Basic acoustic guitar recording equipment.

[bloodsample]

Greetings fellow guitar players (I hopped over from the keyboard corner )

 

I play a bit of guitar (acoustic) and would like to get as cheap a setup possible to get passable recordings. By passable I mean that they don't sound horribly awful.

 

I have a relatively cheap but decent guitar (Seagul S6, locally produced). I have a decent condenser mic and an SM57. I have the recording software, small mixer and good enough sound card. I don't plan to upgrade any of these, just to add to them.

 

So my question to you is, what component would you say would be crucial to make a dramatic change on the quality of the recordings? Compressor, reverb, pre-amp (tube or not?) ? Or maybe just proper mic placement?

 

Let me stress that I'm not doing any professional recordings by any means. Just want to add decent acoustic guitar tracks to my recordings. So I'm looking for the cheapest solution and hopefully one that will give me the most dramatic effect.

 

So if there's only element of your recording chain (for acoustic guitars) that you just can't live without, please share.

 

Thanks for your help.

[miroslav]

The Seagull S6 is a decent sounding guitar (I have a 12-string)...so you are OK there.

 

The SM57 is NOT a condenser mic...it's a dynamic...and not a very good choice for acoustic guitar...IMO...and that is the first thing I would improve on.

You can get a "decent" condenser (various brands) for about $300...a good one for about $500-$600...a really good one for about $1000-$1200...and then from there, you get into some more serious pro-mic options.

 

I prefer a large diaphragm condenser...sometimes tube sometimes FET.

The important thing is mic placement, and somewhat, the room you are in.

If you get those right...you can make even a not-so-high-end acoustic guitar sound good (assuming you can play well enough).

 

After the mic...the pre amp is important...but you don't mention the type of mixer/pre you have. A good quality standalone preamp would be an improvement.

 

And when you say "good enough sound card"...what kind is that?

 

But equipment aside...you really need to decide what it is you want out of this.

On the one hand you seem to be convinced that you do not need/want to spend much on better gear and that you are not trying to get a pro sound...

...but then you are also interested on improving the sound and getting a dramatic effect.

 

Well...you just might have to fish or cut bait as they say.

 

You can only push the quality so far if you are determined to do it on the cheap...so you may have to adjust your expectation based on just how cheap you want to keep things.

 

 

[b3_john]

The SM57 is NOT a condenser mic...it's a dynamic...and not a very good choice for acoustic guitar...IMO...and that is the first thing I would improve on.

You can get a "decent" condenser (various brands) for about $300...a good one for about $500-$600...a really good one for about $1000-$1200...and then from there, you get into some more serious pro-mic options.

And after that they start to get expensive. :wink:

 

John

[Warthog]

My wife would kill me if I spent $1200 on a microphone! No need to spend that much unless you're a pro musician or just loaded. There are a number of excellent options for a few hundred dollars.

[miroslav]

There are a number of excellent options for a few hundred dollars.

 

Well...I wouldn't go so far as the say "excellent"...just that you do have lot's of options at various price points.

 

Like I said, it has to do with whatever realistic expectations one has...and then you need to get/use the gear that can deliver those expectations.

Even a true pro can only get so much quality out cheap gear...otherwise, the pro gear manufacturers would be out of business.

 

A hobbyists doesnt necessarily have go for the high-end pro gear...but if/when he left scratching his head as to the lack of quality in the finished product...

well, part may be technique...but yeah, the other part is the gear.

 

Cheaper gear tends to hit its limitation a lot sooner than even your basic technique will...IMO.

 

[Warthog]

"Excellent" is a subjective term. I think for him, "excellent" can be had for a few hundred dollars. For you, maybe not.

[rgordon83]

a word of warning. If you get an M-audio box to record via USB to your CPU be warned that it is not compatible with windows XP media center edition. I know some other brands also don't work with it. I found out the hard way. Now i have a Tascam us-122 and it seems to work fine...

[MILLO]

The Seagull S6 is a decent sounding guitar (I have a 12-string)...so you are OK there.

 

The SM57 is NOT a condenser mic...it's a dynamic...and not a very good choice for acoustic guitar...IMO...and that is the first thing I would improve on.

You can get a "decent" condenser (various brands) for about $300...a good one for about $500-$600...a really good one for about $1000-$1200...and then from there, you get into some more serious pro-mic options.

 

I prefer a large diaphragm condenser...sometimes tube sometimes FET.

The important thing is mic placement, and somewhat, the room you are in.

If you get those right...you can make even a not-so-high-end acoustic guitar sound good (assuming you can play well enough).

 

After the mic...the pre amp is important...but you don't mention the type of mixer/pre you have. A good quality standalone preamp would be an improvement.

 

And when you say "good enough sound card"...what kind is that?

 

 

Hey Miro: Do you have any opinions on Rode NT1A or Groove Tubes GT55? Any opinions would be appreciated!

[Rampdog]

Give this site a look.... http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/akgmicreview.htm

 

I use the AKG C1000 S and it works fine both through the putor and micked to the amp...

[A String]

If it's any help, this recording was done with a $5 computer microphone, pointed at my acoustic, and run directly into my sound card. I added a little bit of reverb.

 

Sounds a little rough, but if it's all you are looking for, quality wise, and you just need it for getting some ideas down, then the cost is only $5. You can't beat that.

 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=265626&songID=4990123

[miroslav]

"Excellent" is a subjective term. I think for him, "excellent" can be had for a few hundred dollars. For you, maybe not.

 

Fair enough...

 

When I sense that someone is looking for an obvious improvement...or as he put it, a "dramatic" effect/change to his current rig...

...it tells me that they really ARE interested in better sound quality and not just trying to capture it as-it-falls...you know, just for documenting purposes.

 

I think most of us really DO want the best...though obviously price is the moderating factor to what we all will eventually accept as "best"...or "excellent".

 

At some point...when you really focus too hard on keep things "cheap"...you will even start to convince yourself that spending any more would be a waste and that it's all hype...

but, eventually reality will help you adjust that perspective...

 

[A String]

I've misread the original post. Doh!

 

What he's asking for, is that one thing, that will yield the most noticeable difference in quality to his recordings, for the cheapest price.

 

In that case, a good mic should do the trick. It's one of those cases where, the more you spend, the better it will sound. (To a degree anyway. Remember that eventually, your recording "chain" will not have the ability to distinguish the difference between the med grade mics and the high grade mics. At this point, you would need to upgrade other aspects of the recording "chain").

 

[bloodsample]

Hey all,

 

Thanks for all the replies. Ok there seems to be confusion going around, let me clarify a bit.

 

First off, I guess it was subtle, but in my original post I wrote "I have a decent condenser mic and an SM57". Key word there is "and". I have studio projects C1 (condenser, I got it for free, so can't complain) AND an SM57 (dynamic). My sound card is ye 'ole audiophile 24/96 PCI. Mixer is a small 12 channel behringer. So now you understand that I'm a cheap hobbyist .

 

Ok now that we got that out of the way, let me restate that I do NOT plan on replacing any of the components I already have, just want to add to them.

 

I find that when I place the condenser pointing at the edge of the sound board (where it meets the neck) and the dynamic pointing at the neck itself, that the sound is too weak, even at max gain on the mixer. So maybe what I need is a good pre-amp, but I'm not sure. Maybe better mic placement? Maybe some other effects unit to add "realism"? This is the kind of basic advice I'm looking for.

 

I believe that a good sound engineer can make good recordings with minimal equipment, and that's kind of the type of advice I was expecting. Your traditional recording techniques along with minimal equipment. More brains than $$

 

And final clarification: By "passable" I really mean recordings that don't sound like they're done with a PC mic. So a recording with low noise and that sounds like an acoustic guitar is a minimum that I'd be satisfied with.

 

Thanks again for your help and time.

[miroslav]

At this point...forget about "realism effects"... :grin:

 

Oh...I missed the "and an SM57" thing in your original post.

 

Try placing the C1 behind the bridge...but down a bit lower and pointed up, so your hand is not between the mic and the sound hole.

That should give you more depth and body.

You can also try it dead-center of the sound hole...but again, a little below and pointing up.

 

The best way to find the "perfect" spot for a given mic is to have someone play the guitar...and you, with headphones on, move the mic around and listen for the best spot.

You can do this all by yourself...but it's a bit more fiddling since you can't play and move the mic at the same time.

You can even just use your ears and move them to where you think the mic should be...and listen (of course, while someone else is playing.)

 

 

As far as just adding to your present setup...well, again...I would go for a solid step up in a new mic.

But here's the thing....

When you get a better mic...that Behringer mixer and it's built in pres is going to suck donkey balls....youll then have to compliment the better mic with a better preamp.

Once you have both of those...you will find that to take full advantage of the better mic and better preamp...a better soundcard might be a good idea.

Then once you have that going...in order to keep on improving and/or to maintain the same level of signal quality...you really need to examine everything else too.

 

One important rule that I've always kept in my thoughts when setting up a rig is:

Your signal is only as good as the weakest link in its chain.

 

So...to take a $1000 mic and stick it through the Behringer...

...would be a wasteIMO.

 

No matter how you try to dodge it...if you make any dramatic improvement in one piece of gear...eventually, the other pieces will have to follow in order to preserve the improvement you got from the first.

 

So you have to always think in terms of the whole chainthe big picture.instead of focusing on just one pointone piece of gear

and expecting it will solve all your problems.

 

I think that if you just want to be a "mess around, havin' some fun hobbyist"...then let your wallet be your guide.

But if you start showing concern for "sound quality"...well, then you may have to dig into that wallet a bit deeper.

 

[Eric VB]

You can use a $10,000 mike and it will still sound hideous in an untreated 10x10x10 room. (Not that I've had the pleasure of using such a mike myself.)

 

You can spend $100,000 and build and outfit your own pro recording studio in your house. And spend months, years or more honing your engineering skills. Or you can spend a couple hundred bucks to use someone else's pro studio with a pro engineer running things.

 

Quality recording is rarely inexpensive. (I think this was Miro's point.)

 

If you want DIY using a DAW as a modern replacement for the "cassette boombox" recording technique, that can be done on the cheap. As Craig said, you can get that quality or better with a $5 microphone and bargain computer equipment.

 

But bloodsample is looking for something a bit better than what he's currently getting. At least Miro gives the guitar a thumbs up, but we don't know anything about the room. (Search/browse Ethan Winer's forum for a wealth of information about room acoustics and treatments.) As I am super cheap I use a large, irregularly-shaped room in my house; it's certainly better than the concrete walls and floor of my basement.

 

As I've read the original post he already has a condenser in addition to the SM57. His condenser is "decent", so according to Miro's guidelines it cost at least $300; otherwise, is it really any better than the SM57? I use an SM58 vocal mike and feel it is a huge step up from directly recording the piezo in my acoustic/electric. (Obviously I'm losing some high-end frequencies without a condenser.)

 

The next step of the chain is the preamp. None is mentioned, but a "small mixer" is. I'm guessing this is filling the preamp role and is possibly supplying phantom power to the condenser mike (if necessary). This is where I would be tempted to upgrade, not merely suppliment as bloodsample is wanting. In my experience there is a huge difference between a cheap preamp substitute and a real preamp. Even when using a less-than-optimal mike like the SM58. I'm assuming that a "small mixer" is also a cheap mixer, so although it may be convenient, it may also be an unnecessary source of noise. Ask or browse the "Use Your Ears" or "Project Studio" forums, archived or present, for advice on a suitable mike preamp for your price range.

 

From there the sound card does its thing. Since this is "good enough" and bloodsample isn't willing to upgrade it, I'll let it be.

 

As far as compression, this should be available in the preamp or the software. The advice I always read is to be careful not to use too much of this on the way in. If done in software at least you can adjust it after the fact, although I don't think you'll get quite the same signal-taming effect as hardware compression. The value-added comp on your preamp should be as good as any budget stand-alone comp, I'd think. The guys in the studios are using $10,000+ comps and you probably don't want to go there. In the end, though, I'd say you'd get more mileage out of playing with very clean technique over using compression.

 

When you start talking reverb, though, keep in mind that it's generally a bad idea to record reverb. Record a dry signal instead and either reamp through a hardware reverb or use software. Again, a studio has a $10,000+ hardware reverb; a budget reverb just won't sound as good.

 

As far as software versus hardware effects, the feedback I've read is that software isn't as good yet, at least according to engineers with good ears. But when you start talking about a budget reverb going through a "good enough" sound card, I'm guessing the playing field is a little more level. I have not actually tested this myself, or read about anyone that has.

 

In summary, then, I would recommend replacing the mixer with a mike pre and taking some steps to treat the room. Now, let's talk about your playback room and monitoring system ...

 

[You'd probably have gotten a wider variety of answers if you posted this on the EQ forums. Luckily, Miro hangs out both there and here.]

[Eric VB]

As far as just adding to your present setup...well, again...I would go for a solid step up in a new mic.

Just to be sure, I do agree with Miro here, even though that's a contradiction with my previous post. The signal chain starts with the mic; if it doesn't pick up a certain frequency nothing downstream from the mic will be able to compensate for that shortcoming. So yes, a good mic is critical.

 

My point was that if you like the sound of the SM57 -- don't laugh, I've read about pros that use them when the situation calls for it -- it's going to sound better through a quality pre than through a cheap mixer pre.

[miroslav]

Just to be clear...I'm a frugal guy, and I don't have all high-end gear in my studio.

I even have a couple SM57s and a few other inexpensive mics (along with some other inexpensive gear).

 

But...I also have some higher-end mics and some pretty decent rack gear.

 

It's important to know...to accept...that there are differences between low and high priced gear (and everything in-between).

I've fooled myself a few times thinking I could get away with the cheaper alternative...and most times I regretted it

though sometimes you can get great results with basic gear.

 

Until you really experience higher quality gear and are able to compare to the cheap stuff...it's not easy to know what you are missing.