Live rock sound seems BOOMY :(

[JonathanD]

I have recently been to 5 concerts in the Rock genera. At each the bass was ridiculously loud as was the bass drum. Sometimes I couldn't hear the vocals, guitars, harmonica etc. These have been the "better" venues around like the vogue in Indy, the Blue bird in Bloomington, the Marriott in Indy.

I know this is a vast difference from the ear bleeding mids/highs of the 80's but is this he nor, or am I just in the worng places. Remember this is about loud rock music, not jazz or anything else.

[Bottomgottem]

I have only been to two indoor rock concerts that actually had decent mixes no matter where you stood. Both were in the Omni in Atlanta, Ga. They were Pink Floyd and Lynyrd Skynyrd; 1987.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Well, bear in mind that where you stand can make a huge difference to the sound.

 

If you want to hear the best mix possible, try and get as close to the mixing desk as you can.

[JonathanD]

The last 2 I moved around, these are bigger places holding maybe 1000(not sure maybe more) and 90% of places the bass was so loud it hurt my ears and I could not hear anything else.

 

[Rocky McDougall]

IMHO, If the Drums and Bass are too loud and they are not going thru the PA, there is not much a soundman can do but make the rest of the band louder (if possible) which would only make the entire band horrible. It has always been my contention that musicians on stage have no idea what the sound level is to the audience. Every band needs a person out in the audience to give signals to the band to help them set volume levels and balance out the total sound. Most of the time it is only a battle over who can be the dominant player.

Rocky

[JonathanD]

IMHO, If the Drums and Bass are too loud and they are not going thru the PA, there is not much a soundman can do but make the rest of the band louder (if possible) which would only make the entire band horrible. It has always been my contention that musicians on stage have no idea what the sound level is to the audience. Every band needs a person out in the audience to give signals to the band to help them set volume levels and balance out the total sound. Most of the time it is only a battle over who can be the dominant player.

Rocky

hey rocky, this is a venue where everything is going through the PA and the bass drum at some points was so loud I wanted to vomit(I wasn't drinking). There was no chance in hell I was hearing anything from the stage and I was as close as 3 feet at some points. The last band was Clutch, a band that has been on tour for about 14 years and has a sound guy.

 

To clarify, its more than just the bass and drums being loud, the bas sounded like butt. It is as if they boosted 100Hz and below by 12 dB or more. I could NEVER hear the bass players tone, it was always just whooooooom...whhoomwhomwhomwhoooooom.

 

Jonathan

[rumpelstiltskin.]

they must mix sound like you spell.

 

robb.

[jeremy c]

I've been to plenty of concerts like that.

Went to see Stevie Winwood and couldn't hear the organ!

The drums sounded great, though.

There was also a guy playing rhythm guitar and singing backup. I never heard one note the guy played.

(and I was sitting behind the mixing board)

 

One of the best sounding concerts I ever went to was Steely Dan. Roger Nichols himself was mixing the sound.

[UTS-D]

Sounds like a simple case of the sound guy sucking at his job.

[Rocky McDougall]

I know that in Rock music especially, most musicians think that loud sounds better, it get the audience in a frenzy, it covers mistakes by the musicians. It's not going to change, certainly I Can't change it, but I can walk out and I have done that quite a few times. I was at a Los Lonely Boys sound check at an outdoor venue "Stubbs BBQ in Austin, Tex. The volume literally knocked you back, there was nowhere to go and still see the stage. That was the fault of the soundman, no one else could be blamed, If I were choosing a sound man, I would first get his hearing checked professionally. Why have a deaf soundman?

Rocky

[yourlord]

I saw Pantera at an amphitheater here in Atlanta back in the mid 90's. It was so loud, and mind you I love it loud, that it literally hurt. I can stand in my basement with open ears and my 700W rig, both guiitarists pushing full bore on their 200W rigs, and the drummer throwing down hard and not even flinch. But, man, it even hurt when you plugged your ears at that concert. It was impossible to enjoy the show for the stabbing pains in your head from it.

 

 

[UTS-D]

Just before the new year, I went and one of my favorite bands. I don't know if the soung guy was drunk or just overly excited, but he had the PA so loud that the speakers were clipping and the music was just falling apart. It was horrible.

 

I like loud music but if it's too loud, then it's just painful and a waste of time.

[lug]

I am routinely disapointed by bass reproduction in large loud shows. The best I ever heard was an ELP reunion tour. Every bass nte sounded like it was fron a high end audiophile system. The worst was an Ozzfest a few years back. Don't think I could distinguish one clear bass note the whole night.

[Bottomgottem]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/bottomgottem/farside.gif

 

from The Far Side by Gary Larson

[totallyfrozen]

The last rock concert I went to was only 2 weeks ago. A group called 7th Day Slumber. It was in a performing arts theater (an opera house). The facility was designed and built for GREAT acoustics. I've seen some plays and even ballets there and they sounded GREAT! As far as the rock show went:

The sound man was, undoubtedly, one of the Union guys that works at the Performing Arts Center.

Just like you said, the bass was overpowering! I'm mean...I like bass...we all do or we wouldn't be here but WOW! The drums were loud too...but other than the power cords, you couldn't hear any guitar work. The singing was audible but definitely not out in front.

It was a bass-fest!

I thought the band I was in got bad sound mixes because we played in sleezy bars...I guess everybody has to contend with it.

 

One of the best things my band ever had was my close, personal friends in the audience. They didn't know the sound guy, and they didn't have any problems telling what rocked and what sucked. Wouldn't you love to have that at EVERY gig?

 

Oh...

The WORST one was when I saw Van Halen in an INDOOR sports area! That's right...a CONCRETE sports complex! That was ridiculous!...yeah...the bass was loud but Eddie's guitar was so shrill that it was really painful. I left the stadium and listen to it from the beer garden in the corridor! That concert (ticket) was a birthday present...and I HATED it! LOL!

[Brocko777]

It is definitely a special knack that is needed for a soundman.

I've seen many a groups from Spyro Gyra to Slayer (just a few weeks ago). Many at the same venue when it was LOUD but CLEAR.. two very big differences. And then I've been to the LOUD and Your Head Shoved up a Cow's Butt show where the only thing recognizable was the white noise between songs!

I love hearing bass and feeling it in my chest BUT if its killing and cancelling out every other player on the stage I'll take a little less volume and an audible show.

Allot of concert goers want to be deaf after they leave the show. I think 'most' rate how good it was by that lack of hearing or tendinitis!* Thats the ear ringing thing, right?

Okay, how about tinnitus.

Brocko

 

*and that is why I am not a Doctor.

[Tom Capasso]

I've not been to big rock shows in a long time. I saw the Allmans at the Beacon a few years ago and it sounded a bit out of balance (not enough organ) but clear and good. I saw Elvis Costello at the Beacon last year and was disappointed - bass was indistinct and the overall sound wasn't great. The bass got a bit better by the third song, but it was a bit too loud. The "A Walk Down Abbey Road" show I saw at a local venue was a bit loud but everything sounded pretty good.

 

I suspect (from my own sound attempts with my band) that this isn't as easy as it looks. Just the same, the "big" pros should have it together.

 

Tom

[jcadmus]

I saw Swithfoot and Copeland at the Webster Theater in Hartford last Friday.

 

Copeland's bass player was a little loud, but he had such a gorgeous sound (J-bass through an SVT) that I didn't mind.

 

Tim Foreman's sound was dead-on (Lakland w/Darkstars through a GK rig)and the mix was perfect.

 

I guess it all depends on the room, the bass player and the sound guy.

[alexclaber]

There are numerous reasons why this continues to be a problem. The most fundamental one is excessive SPL. This causes problems such as severe standing waves and reverb/echoes, resonances in the room/building structure/fabric, LF feedback loops between stage structure and mains and mics on stage, feedback between mains etc and drum kit.

 

Also tied in with excessive SPL for the venue is excessive SPL for the PA/SR system. Basically if you push woofers too hard, be they in bass amps or in SR subwoofers, they suffer from harmonic distortion which muddies up the midbass. For instance, if you put a loud 60Hz signal in (typical kick drum fundamental) you'll not only get 60Hz out, but also 120Hz, 180Hz, 240Hz and so on. This creates mud and boom which covers up the true sound that should be in this part of the frequency spectrum.

 

And finally, the other common problem is incorrect positioning of subwoofers. Subwoofers should always be placed less than 2.8 feet or more than 56 feet apart to ensure mutual coupling or avoid frequency cancellation. They should also be placed next to a boundary unless this is impossible.

 

Alex