 

I seem to be managing to work more directly nowadays, so I'll come up with the bassline/riffs to a song and then rather than record it and layer up chords etc I work the arrangement of the bassline out fairly thoroughly, imagining the rest of the song in my head, and then make up a melody that fits with it, and then write lyrics to roughly fit the melody and then tweak the two to get the end result.

 

Often before the lyrics/melody are completely sorted I'll take the instrumental side of the music - often just the bassline I've written - and we'll jam on it and usually that will help shape the finished product through the things my bandmates bring in. For instance on a recent song which goes through quite a lot of different feels I'd been struggling with making it feel coherent. When we jammed it my drummer twisted the whole thing into a fully swung hiphop feel and it's transformed how the song works!

 

Alex

[Phil W]

In the moment using mind alone, or mind+voice mind+bass or mind+bass+voice. Occasionally I'll use guitar or keyboard. I do it mostly improvising - I should write it down more but I like the immediacy of creating melodies in the moment in response to what I hear.

[...]

When I write about half of it winds up coming from jammy time and the other half is stuff that just pops into my head (either in a dream or just pow! there it is).

 

99% of the time when I write I do it on guitar. When I'm playing the guitar part I already know in my head what's going to work as the bassline - it's just a matter of recording the idea afterwards.

[UTS-D]

For melodies, I listen to the birds outside and try to reproduce their songs on my bass and then the manipulation starts from there.

 

For riffs, I listen to more mechanically driven objects.

[Quinn]

I haven't been writing my own songs much lately, but like everyone else here, I often have to come up with parts to tunes that someone else has written.

 

Although I approach bass from the traditional rhythm section role, I have a fairly melodic style. I usually listen to the harmony and try to hear something in my head and/or sing something (this happens fairly automatically), then I find it on the bass.

 

Also, listening to bassists with melodic styles seems to help when I get stuck. Some of my favorites include Andy Rourke (The Smiths), Bruce Thomas (The Attractions), Mike Mills (REM) and Robbie Shakespeare.

[jeremy c]

For melodies, I listen to the birds outside and try to reproduce their songs on my bass and then the manipulation starts from there.

 

For riffs, I listen to more mechanically driven objects.

 

You might want to study the music of Oliver Messiaen. Read his bio here.

 

I'll quote one paragraph:

Messiaen had a deep love of birdsong, and spent much time in the wild making extensive transcriptions, many of which would surface in his works, most notably in an arresting orchestral passage in Chronochromie (1960) and the monumental Catalogue d'oiseaux (Catalog of the Birds) (1958) for solo piano.[/Quote]

 

I love his music and played the unaccompanied clarinet movement of his Quartet for the End of Time at my senior recital.

 

And then we also have the composer, Iannis Xenakis, who wrote music

basing pieces on computer programs and complex mathematical equations. This approach resulted in highly theoretical, systematic music characterized by intricately calculated rhythms, dense and often explosive textural fields, extended timbral effects, and "clouds" of sound that contain countless "particles."[/Quote]. Read about him on this page.

 

Maybe you have something in common with these geniuses of 20th century music.

 

 

[UTS-D]

Maybe you have something in common with these geniuses of 20th century music.

 

As much as that would be completely awesome, I kinda doubt that, but it would be nice.

[Gruuve]

Great posts! So, seems like a lot of folks simply start with a chord progression. I think that's the track that will probably work best for me at this point as well. Melodies just pop into my head sometimes, but they are usually gone by the time I could actually do anything with those fleeting melodies. Starting from a chord progression is a little more structured, and I've got an easy way to experiment with that (type some chord symbols into Band-in-a-Box and click "Play"). Once I find a chord progression I like, then I'll just listen to it until a melody pops into my head.

 

If I were writing groove-oriented music, I'd generally either start with a groovy bassline, or with a chord progression. I'm after doing higher-register melodies at this point, but starting with a chord progression is a good link to the way I normally work on stuff like this, so that should probably be my default.

 

Cool.

 

Dave

 

[Eric VB]

Alex uses the word that to me is the difference between playing melodically and playing a melody: phrasing. Paraphrasing UTS-D, melodies are not mechanical in nature. When we speak, we don't drone on and on; we pause periodically to take a breath or let a thought or emotion sink in. That's what a good melody should do, too. For me, it's all in the phrasing.

 

Melody doesn't often find itself on bass instruments: tuba, bassoon, bass clarinet, so on and so forth ... and of course bass. Like Quinn says, bassists are often concerned with everything else but melody.

 

When you step over into the world of solo bass, though, melody becomes a very important part of your bass vocabulary. In this recent thread Jeremy and others list some prominent solo bass players. I admit I've only had a chance to listen to Steve Lawson's clips thus far; I think he has a good sense of melody but doesn't beat you over the head with it. (I really need to listen to all the other great players too! )

 

Inspiration for melody on bass doesn't have to come from other bassists, though. You can listen to any melody and apply it to bass. I believe Franz Schubert was well known for his melodies.

 

In an ensemble, though, you have to know how to work a bass melody into the mix. Barry White comes to mind as an example.

 

Like so many have said, voice is ofte the instrument of choice when writing melodies. It doesn't have to be. Like Phil says, you can compose melodies in absolute silence in your head. For me voice is often the intermediate between what's in my head and whatever instrument I'm trying to play.

 

It is liberating to be able to go straight from your mind to your instrument. Like touch typing, where you don't have to think where each letter is under your fingers anymore, and you can just think in terms of words and sentences. Concentrating too much on chords and scales and what not can get in the way sometimes. It's amazing what can happen when you just give your fingers free reign to do what they will, to let them speak on their own.

 

Just like songwriting in general it's possible to go melody->chords or chords->melody. There's no wrong or right way, and many people do both.

 

Inspiration can come from anywhere. Natural sounds, such as those birds make. Listening to a symphony orchestra. It sounds odd, but I actually get ideas from walking around the big warehouse store. There's a hum from the HVAC that sets the key/tonic, and the various other sounds from equipment and people can suggest a rhythm or even a melody.

[Phil W]

I took a clinic with saxophonist Dave Liebman where we discussed similar things (alog with many others). If you ever get to hear Dave, take the chance as he is a very funny, wise and engaging speaker.

Dave emphasised the different ways of phrasing a melody - exemplifying playing ahead of or behind the beat and varying that through a phrase; playing with dynamics within a line; sonic/timbre variance and use of vibrato etc.

As bassists, some of us get two hung up on a couple of things which inhibit our melodic playing. Firstly we tend to emphasise the root. Secondly we tend to play each phrase concentrating on creating even expression across the phrase in terms of dynamics, timbre, rhythmic feeling, vibrato etc. A great melody player will endeavour to vary the expression in terms of timbre/time/vibrato/dynamics within the phrase. We need to practice in relation to this variance within the line.

Additionally we should be creative in our use of space, try not to emphasise the root and begin melodic lines in other places than the first beat of the bar.

I listen to a lot of different melodies for inspiration (yes - it's great to listen to and enjoy wonderful bass melodicists like Jaco, Scott LaFaro and Steve Lawson but I honestly learn as much if not more listening to Japanese Shakuhachi music, classical Indian music, Classical/orchestral music Frank Sinatra, Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter, Carlos Santana and BB King.

[Phil W]

http://www.lamusicacademy.com/popup_gallery/clinics/images/clinics32.jpg

 

Here's a review of the Dave Liebman clinic.

[Quinn]

Inspiration for melody on bass doesn't have to come from other bassists, though. You can listen to any melody and apply it to bass.

 

Absolutely right and after I posted, it occurred to me that I should have mentioned that. After I listen to Bird or any other great saxophonist, I can't help but hear melodies. Ditto with Bach and many others.

[Steve Lawson]

I listen to a lot of different melodies for inspiration (yes - it's great to listen to and enjoy wonderful bass melodicists like Jaco, Scott LaFaro and Steve Lawson but I honestly learn as much if not more listening to Japanese Shakuhachi music, classical Indian music, Classical/orchestral music Frank Sinatra, Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter, Carlos Santana and BB King.

 

Thanks for the association Phil..!! But, as you say, if we're just talking 'great melody players/writers', there aren't that many bassists in the top list, and those bassists that are learnt by listening to non-bassists... Your list there is pretty fantastic - Sinatra is a big favourite of mine for phrasing, as is Miles. My other favourites are Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, Robben Ford, Jonatha Brooke, Maxwell, D'Angelo...

 

as far as bassists who play great melodies is concerned, my favourites would be Michael Manring, Trip Wamsley, Renaud Garcia-Fons, Edgar Meyer, Matthew Garrison, Jimmy Haslip, Red Mitchell, Andy Hamill...

 

It works back the other way too - keyboardists wanting to learn to kick bass really need to check out great bassists, not keyboard bassists (though we could all learn a thing or two about great basslines from Stevie Wonder or George Duke!)

 

cheers

 

Steve

www.stevelawson.net

[Phil W]

Stevie, George, Larry Young, Jimmy Smith and Joe Zawinul.

 

But they all learned their bass skills from playing with great bassists.

 

Great list of yours too, Steve but I'll have to google Jonatha Brooke and Andy Hamill.

 

 

You know, I should always namecheck my friend and teacher, Steve Billman, when talking about melodic bassplayers too - he did a neat clinic on melodic bassplaying one time. You can hear him here

http://www.liraproductions.com/Continuum_Music.html

 

I recommmend the track PM.

[Gruuve]

When you guys mention Frank Sinatra, I assume you're referring to his vocals, correct? I'll have to give old Frank a closer listen I guess...

 

Dave

 

[Phil W]

Yes, listen to his phrasing. Miles Davis was heavily influenced by the way Frank deliverd melodies -especially in his timing.

[tnb]

Melodies?

 

 

[Eric VB]

Another cat known for his phrasing is Louis Armstrong.

 

I went to a jazz clinic and even the drummer confessed that his drumming was influenced by listening to Louis play trumpet.

[Phil W]

Louis is amazing when it comes to phrasing - whether it comes to trumpet or singing. The whole development of modern American music owes a huge debt to him. I listen a lot to Louis' phrasing.

[Phil W]

I also have a book that transcribes Billie Holiday's choruses on a version of Georgia. To see that written down is mind expanding (as it is to listen to). She sings three choruses and phrases the lyrics differently melodically and rhythmically every time - but very naturally. She had a horn-like way of phrasing and was an immense talent.

[...]

Phrasing is such a huge part of playing (melodies and otherwise). It's one of the other things that non-musicians pick up on when something is "not quite right" but they don't know how to explain it. It's right up there with groove and pocket in that regard.

 

[Gruuve]

Just thought I'd note this...here's a process that has worked pretty well for me a number of times when I'm trying to come up with a melody (usually given a chord progression, or sometimes a riff, whatever).

 

1) Write some lyrics or pseudo-lyrics. They can just be non-sensical gibberish, it doesn't matter, they are "throw-away" items.

 

2) Sing or hum the pseudo-lyrics over the musical section in question until I get a feel for what works. Sometimes this is a few minutes...sometimes it takes multiple visits over multiple days. (I am pleased that it does seem to be getting shorter though.)

 

3) After I've got that pretty much figured, then find the notes and phrasing on the bass.

 

At some point, I'm hoping I can get good enough at this to eliminate the extra steps and just go straight to the bass for a melody. However, I think basing the melody on a vocal concept is a really good approach...I'd just like to be able to do it all in my head near instantaneously and immediately transfer that to bass. It'll come (or at least get closer) with practice...I hope!

 

Dave

 

[Eric VB]

Dave,

 

Have you tried looking at published/printed melodies, or transcribed some on your own?

 

In my mind, unless your name is Mariah Carey your vocal melodies are going to span a limited range. Which is fine because a 4-string bass typically has just under a 3-octave range.

 

Beyond that, unless your name is Bobby McFerrin your vocal melodies are going to use relatively small intervals, typically a 5th or less but almost always under an octave.

 

In a choral SATB group, the melody can be passed from section to section to give it a larger range. It's not that the sopranos and basses alternate word for word; more like the sopranos sing a phrase of melody, then the tenors, then altos, etc.

 

So for a melody on bass that "sings", I'd look to scales as a first step. Don't forget the less common harmonic and melodic scales. Use small intervals within a phrase. Feel free to use a large interval in between phrases. Confine the range of a phrase to roughly two and a half octaves.

 

One of the pitfalls of using scales is that they tend to limit creativity by forcing you to "color within the lines". So don't be afraid to throw in an accidental along the way or a modulation/key change. At the same time, try not to let the technical details get in the way of creativity.

 

In a lot of my stuff I use an instrument as a place-holder for a vocal melody while I work on lyrics. That is, I record an instrument playing the melody meant to be sung. Someone listening to these roughs made the comment that my melodies had too many repeated tones, like four A440s in a row. I think this is fairly common in vocal melodies but goes relatively undetected because the syllables keep changing, or the pitches are bent or slid into. When you use MIDI and all the notes are perfectly the same length, style, etc. as well as pitch, then I think it does sound less interesting. So don't be afraid to use repeated tones, but if you notice they are becoming monotonous try to change some other aspect of the notes.

 

 

I think it is hard at first to get out of the bass role mindset and into the melody role. We've associated our instrument with the bass role, so when we look down we see, hear and think things like "root/5". We need to become comfortable looking at our bass and seeing, hearing and thinking melodies and singing. It's all in our heads. Watch a violinist or cellist play an unaccompanied solo and try to cop their mindset instead.

 

 

Lastly, one of the advantages to playing a melody on an instrument is that it is capable of things the average human voice is not. When Bobby McFerrin sings live he takes advantage of a clever arrangement of a song such that he can alternate singing the bass and other accompaniment along with the melody. This is exactly how solo bass, guitar and piano do it, with the exception that these instruments can produce more than one tone simultaneously, e.g. sustain a bass note or chord while playing a melody on top of it.

 

Just be careful not to let technique triumph. It's easy to cross the line from "amazingly complex melody" to shredding. To paraphrase music-man from the thread on URB solos, some may find it entertaining to listen to the same two or three notes repeated over and over again in rapid fire, but that kind of thing gets old pretty quickly.

[Eric VB]

It also doen't hurt to try to come up with a melody using only your bass and nothing else. Give that a try.

 

Start with some easy, well-known melodies to put yourself in the right frame of mind: "Mary Had A Little Lamb", "This Old Man", "Greensleeves", "Amazing Grace", etc. Then start messing around and see what happens.

[Gruuve]

Hey Eric:

 

All valid and insightful thoughts (as would be expected from you). BUT, I'm purposefully deviating from using scales, etc., to come up with melodies. My hands want to go where they already know....and that's one of the things I want to break out of. I really like the idea of getting a melody (usually a vocal melody) in my head first, then letting my hands find it on the bass. That way, I circumvent my hands' tendency to try to go where they already know.

 

Dave

 

[King Kamehameha]

Louis is amazing when it comes to phrasing - whether it comes to trumpet or singing. The whole development of modern American music owes a huge debt to him. I listen a lot to Louis' phrasing.

 

AMAZING RHYMES WITH PHRASING. That's my contribution.