Orchestral Flourishes

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

It's recently occurred to me that out of the many things that have been resurrected from the 1970s (music, fashion, muscle cars, furnishings, etc) one thing is conspicuously absent: orchestral passages in records. I remembered thinking about this when I saw the "New Vintage Neil" thread.

 

Seems like you couldn't really avoid them, in the early 70s. In Neil's case, it was "A Man Needs A Maid" and "There's A World", both from the "Harvest" album. But he wasn't the only one, not by a long chalk. The Stones were always dabbling with it, as were of course, The Beatles and, of course Deep Purple (another tangent on another recent thread) Even Joni Mitchell got into the act.

 

But what's happened to orchestral passages?

 

Personally, I suspect it was a way for rock musicians to look cultured, but then I am a bit of a cynic. But what's happened to orchestral passages?

 

With today's technology, anybody could have orchestral passages, for the price of a fairly standard keyboard. So why haven't they made a come back? Have you ever had an orchestral passage on one of your own songs? Even bowed strings will do, never mind the timpanii! If so, how did it go? And if you didn't, or wouldn't... why wouldn't you?

[Shoes]

Musicians in most of the bands that come to mind were brought together at art schools, universities or other like minded institutions. You do need to understand what an orchestra is in order to compose for one... at least that's my opinion.

 

Now they find each other watching TV in somebody's basement.

 

 

 

Seems people are infinitely stupider these days.

I could be wrong.

 

[Eric Iverson]

Well, I think a lot of times rock bands HIRED people with the necessary training to write orchestral passages, since most rock musicians are from a very different background.

 

For better and for worse.. for example, I know classical musicians who, in spite of their musical skills, are afraid to come up with parts. Even if you tell them, "holy )@(#$*, man, you can play Bach and Beethoven, why can't you come up with a part in the key of C?" Whereas a rock or jazz musician would just go for the gusto, and then edit it later.

 

This is not to say I wouldn't like to be able to write out orchestral passages, especially since I like to listen to symphonies sometimes!

[Dr. Ellwood]

My band uses them because they where a part of allot of tunes from that era and doing all classic rock we really have to. The keyboard player has that all handled and it's really very nice, sounds great comming through our large PA system. Oh and yes, I do feel very cultured when he plays those parts, in fact right after that I'm almost unapproachable!

[Strategery]

Yeah, I agree with you Kramer.

 

Even Grunge would throw in Cellos...go figure...and how about Metallica and Aerosmith? :grin:

 

How about ELO? They were based on it and did some really original stuff that's STILL getting air play...ala...Turn To Stone and so much of their music.

Kansas is another that comes to mind. Also very original.

 

I've recently started playing keys about 2 years back and have actually found myself gravitating toward strings, horns, and other sounds to spice up my recording.

 

Popular Music is DUE for something NEW to break out.

I hate those spells where everything you hear seems so Stale.

I think that's why it's good for a musician's inspirational side to go check out different genres of music and take it in a different direction through influence and motivation.

 

This would be a good project for the Guitar Forum & Keyboard Forum to get together on.

On another forum, I've seen guys from 5 countries collaborate, write, and perform all the parts of an original song that turned out very good!

 

Personally, I think orchestral passages, if written and inserted properly, can make for some powerful and emotionally stimulating music. The kind that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up which we all strive to achieve.

 

After all...what would RADAR LOVE be without the horn section? :grin:

 

Anyway, good post and my time is up.

 

Randy S.

[fantasticsound]

Well, I think a lot of times rock bands HIRED people with the necessary training to write orchestral passages, since most rock musicians are from a very different background...

 

Case in point; Even a classically trained pianist like Elton John relied on the genius of Paul Buckmaster to create those immense, lush, orchestral parts on many of his songs from the 1970's. In the late 1980's, long after he'd abandoned full orchestral sections in his music, EJ toured across Australia with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, playing half a concert of new or relatively current material, then joined by the orchestra to play the complete arrangements of the old tunes. They made a wonderful record of it called Live In Australia. Well worth getting if you're even an occasional EJ fan. In part because the songs were new again for EJ, making the performances full of energy. I only wish I could've seen one of those concerts in person.

 

Despite the success of the tour and album, to my knowledge EJ hasn't returned to using full orchestral arrangements in any of his subsequent albums. I don't know why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had more to do with the cost of touring with a partial or full orchestra vs. the typical 5 to 8 piece rock band.

[NMcGuitar]

I wouldn't be surprised if it had more to do with the cost of touring with a partial or full orchestra vs. the typical 5 to 8 piece rock band.

 

Very astute point, Neil

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

For better and for worse.. for example, I know classical musicians who, in spite of their musical skills, are afraid to come up with parts. Even if you tell them, "holy )@(#$*, man, you can play Bach and Beethoven, why can't you come up with a part in the key of C?" Whereas a rock or jazz musician would just go for the gusto, and then edit it later.

 

Yes, I've noticed the same thing myself. And if you throw them into a jam session witout specifying the key beforehand, they are often incapable of telling when they are off key and hitting nothing but bum notes. Very strange.

[Justus A. Picker]

 

There is still rock utilizing orchestral stuff out there if you look in the right places. Jethro Tull still tosses it into the mix as does Ian Anderson on his solo stuff (he also plays orchestral gigs). Yes' last(?) album, "Magnification" used the orchestra as an equal partner, or member of the band, to good effect. Glass Harp's "Strings Attached" was recorded live with a symphony orchestra.

 

I am surprised that there isn't more of it. With products like GPO or Notion basically giving anyone with a PC based recording setup access to high quality orchestral samples at fairly affordable prices art/prog-rock should be making a comeback.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I am surprised that there isn't more of it. With products like GPO or Notion basically giving anyone with a PC based recording setup access to high quality orchestral samples at fairly affordable prices art/prog-rock should be making a comeback.

 

Yes, exactly. I guess one problem *I* have with orchestral passages (as opposed to songs arranged for a full orchestra) is that it feels like one is at the barrier, waiting for the train to pass. You're listening to a pop song and all of a sudden woodwinds and french horns and timpanii come in. A lot of the time it all feels a bit "pinned on" to me.

 

But there's nothing wrong with the concept per se.

[Eric Iverson]

It might be nice if some orchestral parts were used on modern rock tunes.

 

I think how well they worked on Beatles records - also including here string quartets and French horn solos etc.

 

Quite naturally they aren't always called for - but it's an option that shouldn't be discounted!

 

Maybe you don't hear it much these days because rock musicians thought in more grandiose terms back in the day. I once read that prior to the Beatles, rock musicians would be offended if you referred to what they did as "art" and a few years later would be offended if you implied that it WASN'T!

 

And I also read that when Paul McCartney was bragging about the success of "Yesterday", Ringo commented, "who does he think he is, Beethoven or somebody?"

 

I agree that rock is going through a stale period right now; but then again I don't hear enough current rock to speak authoritatively; mostly what I see on late night TV shows, 90% of which seems pretty derivative, and some of it very mediocre. But one five minute song at the end of Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien through the TV speakers is hardly a fair hearing!

[Rhino Madness]

I don't think they've ever disappeared. Bands kept on using orchestral parts here and there, especially strings and choirs, ranging from keyboard emulation to samples to even the real thing depending on the budget.

 

I can not vouch for the whole mainstream as a whole but, as a case in point, strings and choirs are an integral part of mainstream goth-rock act Evanescence's sound.

 

As a side note, their albums are really well produced with interlayering of piano, strings, choir, downtuned chugging guitars, clean guitars, various assortments of filtered noises, percussions and drums, etc. all of them supporting the main focus which is Amy Lee's emotive singing. Highly recommended!

 

Many top-act artists now perform live to a click track synchronizing various samples and recorded passages (even lead vocals ). So it would not seem difficult to incorporate orchestras for those so inclined.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I can not vouch for the whole mainstream as a whole but, as a case in point, strings and choirs are an integral part of mainstream goth-rock act Evanescence's sound.

 

As a side note, their albums are really well produced with interlayering of piano, strings, choir, downtuned chugging guitars, clean guitars, various assortments of filtered noises, percussions and drums, etc. all of them supporting the main focus which is Amy Lee's emotive singing. Highly recommended!

 

Oh... ok. I'll see if the library has their CDs. I'd always dismissed them as a bit of pop fluff, but that's based on their singles (Lithium and The One Where The Girl Falls Out The Building - I forget its name.) I've never listened to their albums. I'll look into it!

[Eric VB]

Ok, time to break out the stereotypes. Whee!

 

Classically trained musicians are taught to make music by reading standard music notation. I was in the school band, 5th through 12th grade, and that's the only way music was approached. We didn't need theory because there was never a call for an improvised solo. On the outside chance a piece of music did allow improv, a "suggested" solo was printed on the page to save the day.

 

It is at university that classical musicians finally receive formal theory training. But see what Wikipedia has to say about cadenzas; how they were originally meant to be improvised but now most people just play "canned" parts. So no, don't expect most classically trained musicians to feel comfortable sitting in on an open jam and just improv'ing.

 

On the other end of the spectrum is the popular musician. I don't mean "popular" as in just "pop"; I mean it in the broader sense of "non-classical". Popular musicians usually learn to play by ear. In every rock band I've been in since I was 11, the learning of songs always starts with "it goes like this" followed by a live demonstration. A chord chart is nice but it doesn't convey the rhythm, and without the proper rhythm you can't play the song correctly.

 

Some popular musicians learn to read standard notation, but a lot don't see the point to it. How does reading help in any practical way when playing popular music? [This is a never-ending debate so I won't go any further here.] So don't expect most popular musicians to feel comfortable sight reading a piece from "sheet music".

 

Jazz is a little of both, at least it is the way it is taught nowadays. [Jazz musicians from earlier eras, like swing, would probably laugh at the idea of having printed music. They committed their parts to memory and would pass them down orally/by ear to their replacements.] The jazz/stage band I was in from about 6th to 7th grade used sheet music for everything except the songs that the rhythm section played as a trio, like "Johnny B. Goode". I even have sheet music to "Smoke On The Water" from back then!

 

In high school jazz band we finally got some basic theory training and improv coaching. I know other programs start this a lot earlier, but I picked up most of that in private lessons long before then anyway. Of course at university is where jazz students really learn the shanizzle! A jazz musician is going to be equally comfortable playing from written music or in an open jam; just expect the unexpected.

[Eric VB]

(continued)

 

But not every performer is a songwriter, composer or arranger.

 

Just because someone plays violin in an orchestra doesn't mean they are proficient in orchestrating/arranging music for all the different parts in the orchestra. If you want classical orchestration, try talking to someone that studied music composition at university. [Yes, performance majors do study orchestration, but not to the extent that composition majors do.]

 

I really don't know a lot about modern jazz composers, but big bands seem to be dinosaurs and arranging for small jazz groups is more like arranging for other popular groups. I'm sure Chick Corea didn't write out note-for-note arrangements for Al Di Meola, Stanley Clarke and Lenny White when they were Return to Forever. He probably handed them a chord chart and said "it goes like this".

 

Where popular musicians freak out is in not knowing how to arrange for orchestra. In the typical rock band the rhythm guitar plays the chord, the lead guitar plays the riff/melody, and the bass plays bass. [i'm ignoring drums because percussion should be self-evident.] Who plays the chord in an orchestra? Well, probably 2nd+3rd violin, viola and perhaps cello. Who plays lead? Typically 1st violin. Who plays bass? Double bass and perhaps cello. And if wind instruments are included, they may play any of those roles depending on their characteristics. (I can tell you first hand that tuba will mostly be doubling double bass.)

 

But classical music isn't about having 1st violin play melody over a double bass bassline while everybody else plays block chords.

 

I remember one day we had a sub for band in high school. The sub was actually a musician and he organized the after-school "rock club". He decided it would be fun to orchestrate a jam in the one hour class period. Of course telling everybody to play a C major chord didn't get very far, as everybody needed to know exactly which note to play. After he got help figuring out how to write a C major chord in standard notation on the chalkboard, he went about assigning notes to each section. After some confusion about concert pitch and transposition, some headway was made. Keep in mind that there were probably about 25 different parts with all the different instruments and 1st/2nd/3rd/4th sections. Long story short, at the end of the hour we finally played a C major chord and the percussionists were thoroughly bored. Not quite the twelve-bar blues jam that was envisioned.

 

What happened? The classically trained musicians didn't know enough theory nor have any composition/arrangement experience to be able to write their own parts given a simple chord chart. The popular musician didn't know enough about standard notation and orchestration to be able to write all those parts. And even if he did, it still wouldn't have had the contrapuntal content that makes having a band/orchestra worthwhile.

[fantasticsound]

For better and for worse.. for example, I know classical musicians who, in spite of their musical skills, are afraid to come up with parts. Even if you tell them, "holy )@(#$*, man, you can play Bach and Beethoven, why can't you come up with a part in the key of C?" Whereas a rock or jazz musician would just go for the gusto, and then edit it later.

 

Yes, I've noticed the same thing myself. And if you throw them into a jam session witout specifying the key beforehand, they are often incapable of telling when they are off key and hitting nothing but bum notes. Very strange.

 

Ha! LOL!! Reminds me of a music business class I took in college. We were learning the process of a recording session. Various people in the class were chosen to write music, lyrics, lead the session, play an instrument on the session, sing, etc. I was going to write the music and play guitar. To keep it simple, I wrote a I-IV-V blues, recorded myself playing each part (three guitars, bass, my friend Johnny on keys and drum programming) onto Johnny's 4-track studio as a guide track. I wrote out the parts on my IBM AT (or was it an XT... I forget. ) and printed out a chart. We didn't have an opportunity to get together to practice even once.

 

It became apparent before the class in which we'd do the session that several people, the lyricist for one, had bailed on the project. I ended up writing some really bad lyrics just minutes before class.

 

There was one other guitarist, bass & drums... and a keyboard player who had brought a little Casio toy in to play. I shouldn't call her a keyboard player. She was a pianist. Exactly how you describe. Classically trained, had no idea what a I-IV-V Blues was let alone how to play one. I'd even used the chord names rather than numbers, but she had expected a written part to play. I probably could've provided one... if I'd had a few more months to write it! (Yeah, perhaps I shouldn't complain about her. I read music like a turtle runs. )

 

Somehow she managed to plink out a few notes almost in the groove. She absolutely refused to give a solo a try. It was probably best that way.

 

It shouldn't surprise anyone that this was hardly a masterpiece of music, but I was surprised at how well it did turn out. It would've been far better had she been comfortable jamming just a little bit.

[Eric VB]

In my opinion the greatest orchestrator of popular music (i.e. arranger of popular music for orchestral instruments) is John Paul Jones of Led Zeppelin fame.

 

Classical composers seem to lose the edginess when they orchestrate popular music. It tends to come out more like Hooked On Classics than, say, The Beatles with a cool horn section backing them up. At least in my experience.

 

Even George Martin has said his heart lies in classical music, not popular. And I was thoroughly unimpressed with his Love remixes. Sure, it was put together for a Cirque du Soleil stage show, but still.

 

Look at JPJ's The Thunderthief, his latest solo CD. He takes a heavy blues/rock piece -- in which he plays some mean slide guitar, might I add -- and slowly transitions and morphs it into a string piece. Maybe I don't get out often enough, but nobody does this better IMO.

 

The secret to Jones' success? I think it has to do with being able to have a broad enough interest in music to live in "both worlds": classical and popular. That, and dare I say it, genius talent.

[Guitarzan]

there is a cream you can get to help relieve Orchestral Flourishes.

it really works.

a friend of mine had it once.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Ok, time to break out the stereotypes. Whee!

 

Classically trained musicians are taught to make music by reading standard music notation. I was in the school band, 5th through 12th grade, and that's the only way music was approached. We didn't need theory because there was never a call for an improvised solo. On the outside chance a piece of music did allow improv, a "suggested" solo was printed on the page to save the day.

 

Sure, but it surprises me that the classical guys just don't seem to "noodle" on their spare time at all.

 

If they DID, then they'd be much better at doing improv solos.