WWW Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I have been using 2 JBL Eon 15's, but you may know that I am partial to the AccuGroove T112 cabinets. So I am looking for good stereo amps and powered mixers: Here is one idea: Mackie 808S (do you have any good ideas? Post them here... http://www.sweetwater.com/store/closeup/808S--Main Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73, D6 Clav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'm totally not a fan of powered mixers. As a general rule, they never give you enough amplifier to drive anything. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKeys Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Learjeff uses a yamaha EMX5000 I believe. http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D2527%252526CTID%25253D227800,00.html He has a pair of JBL 12" monitors for it. I sounds very good on stage and out front. I have only heard it at blues jams, which is another name for guitar player wanking loud but it cuts well. The organ lacks bottom but that would be the 12" instead of 15" speakers. Jimmy Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho NEW BAND CHECK THEM OUT www.steveowensandsummertime.com www.jimmyweaver.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 The organ lacks bottom but that would be the 12" instead of 15" speakers. I disagree. The difference between 12's and 15's in a full-range speaker application is not sufficient to explain a lack of bass - particularly not on JBL's. My JBL 8" studio monitors deliver an astonishing amount of bass - when they get enough power to drive them. That Yammy's advertised power is out of whack. They're quoting peaks of 500W/ch @ 4 Ohms (RMS is probably in the 225-250 range) and 325/ch @ 8 Ohms (RMS probably 130-160) Which leads me back to my original point... 130-160/ch isn't enough to drive a 12" woofer with any authority, hence the no bass problem... If he strapped a good stout power amp to that pair of speakers, something that actually delivered 3-500W nominal at 8 Ohms, he'd find plenty of bass. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Powered mixers and speakers work well for small PA apps and personal rigs. However, I prefer separate components for minimizing single point of failure issues, redistribution of weight and maximum power. The Mackie 808S is rated at 1200w (2 ohm), 600w (4 ohm) and 300w (8 ohm). These are probably peak ratings. Not sure abou the AccuGroove T112 but a single AccuGroove Tri112S is rated at 400w (8 ohm). With that, an 808s is already underpowered. It is better to use a power amp a few hundred watts over the power rating of the speakers. That probably means a dedicated power amp. Bill, what are the shortcomings of your current system? PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWW Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Looks to me like the 808S puts out 600 watts per channel. That should be plenbty to drive 2 AccuGroove T112's. I have always liked Mackie mixers, and I am sure their power is fine. I agree that many powered mixers can suck, but I want the flexibility and the "all in one" of a powered mixer to drive the AccuGroove T112's for my keyboards (for the band as a whole, we definitely need a 'proper' PA system). I really don't want to haul around a QSC or Crown amp, and ALSO a mixer, and have to wire them all up just for my keys.... The user reviews of the 808S seem uniformly very good (unlike the Soundcraft...) If you don't like the Mackie 808S, what would you all suggest? Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73, D6 Clav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 It is better to use a power amp a few hundred watts over the power rating of the speakers. That probably means a dedicated power amp. Yepper. Headroom = full frequency response and cleaner output. An undersized amplifier not only won't give you good performance, it can also destroy your speakers in a hell of a hurry. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Looks to me like the 808S puts out 600 watts per channel. That should be plenbty to drive 2 AccuGroove T112's. Bill, the 808S puts out 600w per side at 4 ohms. What is the power rating @ ohm of the AccuGroove T112? PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWW Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 T112L power rating = 400 watts RMS at 8 ohms Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73, D6 Clav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Well Bill, I'm afraid it just does not add up. The 808S is 100w under the power rating of the speakers. That is just plain wrong in the world of sound reinforcement. Imagine that amp putting out 300w which is more likely 240w at 8 ohm. The speaker wants 400w at a minimum. C'mon, hit me in the chest! The amp gives up those 240 watts, makes the speaker mad and it eventually distorts to the point of frying the tweeter or blowing the woofer. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Sorry guys, but those are peak ratings. You need to look a little deeper. From Mackie's manual: http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/ppm808m_ss-44f817ee0d98ec793423dc7405aec105.pdf 340/ch into 4 ohms continuous sine wave average (RATED POWER) 240/ch into 8 ohms Not plenty. Barely enough. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWW Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 I posted this inquiry because I trust the collective experience and expertise of you guys.Thank you for your help! So, can you recommend an alternative? Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73, D6 Clav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Wow, my guess of 240 watts was really close. My recommendation would be a 6 space rack, rackmount mixer and QSC PLX1804 power amp. This would weigh less than the 808S (36 lbs). Once pre-wired, it would no different from your current set-up. Just more powerful. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I posted this inquiry because I trust the collective experience and expertise of you guys.Thank you for your help! So, can you recommend an alternative? Sure. Get a small, unpowered mixer a la the Yamaha MG164 and a stout high-power amp a la the QSC RMX 2450 which delivers a true 450WPC 20-20Khz both channels driven RMS output. That puts you at about a grand, and gives you way more for your money than any powered mixer can. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 And again, the professor and I are pretty close to being on exactly the same page - the MG164 is a rackmount mixer, and I was thinking the QSC SS amp, where he was pointing to a QSC digital amp... Although.... For the configuration, QSC recommends the RMX 4050HD or the PLX 3602 as "optimum" - as in giving you sufficient headroom to insure no distortion and no speaker damage. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Griff, I was trying to keep the weight down and power up. After all, it is for a keyboard rig. Not sure about Bill's roadie situation. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey Bill Thought I'd throw in my two cents.........since you're over halfway there cost wise , why not go with the Acoustic Image SA slave.....at 3.5lbs. and 450 at 8ohms and 800 at 4....your power issue is covered. I would think the quality of the power and SOUND of the AI would be far superior to that Mackie thing....I've been on gigs where the chick singer has had those things...I wasn't too knocked out with the sound of it. This of course assuming you're still digging that Focus 2R...you'd still have your cool EQ and effects. I think the map on that guy is $799..........if you're not happy with it, perhaps you'd like to sell..... Dave 2005 NY Steinway D https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 If this helps... I run my two AccuGroove Tri 112L's with a QSC PLX1804 amp (600 wts/8 ohms per side), and a small Mackie DFX6 mixer for the preamps. Clean, colorless sound, and no problems so far, except I also wish there were less cables - since it's for keyboard only. Good quality cables also make a difference. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceNorman Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I'm using a Yamaha MG12/4FX mixer and a QSC 1450 power amp to drive a pair of JBL JXR112M floor wedges. It's all mounted and pre-wired in a small slant rack along with my Motif ES rack unit and a little CD player. Everything runs in stereo - with power to spare. There's no doubt it a heavy rig - but damn I'm in LOVE with the sound. The SpaceNorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Well there ya go! Looks like the Yammy + QSC combo is a winner... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWW Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Thank you all so much!. Since I already have the Acoustic Image Focus 2R amp (mono), I am going to go with the light weight alternative and get a an AI Focus SA, to act a as slave 2d channel, driven by the front end of the 2R. That is, if AI promises to me it will work. As you guys know, I dig the sound of AI's amps - and at Class D, they weigh very little.... Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73, D6 Clav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Darn.....and I thought I might have been able to get the deal of a lifetime on a Focus 2R.......seriously, I'm curious to see how this works for you.....I might try to go that route myself. Let me know. Dave 2005 NY Steinway D https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWW Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Really, Dave - Thank you. Until you brought it to my attention, I had no idea that the Focus 2R could go stereo by adding the SA. While I enjoy my 2 Eon 15's, the AC T112L's are much better cabs, and the AI heads are clearly superior to JBL's Eon power supplies. BTW, where would you go to get the SA? PS- Thank you to: Griff, SK, Prof. You steered me away from a mistake with the Mackie 808, (and corrected my misunderstanding about power capabilities, and power needs). If you hadn't spoken your mind, I would be back on eBay selling stuff. Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73, D6 Clav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 PS- Thank you to: Griff, SK, Prof. You steered me away from a mistake with the Mackie 808, (and corrected my misunderstanding about power capabilities, and power needs). If you hadn't spoken your mind, I would be back on eBay selling stuff. C'mon Bill, that is why we are here. To intervene, enlighten and redirect GAS. I hope that solution works out great. Don't go "Back to the Future". PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatoboy Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I've had good luck with my (older) Crown Powerbase 1 (205W per channel at 8 ohms) and a old pair of E/V 200sx's (two way 12"s). . . .I like 12" and espically E/V's for piano and keyboards. Very balanced sound with the E/V's with just the right balance (hi/lo)and ambience somehow! The wattage has always been enough for a stage sound on a large venue stage for me even with EGOMAN's guitar (and Bass) back in my previous life! I use this rig with a BBE362 (sometimes a Samson Dual 15 band EQ also) and an old ME120 Roland line mixer or a Rolls-Hex Mix rack mixer (very cool piece of gear btw only bummer is a mono lineout). That's my large venue amp rig in stereo! lb SP6, CP-50,YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, XK-3, CX-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 While few and far between, this beast sounds great and has never failed me on a gig http://www.retrosynth.com/~analoguediehard/tour/moog_synamp/moog_synamp_stock.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VLH Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Pardon my ignorance, but how do you get stereo out of the slave amp--don't you have to use the inputs in the Focus III 2R, output to the slave amp and separate Accugroove--in which case, aren't you going to get the same thing through each speaker? Wouldn't it make more sense to just get a second Focus III 2R and put it on top of a second Accugroove (since $$ never seems to be much of a concern). I'm not good at amps and don't really get how stereo works, so if someone can take the opportunity to enlighten me about slave amps and stereo in general while also responding to Bill, I for one would be a grateful boy. VLH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWW Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 You can implement a stereo system using the 2R, a Focus SA and the second T112L. With that set up, the two channels of the 2R would be independent stereo channels. (details of the setup are in the pdf Manual on the AI website.... There is a real cost savings in using the SA rather than a second 2R. Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73, D6 Clav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VLH Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Thanks, Bill; I am officially a grateful boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 blather blather blather All this is nonsense unless you tell us what the application is. What size venue? Is it for your mains or monitors or both? Griffinator, you're guessing and you're wrong. Size matters, especially for bass response. Google, do a bit of research, and do the math. Bass response is directly related to area (up to a point, but 15" is below that point). My system is not weak in bass, it's nice and firm. But it will not compete with a bass rig of 2x15 or 4x10. If you want that, you can use 15" cabs and the difference is significant. I A/B compared the two cases using the same Yamaha and the difference is quite obvious. BTW, I have never liked the sound I hear from the square powered mixers. I usually find I dislike the sound first and then look at the gear and see one of those Mackies or Carvers or Peaveys. The Yamaha EMX5000 isn't square, it's mixer shaped, and has a surprisingly good power section. Unfortunately, I don't think they make them any more; it's been 'upgraded' with a buch of stuff FOH would like but of no use to me, and price nearly doubled. I took off one 'cheek' plastic block, and set it on its side under my synth. It rocks. The Yamaha is very well matched with the JBL floor monitors. The Yamaha output is 375 Watts RMS per channel at 8 ohms, with ample peak headroom. The JBL's are rated at 250W continuous, 1000W peak. I use them on stage, without a feed to FOH, in small venues, and I can always get over the guitars even when they're ridiculously too loud (e.g., 110dB SPL on stage -- much over that and I leave to save my ears, not to mention the sound guy or MC will make them turn down). I know the levels because I've monitored them with a meter. So, tell us what you need to do. Also, keep in mind that you need 10 times the watts to be twice as loud (10 dB louder). If a 300 WPC / 8 ohm system isn't enough, a 600 WPC system is unlikely to do the job as it's only 3dB louder. Enough to notice, but not enough to make a difference unless you're nearly there already. If you really need more, you need a serious honking system, thousands of watts. In that case, you probably also need separate stage and mains. BTW, with the Mackie systems, it's also usually been the Mackie speakers too. It might be the speakers I don't like. I don't care for their powered ones either. They sound plastic to me. For the best sound, I'd go for powered cabinets like the EV SXa series (not cheap!) Powered cabinets are bi-amped, so the wattage goes to best effect and amplifiers are well matched to the speakers. I went with a powered mixer to simplify setup and keep the total cost under $1200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.